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Grace Talinabupato: All right, we can start now. So, I just wanted to thank you again for finding time out of your day to meet with us, and just to give you a quick refresher, this oral history is a part of Unearthing Towson's History Project, which seeks to uncover and understand gaps in the archival record for the university. Grace Talinabupato: And today we'll be mainly focusing on your time in Sigma Alpha Mu, the creation of the Native American Student Association, otherwise known as NASA, and also your experience as an Afro-Indigenous person on campus. Grace Talinabupato: And before we get started, I wanted to quickly verify that you received the release form, and that you're okay with us recording this interview, and that we may also take notes while you're speaking. William Jones: Yes, and I signed the release form, and I'm okay with the recording and taking notes.

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Grace Talinabupato: Alright, thank you. Alright, so we have approximately 15 questions regarding your time and experience at Towson State University from the late 1980s to early 1990s. Grace Talinabupato: And do you have any questions for us before we begin? William Jones: No, but, I do want to say that I'm in Annapolis. I just left a tour of the Naval Academy that was supposed to have ended at 2:30, but it's gone way, way longer than that. William Jones: Our tour guide is phenomenal. But anyway, I'm in my car, doing this.

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William Jones: So my wife might show up any minute now. Grace Talinabupato: Alright, that's okay, thank you. Okay. Grace Talinabupato: Alright, so please go ahead and share with us your name, the years you were at Towson, your majors or minors, and what extracurricular activities you were a part of as a student. William Jones: Okay.

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William Jones: My name is William Jones, though the time I was at Towson for the first year, I was William C. Jones. William Jones: But, I eventually got rid of the C, because when I joined the National Guard William Jones: I confused the military because William Jones: my middle name was not on my birth certificate.

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William Jones: It was only on my Social Security card. So anyway, there was a lot of confusion, so I got rid of the C. William Jones: So that's why I might have two names when you look for me William Jones: using Towson State University's, you know, archives back then. Grace Talinabupato: Okay.

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William Jones: And... Okay. William Jones: And what else did you want? I'm sorry, what was the Grace Talinabupato: Oh, it's okay. William Jones: question?

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Grace Talinabupato: Your majors or minors? William Jones: Okay. William Jones: I was a very ambitious young man, and I wanted to do a double major in economics and political science. Grace Talinabupato: Okay, cool.

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Grace Talinabupato: And what extracurricular activities were you a part of as a student? William Jones: Okay, I was very involved. I actually got a couple different scholarships specifically William Jones: to ensure that I could stay on campus and be involved William Jones: in campus life.

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William Jones: So they gave me the money so I didn't have to work and worry about that stuff in order to participate in campus life, so William Jones: I joined, right off the bat, I pledged, William Jones: SAM, you know, Sigma Alpha Mu fraternity, which was a historical Jewish fraternity. William Jones: So… But when I joined, it was not exclusively Jewish. Half my brothers were Jewish, and the other half were, you know, Christian,

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William Jones: and a lot of them were in the ROTC program. William Jones: So I also joined the Black Student Union because there was no… William Jones: There was nothing for minorities at the time, except for the Black Student Union. And I joined, because when I went to their first meeting, they were so welcoming, and so friendly, and they William Jones: assigned me a big brother, and him and I, you know, I chatted with him. I would, like, just call him up and say, hey, why are they doing this and this? And he would explain to me,

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William Jones: you know, a lot of the things that were happening, because nobody in my family had gone to college. Nobody in my family had even graduated from high school. William Jones: And so he was a really big help, and they provided me a lot of support William Jones: when my… My first year that I was at Towson. And I also joined the… William Jones: The next year, I joined the ROTC program, I joined the National Guard, and I eventually…

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William Jones: I also joined the outdoors... William Jones: I forget what they called it. I think it was called Outdoor Adventures. It was a club where they did all kinds of hiking and kayaking, rock climbing, all that stuff. And that was a lot of fun. William Jones: And I eventually… I even got a job for the summer William Jones: working for the admissions department, they had a program called Project Marj. I don't know if they still have it. Do they?

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Grace Talinabupato: I am not sure, but that is one of the things that we wanted to talk about. William Jones: Okay. Grace Talinabupato: And we just wanted to ask, what was the purpose of Project Marj? William Jones: Alright, it was offered to all freshman students, as well as transfer students. So, students would sign up for it, it was in the summertime, it was a 5-day-long camping trip.

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William Jones: So, the students, we would get them on Monday morning. William Jones: And we would do a layout of all the camping gear. So we would show them how to pack a rucksack, how to, William Jones: you know, how to correctly wear the rucksack, how to wear it to carry heavy equipment, or how to wear it if you didn't have any heavy equipment, you know, to make it high on your shoulders or low on your shoulders. William Jones: And we took them to the Shenandoah National Forest.

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William Jones: And we camped for Monday night, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and then Friday, we did a 12-mile march, or a 12-mile hike out of the mountains, to the vehicles, and then came back to Towson. William Jones: But William Jones: in that time period, we taught them how to set up a camp. William Jones: In the beginning, we would do all the cooking for them, but by the end, they did all the cooking, show them how to properly set up, you know, bear bags.

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William Jones: So we did a lot of low-impact camping, teaching them how to do that, and it was… And we did a lot of exercises, team building, we did some talks. William Jones: I was practicing, William Jones: I would do some smoke or pipe ceremonies when I was there, talk to them about Native American religion, and, you know... William Jones: So I… That was the little thing that I added to the whole mix. And

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William Jones: so that's what we did, and it was... By the end of it, those… It was usually, like, 10 students per group. William Jones: And those 10 students, like, knew each other. They were, like, family by the end of that time period. And so they could… When they started school in the fall, they had friends, you know, that they would have people that they knew already. L.X. Hammond: Do you think it fulfilled that purpose? Like, I guess, like, L.X.: the mission for Project Marj was to prepare students for

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L.X.: camping trips and, like, going outside and being outdoors. William Jones: Oh, I think it definitely did, because a lot of them even joined William Jones: the Adventures Club, you know, the Outdoor Adventure Club, and I went camping… I would go camping with some of the people that I met that summer, and we went camping in the local Baltimore area. We camped at a couple parks in Baltimore City. William Jones: I knew the park ranger there, so he would let me on to stay on the park overnight with my,

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William Jones: you know, with the people. William Jones: So, yeah, I think it did, and I could tell, like, some of the people on Monday and Tuesday, they were really quiet, they were not very confident in the outdoors, but by the end of it, you know, William Jones: they were, like, the main ones setting up the camp and making sure the bear bag was high enough in the trees, and so it was, you definitely could see William Jones: them lose their fear of

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William Jones: the woods, you know, the fear of the forest, and be much more comfortable with doing what they needed to do to survive out there. William Jones: So, I think it was. L.X. Hammond: Getting more in touch with nature, yeah. William Jones: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we... It was a really fun…

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William Jones: And we also did rock climbing, so we would... There were certain places that we would take them to, and we would set up the ropes William Jones: and have them… William Jones: Well, we practiced… They would climb up the ropes using protection, and we would be there to watch them, and and also come down the mountain, doing a, you know, rappel if they could, and some people weren't William Jones: very comfortable with doing the rappel, but we would, like, lower them down with ropes, with someone on belay at the bottom, so we could bring them down real slow. And, so…

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William Jones: And it's... We've been doing them on the… William Jones: The rock climbs were something like 3,000 feet up, so when you were… William Jones: So it looked… You probably only could… William Jones: The furthest you would fall would be, like, 150 feet, which is still pretty far and could really kill you. But the… When you're out there on the rocks, it looks like you're literally 3,000 feet up. You know, you can...

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William Jones: You can't really see the ledge that you're gonna land on, you just see the outside, you know, that 3,000 feet down to the valley floor. So… William Jones: It was very beautiful, but also very scary. William Jones: But they did it. L.X.: Wow.

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Grace Talinabupato: I noticed that you mentioned the Towson Adventure Club. Did it have any similarities with Project Marj, and what exactly did you do in that club? William Jones: It... William Jones: No, it didn't really do... There was nothing… We would meet and just talk about the different things that we wanted to do. Like, we would come together, and basically, it was like sharing William Jones: what all the different opportunities in the area there were for rock climbing, kayaking, hiking, and stuff like that.

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William Jones: So I can't remember ever doing… We never did it… We would just get together and eat. William Jones: We usually brought lunch or something like that, and we would just talk about what was going on, and we would do some planning on, like, if someone wanted to go on a kayak trip, you know, those individuals would break off and do some planning on William Jones: where they were gonna meet, who was gonna bring the kayaks, and all that kind of stuff. Grace Talinabupato: Alright, and I know you spoke fondly of Sigma Alpha Mu. Were there any big events that you can recall while being in that fraternity?

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William Jones: Oh my god, yes, we had awesome parties. And William Jones: so, we did a lot of parties, we did a lot of parties with the sororities, and William Jones: we did road trips, like, we went to College Park William Jones: wor a party down there, with

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William Jones: our brothers on Fraternity Row. We went to Temple, we went to William Jones: Pittsburgh, so… William Jones: We did a lot of stuff like that, but we also... I got a chance to run the William Jones: pledge program.

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William Jones: So, I got to formalize a lot of what the pledges had to do, and we brought in, like, study hours and different things like that. Mandatory study hours. And we got rid of all the mandatory drinking. William Jones: So, because when I first… When I pledged, William Jones: I did not drink. And so, at first, they didn't believe me. They were like, oh my god, a college student who doesn't drink, but I, you know, I'm Native American, I don't drink, so William Jones: they accepted that. And so, when I did it, it was,

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William Jones: you know, a one-off type thing, but when I took over, I made it, like, nobody was forced to drink. William Jones: Because there were other pledges with me who didn't want to drink William Jones: at times, but were… Had a tremendous amount of peer pressure put on them so that they did drink when they didn't want to. And that was... William Jones: I didn't believe in that, and we… When I became the pledge master, that was gotten rid of, and we put it in our rules, no more mandatory drinking. No more peer pressure drinking.

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William Jones: So William Jones: we did that, and also I joined the… I got elected to the Greek Council. I was the vice president at the Greek Council, and William Jones: I took the Greek Council on a mini Project Marj. Well, I took them out, we did an overnight camping trip, and we did a bunch of confidence-building exercise, you know, we did silly stuff too, like hug tag, and so it was... William Jones: We had a great time, and everybody loved it, and so

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William Jones: it was a really, really good time. People would refer to that... William Jones: At the time, I went by Bill, so everybody called it Bill's Wonderful Adventure. William Jones: Was what... And... But anyway, William Jones: I enjoyed working with them also.

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William Jones: So I had a really good time at the Greek community. Actually, too good of a time. William Jones: I partied too much, and eventually that got me into big trouble. William Jones: Yes. L.X.: Yikes.

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L.X.: So in our research, we noticed, that Sigma Alpha Mu had claimed to be the oldest. L.X.: Fraternity on campus. L.X.: What was the draw for you to join Sigma Alpha Mu? William Jones: One, when I found out that it was

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William Jones: a historical Jewish college, that interested me. William Jones: And also, I had gone to the other fraternities, and it seemed like William Jones: there was a type, William Jones: you know, like, everybody was… You know… I don't wanna…

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William Jones: They all seem like white, privileged William Jones: a-holes. And I, you know, I didn't want to spend my time with people like that. So when I went to Sigma Alpha Mu, like, one of the William Jones: brothers there who eventually became my big brother was this gigantic William Jones: white guy. And with a bald head. He was a bouncer at some bar in Baltimore. I think it was called The Horse You Rode In On.

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William Jones: And so it was him. And then, there was these… A couple other William Jones: guys that look like if someone had said… Even if no one had told you that this was a Jewish fraternity, you would look at those guys and say, those guys are gonna become accountants William Jones: in Manhattan. You know, they looked like, you know, in the Bronx. And so it was... The people were so vastly different. And each person seemed to be unique. And when I talked to them, you know, they talked about real stuff. William Jones: And, you know, and then, like I said, there were the ROTC guys, and I'd always knew I was gonna go in the military at some point. My time was… I thought I was gonna be an officer, you know, a commissioned officer in the military.

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William Jones: So William Jones: anyway, that's what grabbed me, was just that they were unique. You know, they were all William Jones: individuals. And the Jewish part, I had never met any Jews, you know, at the time, so I was also very interested in just learning more about the religion and stuff, so William Jones: that was the draw for me.

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L.X.: Yeah, that's really cool. It's similar to how the Black Student Union sort of, like, welcomed you and provided a sense of community as well. William Jones: That's right. Yes. L.X.: And how was your final year at Towson and in Sigma Alpha Mu? We did, like, find some records with Sigma Alpha Mu about, like... L.X.: There is some controversy, like, some, like, light controversy, but yeah, if you'd like to share

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William Jones: Uh... L.X.: your experience. William Jones: Well, I don't remember Sigma Alpha Mu having any controversy, but of course, I left in '90… William Jones: I guess it's 1990… 1990 was my...

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William Jones: The spring of 1990 was my last official William Jones: time at the school, where I was an official student. William Jones: Because that summer, I went to basic training, and William Jones: I was supposed to be in basic training

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William Jones: for the summer, it was only supposed to be 2 weeks, or, correction, 2 months, and then I was supposed to come back and start school in the fall. William Jones: But at the same time, I was under probation at that time, academic probation. And I was on William Jones: probation with my fraternity, also, because I… One of the things, too, I put in there was that brothers had to maintain at least a 2.0 grade point average. And I broke that rule William Jones: by having, you know, like, a 1.5, grade point average, if that. And, so I was on probation for the fraternity, I was on probation with the school.

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William Jones: And I had a problem in basic training, in that my... The weapon I had William Jones: was bent. It had a slight bent in William Jones: the barrel of the weapon. William Jones: And I didn't know it. You couldn't look at it and tell. I mean, an expert probably could, but the… Just a…

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William Jones: You know, I didn't notice it, my drill sergeant didn't notice it. William Jones: And, so when I went to qualify, even though I had qualified in the National Guard multiple times, I always fired expert. I've been shooting a gun since I was, like, 7 years old. William Jones: And so when I went to qualify at basic training, I had to shoot 23, and I shot 17. William Jones: And, where normally I shoot, you know,

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William Jones: 32, or something like, you know, 36. So the... William Jones: They kept giving me opportunities to shoot, and I slowly improved. I even got up to 22, William Jones: because I started Kentucky windaging my shots. Every time the bullet would… I would watch to see where the bullet struck the ground, and even though it wasn't my sight picture, I knew that if it struck to the left, William Jones: I would shoot more to the right, and I just Kentucky windaged it to try to get better shots, but I never could get that 23.

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William Jones: And my drill sergeant, because I had never… I didn't shoot really bad. He said, well, if the weapon was bent, it would… I would have been… I would have only been able to shoot at, you know, maybe 2 or 3. I wouldn't have been able to shoot hardly any targets at all. So, since I was doing so well, obviously, the weapon wasn't bent. That's what my drill sergeant told me. William Jones: But the bastard never let me have another weapon William Jones: to prove that there was something wrong with the one that I had. So I ended up getting recycled to another William Jones: basic training company, where when I went to the range the first time, I shot, you know, 32 out of 40. I scored sharpman, sharpshooter, and far surpassed what

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William Jones: I was supposed to shoot. So... Because I had a new weapon. William Jones: But the damage had already been done, and I had… So what ended up happening was I graduated from basic training in October, so I missed that ability… My time to go back to school. So now I had November and December on my hands, and William Jones: I just did not have William Jones: the will to go back to school, even when time came in January for me to start the next semester.

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William Jones: So I never went back to school, never went back to Towson, and eventually decided to go on active duty. And I went into the Army William Jones: in 1991. William Jones: But that's where the Native American Society pops in. William Jones: We started… I don't remember exactly, but I started the Native American Society with my Ponca brother,

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William Jones: John Moore, who was a graduate student at the time I was an undergraduate student, and John, William Jones: him and I went through the paperwork to get a room so that we could meet. And we sent out flyers and different things like that and advertised it, and we were trying to get all... William Jones: Because the admissions department, they wouldn't give me the names of all the Native American students, but they did tell me that there was, like, 160 Native American students. William Jones: So, we put out flyers and we tried to reach those individuals.

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William Jones: And we didn't have a whole lot of luck, but we did get a lot of people come to our meetings. It was just a lot of people that were interested in Native American culture, and just wanted to learn more about Native Americans, which… That was fine too. William Jones: So we did that, and we took a bunch of those. We did things like, we did sweat lodge ceremonies, we would go down to William Jones: the Pamunkey Indians and the Mattaponi Indians in Virginia. We would go to their reservations down there. They had state-recognized reservations. William Jones: And we did sweat lodge ceremonies and pipe ceremonies and everything down there with the members,

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William Jones: and we met every… I think it was every week we met, and we would talk, and even when I wasn't a student, I still went to those meetings, and that's… In one of those meetings in June, William Jones: I don't know, maybe it was May of '91 is where I met my wife, Suzanne. William Jones: And at that meeting, we had... There was William Jones: a powwow in Pennsylvania, the Delaware Indians, the Lenape, Lenni Lenape Indians were having a powwow in Pennsylvania.

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William Jones: And I coordinated with Suzanne, because I didn't have a car, and she did, William Jones: to drive John and I William Jones: up to there, and we camped out that weekend at the powwow grounds, William Jones: and we started dating after that

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William Jones: weekend, and eventually got married a few months later. William Jones: And been married now for 33 years. William Jones: Yeah, I think it is 33. It's gonna be 30… No. William Jones: 34 years! Yeah, '91… October '91

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William Jones: to October 2025, yup, 34 years. L.X.: Happy belated anniversary. Grace Talinabupato: Yeah, congratulations! William Jones: Yes, I can't believe she hasn't killed me yet. It's incredible.

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Grace Talinabupato: That actually ties into our next question. We wanted to talk about your experience as a Native American on campus, due to Towson being a predominantly white institution, and we wanted to ask, what exactly motivated you to start an organization for Native American students? William Jones: Alright, I wanted to… William Jones: I really, you know, I present as white. In our culture, we call it passing. I pass as white. So William Jones: it...

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William Jones: When I was a really small child, it bothered me that I didn't look like the rest of my family. William Jones: And I got picked on for being white, so… William Jones: But as I got older, and realized that William Jones: the dominant culture is white, I realized that being white had a lot of advantages for me. So most of the time when I was on campus at Towson, I never... I just let people think that I was white. You know, it didn't really come up very often.

00:28:31.420 - 00:29:04.230

William Jones: But I was always proud to be Native, and when it did come up, I would proudly say that I was Native. William Jones: And I wanted to meet more Native people, because I know that I felt really isolated at times. I really missed my Native community. William Jones: And William Jones: so I knew that there were probably other Native people there, felt the same way, so that's why we did the Native American Society, was in hopes that we could connect with

00:29:04.510 - 00:29:37.110

William Jones: other Native people. William Jones: Plus, too, William Jones: I had my own selfish reasons. I wanted to meet a Native American girl, and a lot of the women in my old neighborhood, they really did not William Jones: value education. I didn't have a lot in common with them. So I didn't want to have children with them. But I thought at Towson, if there was someone there,

00:29:37.220 - 00:30:18.970

William Jones: a Native woman that, you know, I could connect with and, you know, maybe… And I… So William Jones: I was looking for a date, and it didn't work out. You know, for a long… First, William Jones: you know, year or so that we had the organization, I really did not meet any Native women that I was interested in. And so it wasn't until the very end William Jones: that I actually found someone that was, like, super awesome and Native, and and my wife is part white also, just like me, and

00:30:19.290 - 00:30:54.870

William Jones: she… William Jones: I did not... When she first came into the room, she did not grab my attention, you know? I was working on a pair of moccasins, and I was just, you know, nope… Everybody that came in, I wasn't interested in anyone that came in, so I just kept working on my moccasins. I wasn't even sitting in the circle. William Jones: My brother had set up the chairs in a circle, and everybody was having an opportunity to talk. William Jones: But then, my wife started talking, and she started talking about how it felt to be a half-breed, or be someone who is part

00:30:55.070 - 00:31:33.640

William Jones: Native and white, and living in a white society, and how she just started... She was articulating something William Jones: that I felt in my heart and never been able to put into words myself. She was, like, saying exactly how I felt. And, she made me stop what I was doing and look, and to see, who is this person? And so I saw her, and, William Jones: you know, she was pretty, and William Jones: she was really super intelligent, and

00:31:33.810 - 00:31:58.310

William Jones: that's attractive, for me. I think smart women are very attractive, and William Jones: so, anyway, I was saying to myself, I gotta get to know this person better. So William Jones: that was my motivation in the beginning, and it did finally, in the end, work out for me. William Jones: I was looking for a wife.

00:32:01.050 - 00:32:32.130

L.X.: When was NASA founded? So, we found some research on L.X.: the Native American Society in a TowerLight article from April 1992. L.X.: But we saw also, like, Native American Student Association, Native American Society, so what… So did you found it with, like, Native American Society, and then it L.X.: went to NASA?

00:32:33.360 - 00:33:05.950

William Jones: I... Yes, '92, I was already in Panama. William Jones: So, I left, in October of '91 is when I left the United States. William Jones: I actually… That's not true. In October of '91, I went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. William Jones: They sent me home because the airplane that was gonna take us to Panama,

00:33:06.150 - 00:33:49.640

William Jones: there was some problem with it, so instead of us staying there and being extra duty for 12 days, they gave us 12 days of advance leave. So I came home, got married, and then went back to Fort Jackson, got on the airplane, and then got to Panama in late October William Jones: of '91, and I stayed there until '94. So John Moore William Jones: was the person left back at Towson to run the Native American Society, and that's what we called it, when we first established it. William Jones: So now there were other people there, and I don't know when John

00:33:50.140 - 00:34:14.790

William Jones: left Towson. I don't know when he got his master's degree, when he graduated, but he William Jones: should have graduated right around that time, either in that December of '91 or May of '92. William Jones: So maybe the people who William Jones: took over once we were gone.

00:34:15.510 - 00:34:46.770

William Jones: Maybe they changed the name or something? I don't know. But we always… William Jones: We called it the Native American Society, and I think we… William Jones: The reason we called it a society rather than association is society was more like family. Association, William Jones: that just implies that you have a bunch of people that have something in common, where society is something where you have much stronger

00:34:46.920 - 00:34:58.720

William Jones: ties that bind you. William Jones: So that's why we wanted to use society. L.X.: Yeah, that makes sense. L.X.: Yeah, that's very thoughtful.

00:34:59.750 - 00:35:17.350

L.X.: And so when exactly was the Native American Society founded? William Jones: When was it founded? William Jones: That's a damn good question. William Jones: I can't...

00:35:23.460 - 00:35:46.690

William Jones: I think… William Jones: Well, it has to be… It was in 1990. William Jones: And so that's about as good as I can give you, 1990. William Jones: This is my wife. Hey. Offscreen: Hey, we can't just sit here forever. William Jones: Yeah.

00:35:46.840 - 00:35:56.100

Offscreen: So I'm going to get ice cream. William Jones: Okay. Can you give me something chocolate? William Jones: And bring it back here? Offscreen: Yeah. William Jones: Thank you. William Jones: You're wonderful.

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William Jones: See, I told you, she's a good woman. Grace Talinabupato: [laughter] L.X.: And you co-founded it with John Moore, right? William Jones: Yes, John Wesley Moore. John W. Moore.

00:36:09.310 - 00:36:20.640

William Jones: And I can give you his contact information, too. L.X.: That would be great. William Jones: Alright. Grace Talinabupato: And

00:36:21.170 - 00:36:48.900

Grace Talinabupato: I wanted to quickly ask, was there any support outside of the Native American Society for Native American students attending the university, or was there any, like, support at all for you guys? William Jones: No. William Jones: No. But the university did have... William Jones: I got a scholarship from the university, it was like $2,000.

00:36:49.130 - 00:37:14.870

William Jones: And it was for minorities, and it was William Jones: a scholarship that, like I said, allowed us to be a part of campus life. William Jones: So, it was… William Jones: So that was one thing that the university did that I thought was pretty awesome.

00:37:15.120 - 00:37:47.890

William Jones: But other than that, no. William Jones: No, if there was an… I mean, I was very involved with, getting in contact with the admissions department and everything, trying to learn more about, William Jones: you know, how to contact the Native people on campus. William Jones: And I'm sure if there would have been any other resources for Native American people, they would have told me, but nobody ever did, and

00:37:48.050 - 00:38:25.450

William Jones: I didn't know of any other, so I'm gonna say a big fat no. There was nothing, but that's… When we asked them for that room and told them what we wanted to do, they were very supportive in that. They, you know, there was no… William Jones: We got that almost immediately, and I think John might have even been… They might have given him something like, I think the Student Union might have given us, like, $20 a week so that we could buy snacks and drinks. William Jones: So they were very helpful in that aspect. William Jones: But other than…

00:38:25.450 - 00:38:50.470

William Jones: Yep. William Jones: There was nothing out there until we initiated to get something. L.X.: I also wanted to ask, L.X.: for the Native American Society, did it coincide with the revival of Lumbee federal recognition in the late 80s? Like, was that maybe another additional reason for it?

00:38:50.910 - 00:39:23.490

William Jones: No. William Jones: No, we didn't... We weren't motivated by that at all. William Jones: You know, our fight for recognition has been going on, oh my god, since the 1880s, you know. William Jones: So, when we survived the aftermath of the Civil War, because a lot of Lumbees were conscripted,

00:39:23.730 - 00:40:05.130

William Jones: kidnapped William Jones: out of our tribal areas, which were the, swampy areas around the Lumber River in Robinson County, William Jones: the Burnt Swamp Township area. The Home Guard would go along, which was like the militia. They were made up of, like, wounded Confederate soldiers, or William Jones: a Confederate that was wealthy enough to buy his place in the Home Guard so he didn't have to do any real fighting. They would go around and grab Indian farmers,

00:40:05.130 - 00:40:54.800

William Jones: you know, right out of the field. I had a great-great-great-grandfather that was working his field, and they came and snatched him away, William Jones: leaving his plow still hooked up to his horses William Jones: in the field. And our… The family went looking for him, found the plow and the horses and everything, and had no idea what happened to their father. And he, like, 3 months later, was finally able to get a message back to his family, saying, hey, I've been William Jones: conscripted into the Confederate Army. Because he was Indian, and he did not volunteer to go into the Confederate Army, they put him with black soldiers, a lot of them were slaves, and

00:40:54.930 - 00:41:29.640

William Jones: on building fortifications on the Atlantic Ocean. William Jones: So William Jones: that's a lot of Lumbees, a lot of Indians there at the time did not want to… You know, they saw the war between the North and the South as a fight between two white brothers. They had nothing to do with it. They didn't want to participate in it. William Jones: But a lot of them were forced into it, and that's what caused, like, a mini-rebellion, where you have Henry Berry Lowry leading war parties against local

00:41:29.780 - 00:42:12.470

William Jones: white farmers and plantations and stealing… They would go around and steal from the rich white farmers and bring it back and feed the people who were hungry in their areas. And then, of course, when the war ended, when all those Confederate soldiers came home, William Jones: they wreaked havoc on the Native community. They would go into the swamps and kill people. William Jones: And they especially like to attack Native American William Jones: wedding parties. So it got so bad people didn't even have big weddings anymore, and if you got married, you would only… You kept it a secret. You only told your closest relatives that you were going to get married, because if you…

00:42:12.570 - 00:42:50.970

William Jones: If it got out to the white community, William Jones: they would get a mob together, and go to the wedding, and kill people, and rape the bride, and, you know, usually the thing they'd love to do was after they had did what they did to the bride, forcing the William Jones: groom to watch, they would then cut their heads off and tie them feet-up William Jones: into the tree, and so that... Like you would a deer, when you were bleeding the deer after you had killed it. And that's what they would do to

00:42:51.140 - 00:43:15.700

William Jones: the couple. William Jones: So... William Jones: So anyway, we've been fighting for… In the 1980s, in the 1880s, they came out of the swamps and again said, okay. William Jones: We're native, we're still here, you tried to kill us for the past 10 years, but you didn't do it, and we want recognition.

00:43:15.710 - 00:44:03.530

William Jones: You know, we want to be our own community, we want to have our own schools, because at the time, you know, the federal government was going around stealing Indian children and forcing them to residential schools, and my people didn't want our kids to have to go to some school several hundred miles away William Jones: for years at a time. They would take kids 7 years old, and you wouldn't see your child again until it was 16. William Jones: So they wanted their own school, and they wanted the state of North Carolina to recognize it, so that the federal government wouldn't come steal our children. So we've been fighting for recognition since then. William Jones: So, the answer… Well, the incredibly long answer to that question is no, recognition didn't have anything to do with why we got started.

00:44:05.610 - 00:44:26.160

L.X.: Gotcha. Well, thank you for sharing some of your tribe's history. It's really, really traumatic L.X.: to say the least. William Jones: Well, I'm glad… I'm happy to share it. I'm just, it's sad that William Jones: I learned this stuff

00:44:26.480 - 00:45:01.460

William Jones: because our tribe would have, you know, we had culture classes, so we learned our history, we learned what they did to us. It's not, William Jones: you know. William Jones: But it's sad that I would also go to high school, you know, and I'd be in a history class, and they would say some crazy crap, and I would say, well, you know, that's really not true. And then everybody's like, oh, you're un-American, you hate America. I don't hate America, I love America. William Jones: America just doesn't love me. You know, that's...

00:45:02.110 - 00:45:14.600

William Jones: And that's sad, but I'm glad that there's people who ask questions. William Jones: Because that's how the truth comes out. William Jones: It's when you ask questions. Grace Talinabupato: Yeah.

00:45:14.600 - 00:45:37.400

L.X.: Certainly. Grace Talinabupato: That kind of takes me back to my other question that I had about attending a predominantly white institution. Grace Talinabupato: Going back to Sigma Alpha Mu, were there times where you faced discrimination in that fraternity? Grace Talinabupato: Specifically because it was an all-white fraternity.

00:45:38.550 - 00:46:00.440

William Jones: No. William Jones: No, they were very accepting of me. They knew I was Native, and William Jones: You know, they… Nobody ever, ever William Jones: said anything disrespectful or anything. I felt totally valued as a person and accepted for who I was.

00:46:03.500 - 00:46:16.440

Grace Talinabupato: I'm glad that you had a great experience. L.X.: Sorry. Grace Talinabupato: Oh, no, it's okay. L.X.: So, in general, on Towson's campus, did you face any discrimination?

00:46:17.640 - 00:46:48.800

William Jones: No. William Jones: But, I do remember we had a… One of our members, gosh, William Jones: I can't think of her name, I think it was Owen… William Jones: Owa… Gosh, I can't even say it now. But there was a woman that was a member of the Native American Society, and she did ceremonies with us. I did a sweat lodge ceremony with her, and she was a very unusual individual.

00:46:49.080 - 00:47:20.890

William Jones: And she dressed in, like, traditional Native American garb every day. And, like, buckskin. William Jones: You know, all… A big buckskin dress. William Jones: Like, even in the really hot weather. William Jones: And I would tell her, I'd say, [Owenowi], I think that was her name, [Owenowi]. I was like, [Owenowi],

00:47:21.060 - 00:48:06.190

William Jones: why are you wearing the buckskin? It's 100 degrees out here. You know, our people didn't wear buckskin in 100 degrees, but of course, a lot of the time, they would just be mostly naked in 100 degrees. So I understood why she couldn't be naked, but, you know, she could have down-dressed some, but she… William Jones: She just… I don't know why, but she just always… And she got a lot of looks, and a lot of people would say things like, you know, where's the powwow? You know, and stuff like that to her. But, William Jones: nobody ever… To me, in some ways, too, I also thought that she kind of, like, was poking the bear. You know, she wanted to get a reaction out of people. William Jones: But, no, most of the time, you know,

00:48:06.860 - 00:48:23.390

William Jones: I did not feel discriminated against whatsoever William Jones: when I was there for being native. Lots of people… William Jones: But then again, you know, my… Like I said, I present as white. I'm not, William Jones: you know, and maybe if I was,

00:48:23.660 - 00:48:49.630

William Jones: you know, really dark, and long, dark hair, and everything, that maybe I would have William Jones: seemed aggressive to some people, and then they would have maybe had a different attitude towards me, I don't know. But, no, I did not face any discrimination. William Jones: Thank you. Offscreen: You're welcome. William Jones: Oh… How much longer, guys? I'm sorry, it's just...

00:48:50.640 - 00:49:08.940

William Jones: And I know I'm probably causing a lot of the problems by talking too much, but… William Jones: How much longer before I can let everybody back in the car? Grace Talinabupato: That's okay, we have, just two more questions. Is there anyone you believe that we should reach out to for an oral history? William Jones: Yes, John Wesley Moore.

00:49:11.320 - 00:49:17.480

Grace Talinabupato: And is there anything else… William Jones: And I'll give you his contact... Grace Talinabupato: I'll give you his contact information later. Grace Talinabupato: Alright.

00:49:19.220 - 00:49:36.600

Grace Talinabupato: And is there anything else you'd like to share with us before we end? William Jones: Just that I'm glad you guys are doing this. Yeah, I think it's William Jones: really cool. Grace Talinabupato: Perfect.

00:49:37.190 - 00:49:51.350

Grace Talinabupato: Well, that is all, Mr. Jones. Thank you so much for your time. Grace Talinabupato: And thank you so much for your contribution to the Unearthing Towson's History Project. William Jones: Yay! Thank you! Christian Koot: Yeah, thank you very much.

00:49:51.770 - 00:49:58.040

William Jones: Alright, no problem. William Jones: And you think I talk too much, wait till you talk to John.