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Peter Ludwig: Alrighty, today is November 6th, 2025, and we are here with Paul Sean Gray Sr. This interview is for the Unearthing Towson History Project for Towson University and the TU Archives. First of all, thank you for meeting with us, Mr. Gray. Paul-Sean Gray: Cool. Peter Ludwig: I'd like to start with some introductions. Paul-Sean Gray: Okay.

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Peter Ludwig: Firstly, my name is Peter Ludwig. I am a senior history major at Towson University. Peter Ludwig: And I'll be the primary interviewer for today. Paul-Sean Gray: Okay. Peter Ludwig: We also have Katie, who is currently not here yet, but no worries. She's gonna be our, kind of like, communications person and note-taker. And then we had Najah as well. She, unfortunately, will not be here.

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Peter Ludwig: She is the stats and kind of secondary interviewer. I guess we'll just kind of get right to it. Do you have any questions for me before we start? Paul-Sean Gray: Nope, nope, I'm ready. Peter Ludwig: Cool, alright. Peter Ludwig: So first of all, what kind of position did you have with Towson University? I assume you were, firstly, a student?

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Paul-Sean Gray: So, yes, I started my undergraduate journey in 1983, August of 1983. Paul-Sean Gray: And currently, I sit on the Towson University Foundation Board, Paul-Sean Gray: since 2012, I believe. Peter Ludwig: Gotcha. Okay, just kind of laying out a foundation

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Paul-Sean Gray: for us. Peter Ludwig: So let's start off in your early career with Towson University. Paul-Sean Gray: Okay. Peter Ludwig: First of all, why did you choose Towson University? What kind of brought you to that? Was it your parents? Was it you?

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Paul-Sean Gray: Actually, neither. I had an uncle involved in higher ed. He just retired from higher ed as a... Paul-Sean Gray: Multiple levels, either vice president or president of Paul-Sean Gray: small to medium-sized universities. So he was still in the Baltimore region. Paul-Sean Gray: He was helping me through my selection process and made introductions to various universities in the Washington metropolitan area, that's where I originate from, Prince George's County.

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Paul-Sean Gray: And he introduced me to one of the assistant admissions directors at the time, Angel Jackson, Paul-Sean Gray: who became Director of Admissions at some point. Paul-Sean Gray: But the niche that… So, go back, in my heyday, parents didn't take time off Paul-Sean Gray: to visit colleges. You kind of did it on your own, or

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Paul-Sean Gray: you went into your counselor's office and pulled the catalogs of various schools. Paul-Sean Gray: Just looked at everything in a book, right? Catalog for each university to kind of get a feel for the university. So, my introduction to Towson was basically from my uncle's connections. The reason I chose Towson over multiple schools I was accepted to, including University of Maryland, Hampton. Paul-Sean Gray: Howard University, that was, like, the top 3 or 4 I can remember, and Morehouse, sorry, in Atlanta, was proximity and cost. So, Paul-Sean Gray: I am the oldest of four.

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Paul-Sean Gray: The latter two were born while I was in high school. Paul-Sean Gray: So, I needed to find a place that was... Paul-Sean Gray: A university or a college that was not too far away, so it wouldn't be a burden on my parents trying to get me to and fro, and also the cost wouldn't be too prohibitive to what we were going through at the time. Paul-Sean Gray: So I essentially… Towson kind of fit all the boxes.

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Paul-Sean Gray: And I received a couple scholarships, directly from the university, grant-in-aid, I can get to that later, and then some senatorial scholarships from the state as well. So my first year and a half to two years, I paid very, very Paul-Sean Gray: little, if any, tuition. Paul-Sean Gray: A total cost, being a resident student with room and board. Peter Ludwig: Wow. That's pretty impressive.

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Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah, yeah. So that's Paul-Sean Gray: how I found Towson, and now the funny part to that is, this was during the wave of Towson extending itself to suburban Washington students, college students, particularly from my area. Paul-Sean Gray: Because I could tell you when I named that I was going to this university, and when I came back with any paraphernalia on, Paul-Sean Gray: no one knew… First of all, they couldn't pronounce it, of course, the common problem.

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Paul-Sean Gray: You're very aware of that. And then, no one knew where it was. Paul-Sean Gray: No one knew where Towson was located, in my neck of the woods. Paul-Sean Gray: You know, so… Peter Ludwig: That's interesting. Can you tell me more about that kind of divide between, like, the metropolitan area and Towson, and kind of how that...

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Paul-Sean Gray: Also, Washington metropolitan area, Paul-Sean Gray: back in those days... I'll keep saying it that way. Paul-Sean Gray: That 45-mile distance was more like 2 days distance, as far as culture, as far as Paul-Sean Gray: daily life, I guess you could say. Baltimore was more of a blue-collar manufacturing city at that time. Washington, D.C. was a mix, but, you know, because it's the seat of the federal government, you had a heavy dose of white-collar.

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Paul-Sean Gray: So we had different teams that we rooted for. Paul-Sean Gray: Now, I have family in the Baltimore region, in the city, and I also followed the Baltimore Orioles, so I kind of knew the city of Towson, but I didn't… I'd never heard of the university. Paul-Sean Gray: I knew it was a suburban town... Peter Ludwig: Gotcha.

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Paul-Sean Gray: ...just from reference. So, if you go back in time, Paul-Sean Gray: There were four channels for Washington, D.C. Paul-Sean Gray: Four more channels for Baltimore. Paul-Sean Gray: Okay, Channel 20 and Channel 45 were not Fox at the time, they were independent, local independent stations. So, of course, we had the three major networks.

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Paul-Sean Gray: Well, where I live, you can watch the Baltimore area Paul-Sean Gray: stations. Paul-Sean Gray: And then we were also fans of the Baltimore Colts at the time. Paul-Sean Gray: So you… And the Baltimore Colts used to start their games, because of Baltimore blue laws,

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Paul-Sean Gray: their games on Sundays would often start at 2 p.m. Paul-Sean Gray: So I can start watching the… And excuse what I'm about to say, I can watch a Redskins game at 1, Paul-Sean Gray: And around halftime, I could flip over to the Colts. Paul-Sean Gray: And then, conversely, when the Redskins game ended, I can flip back over to the Colts games. We didn't have multiple TVs and screens back then. So

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Paul-Sean Gray: having family in the area, knowing… Being a fan of the Orioles and being pseudo a follower of the Colts, I pretty much had an idea what the Baltimore region was about, but for most people that I grew up around, Baltimore would have been… Could have been Philly or New York. Peter Ludwig: Wow, so yeah, it was a big difference. Paul-Sean Gray: There's a huge difference. And conversely, the other way around. Paul-Sean Gray: Most of my in-laws, my wife's from Baltimore City.

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Paul-Sean Gray: Leaving 5 square blocks of where they live, Paul-Sean Gray: it was like traveling 45 miles. Peter Ludwig: Wow. Paul-Sean Gray: Baltimore is more of a neighborhood-centric area, whereas the Washington area, because we had the subway,

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Paul-Sean Gray: And because, you know, you drive around much more than you needed to, or you had to drive around much more, because once you got into the suburban areas, Paul-Sean Gray: public transportation was there, but it didn't take you to the outer rings of the areas that you need to go, as we refer to it as outside the Beltway. At that time, not much public transportation went outside the Beltway, so you had to have a car Paul-Sean Gray: to get around, to be in... Peter Ludwig: Gotcha.

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Peter Ludwig: And while you were at Towson, did you have a car? Was that something that was available to you, or is it more public transportation? Paul-Sean Gray: I lived on campus, so all four years I lived on campus, because it would cost... Paul-Sean Gray: Easy for me, and I didn't bring a car up until halfway through my junior year. Paul-Sean Gray: And then mostly my senior year, I had it.

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Peter Ludwig: Gotcha. Paul-Sean Gray: But my first two years, no. And I saw the question about the garage. Paul-Sean Gray: So the garage was, like, Paul-Sean Gray: when I came up for summer orientation, which was Triad, there was still some

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Paul-Sean Gray: area in the flat part of the parking garage. Paul-Sean Gray: That was, like, the only parking available. There was no structure. Paul-Sean Gray: Burdick Field was then just dirt and grass. Paul-Sean Gray: So, going through the construction, you could see something was coming,

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Paul-Sean Gray: right? Paul-Sean Gray: But it wasn't completed until, I guess, sophomore year or later part of my freshman year. Paul-Sean Gray: And since I wasn't a commuter, I didn't have a use for it. Paul-Sean Gray: It was just, you know,

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Paul-Sean Gray: more construction going on. And that goes back to part of my attraction to the university when I went to orientation was most of the campus that I saw was relatively new at that time. Paul-Sean Gray: Psychology, Linth… not Linthicum, Psychology, Hawkins, Paul-Sean Gray: the Union, they were all built in the mid to late 70s. So the university, the campus at that point had a newness to it. Paul-Sean Gray: Kind of a fresh feel to it. It didn't feel like an old, stodgy, dated campus,

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Paul-Sean Gray: until, of course, you went to the classic side of campus, Paul-Sean Gray: where you go to Newell, Richmond, and those halls. Peter Ludwig: I was about to say, because when I look at the college, I definitely see that as well, even today, with the way the union is, and, you know, you go over across campus, like you were just saying, and… Older, older buildings. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah. And it was a good mix, too, because it felt like, okay, when we went to that side of campus, it was like, oh, you're at a university, you're at a classic,

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Paul-Sean Gray: picturesque, postcard side of campus. Paul-Sean Gray: And then when she came over to… Because I was, like, the first person to live in the Glen. Paul-Sean Gray: And that's when the towers were gray, and we didn't feel bad that towers were gray. They looked new to us, so Paul-Sean Gray: I like the refresh, but it's kind of funny how tastes change.

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Paul-Sean Gray: So the bridge and everything connected to that side of campus... You know, we felt… Paul-Sean Gray: This was incredible. New. Paul-Sean Gray: We used to make fun of the people on the other side of campus that had to go to Newell. Paul-Sean Gray: But, you know, from an aesthetic standpoint, it was a good mix between the classic look of what you picture as a college at that time, versus you seeing the new buildings coming up and the investment in capital infrastructure, so…

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Peter Ludwig: That's interesting. And I know we just talked recently about you living on campus. What was that like for you? Do you think you had a different experience compared to Peter Ludwig: the other students on campus who weren't? Peter Ludwig: And just tell me a little bit about that. Paul-Sean Gray: I advise every parent, every kid going to college,

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Paul-Sean Gray: that they should try their best Paul-Sean Gray: to go away, you know, by going away is Paul-Sean Gray: more than 10 minutes away, and live on campus. Paul-Sean Gray: Because you get the growth, the independence.

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Paul-Sean Gray: I'm an original latchkey kid, meaning I went home by myself from first grade. I have other stories about that that don't want to bore you with, but… Paul-Sean Gray: So I already had some level of independence, but to go away to college, and now you have to now Paul-Sean Gray: moderate your schedule, manage your schedule. You have to get up, right? You have to make sure you're getting homework done. You have to, you know, put your study time in. Paul-Sean Gray: That's good for the growth for an individual. I think it kind of gives you a better trajectory to being an adult, a fully functioning adult.

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Paul-Sean Gray: But for me, it was... Paul-Sean Gray: Here we go. Paul-Sean Gray: Getting the battery warning. Hold on. Peter Ludwig: All good.

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Paul-Sean Gray: So, for me, living on campus was pretty good. Paul-Sean Gray: Like I said, I was one of the first folks to live in the Glen complex, Tower D. Paul-Sean Gray: And the newness of going to a… Staying in a new building was awesome. Paul-Sean Gray: Because I can go back, remember my mom and I looking at the catalog, and me saying, no, I want to stay where there's suites. I don't want to stay in the classic, you know,

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Paul-Sean Gray: where you had to… Because Newell, you know, you had to Paul-Sean Gray: share bathrooms on the whole floor. That wasn't gonna work for me. Paul-Sean Gray: Wasn't attractive. Paul-Sean Gray: So… But you made a lot of friends

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Paul-Sean Gray: really quick, with the students, and I made a lot of friends with the cafeteria staff as well. Paul-Sean Gray: But it was a way of unifying, like, a lot of the friends I have today Paul-Sean Gray: are from those early years Paul-Sean Gray: being... Staying on campus, and it also gave you a different feel. So what I tell folks

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Paul-Sean Gray: and higher up at the university. Paul-Sean Gray: is Paul-Sean Gray: you can draw the line of demarcation, late 90s, early 2000s, but those of us who stayed on campus have a different feel for the university as the standard commuting student. Peter Ludwig: Gotcha.

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Paul-Sean Gray: Right? Paul-Sean Gray: I mean, I've known students, or alums, I should say, Paul-Sean Gray: who spent maybe two days or three days a week on campus. Paul-Sean Gray: And when they graduated, they basically…

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Paul-Sean Gray: That part of their life just disappeared. Paul-Sean Gray: So the memories that I have are different, because you're on campus 24-7, you're formulating friendships, you're formulating Paul-Sean Gray: networks, dependencies with people. Like, I got to meet, you know, upperclassmen, because we stayed on campus. Paul-Sean Gray: And

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Paul-Sean Gray: once you start talking to them, they looked out for you, right? That's gonna get to another part of your questions. Paul-Sean Gray: And you were able to, you know, use them as support systems during that transition period in your life. So that wouldn't happen if I'm a commuter. Paul-Sean Gray: Which is one of the reasons I didn't go to University of Maryland, because it was only five miles… Three miles from my high school, and Paul-Sean Gray: I was unsure if I was going to be forced to commute or stay on campus, and for most of the folks I knew that went there from my area, they were mostly commuters, so I wanted to have that true college experience.

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Peter Ludwig: Okay, so for you, it was more about being on campus, kind of getting into it. Being a part of the community. Peter Ludwig: Speaking of that, Peter Ludwig: what were some, I guess, topics that circulated around in the mid to late 80s between students? Peter Ludwig: Is there anything that comes to mind immediately? Or is it more just, kind of, you were going with the flow?

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Paul-Sean Gray: So, early, mid, late 80s, Because I come in '83, I leave '87. Paul-Sean Gray: Historically, or I'll say on campus, Paul-Sean Gray: just going back to that statement I just made, so, Paul-Sean Gray: there were generic things going on on campus that...

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Paul-Sean Gray: Standard stuff, right? You know, is the food hot, you know? Paul-Sean Gray: But by and large, your biggest issue was, for me and my cohorts, Paul-Sean Gray: was, you know, navigating the whole process of college life. Paul-Sean Gray: Trying to determine, you know, friendships, but more importantly, you know, your majors,

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Paul-Sean Gray: professors, trying to find, you know, things like academic support, career support. Paul-Sean Gray: Those were the things that were kind of lacking to me at the time. Paul-Sean Gray: And, you know, we've discussed it, Paul-Sean Gray: my friends and I at the time. And that's why we kind of leaned heavily on,

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Paul-Sean Gray: like I said, those friends who are upperclassmen, they can give you some advice on, you know, courses to take, professors to take, at the time. Paul-Sean Gray: The biggest thing for us as freshmen Paul-Sean Gray: was being admonished on how to conduct ourselves Paul-Sean Gray: during this transition period.

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Paul-Sean Gray: One of the dorm directors would have these meetings, and Paul-Sean Gray: two things came out, you know, we know you're Paul-Sean Gray: new adults, and at the time, I was only a year away Paul-Sean Gray: from being able to purchase alcohol legally in the state of Maryland.

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Paul-Sean Gray: Key definition there. So, you still had a lot of drinking on campus. Paul-Sean Gray: The Union, you can go into the Union, there was a place called the Rathskeller in the bowling alley. Paul-Sean Gray: So you can go in there and get a, you know, Paul-Sean Gray: a draft beer.

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Peter Ludwig: Wow. Paul-Sean Gray: My roommate, my first roommate, he was... Paul-Sean Gray: I'll use the term that we use today. I think he reclassed at some point, or he started school late, so he was already… He had met the date for the state of Maryland, so he can always go get beer for him, myself, his friends. Paul-Sean Gray: So, beer was far more prevalent on campus.

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Paul-Sean Gray: Alcohol was far more prevalent on campus. Paul-Sean Gray: So, one of the things they're trying to, you know, now you have all these new freshmen, they have access to alcohol. Paul-Sean Gray: Don't over-consume. But it was not anything not to see cases of beer going in and out of the dorms Monday night, Tuesday night. Paul-Sean Gray: Wednesdays was Maxwell's quarter draft night. Thursdays, you know, one of the white fraternities or sororities having a party in the union, and they'll have draft beer available for

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Paul-Sean Gray: cheap, I should say. So that was one thing. The other aspect was strongly Paul-Sean Gray: pushed upon us, particularly Black students, was Paul-Sean Gray: trying to assimilate into a larger community. Paul-Sean Gray: It kind of was offensive to me,

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Paul-Sean Gray: having that type of conversation. I understood, you know, you're not home. Paul-Sean Gray: You need to Paul-Sean Gray: become a fully-fledged college student, but it was kind of hammered not to hold on... To me, I took it as, don't hold on to your, you know, your culture too much. Try to change and become part of the greater culture that existed on campus. Paul-Sean Gray: So, that was something that a lot of us didn't appreciate.

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Paul-Sean Gray: And, you know, there were topics, Paul-Sean Gray: the normal, you know, standard stuff, like I said. Paul-Sean Gray: Are there enough… Is there enough parking? Again, not my issue. But I had friends, and you wanted to use them for rides, so Paul-Sean Gray: you sort of had an indirect concern about parking.

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Paul-Sean Gray: And one of the things we did not like Paul-Sean Gray: from a student aspect was, during student breaks, Paul-Sean Gray: particularly Paul-Sean Gray: Christmas break, or first semester break

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Paul-Sean Gray: resident students had to completely move off campus, Paul-Sean Gray: meaning you had to completely empty your room. Paul-Sean Gray: Your dorm room. Take everything back home, only to bring it all back Paul-Sean Gray: at the end of January, right?

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Paul-Sean Gray: Now that's changed, rightfully so, but that was one of the irritants that we all tried to communicate up the chain, Paul-Sean Gray: that it was kind of stupid to do it in that manner. I think the school was trying to Paul-Sean Gray: minimize risk, because they were supposedly cleaning the rooms, and they didn't want to have to worry about, Paul-Sean Gray: you know, anything happening to your processions during that time, because you didn't have key cards or anything like that to kind of monitor who went in and out of rooms. You just had a basic skeleton key. So,

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Paul-Sean Gray: gladly, that's not an issue, but that was a major irritant for us back in that time. Peter Ludwig: So it sounds like a lot of different things were going on. It's pretty active. Peter Ludwig: You did mention something which I kind of want to circle back on Peter Ludwig: about the, kind of, racial tension and the feeling of assimilation, I believe you used?

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Paul-Sean Gray: Yep. Peter Ludwig: Did you feel welcome Peter Ludwig: on campus at the time? Did it feel like you were kind of alienated on campus? Paul-Sean Gray: So, I would say we were… It wasn't a warm welcome.

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Paul-Sean Gray: It was, like, a very luke-neutral welcome, Paul-Sean Gray: right? So yeah, two prevailing thoughts. I'll say at the larger level, it felt like, Paul-Sean Gray: you paid your tuition. Paul-Sean Gray: No one cares if you pass or fail, we have your tuition money.

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Paul-Sean Gray: Right? Paul-Sean Gray: So that was at the higher level. And when you get it down to, Paul-Sean Gray: you know, I would say the school was self-segregated, as far as the student population. Paul-Sean Gray: If you went into the cafeteria, most of the Black students sat as groups.

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Paul-Sean Gray: You may have had one or two folks from other communities joining in, and vice versa. Paul-Sean Gray: Right? But it also, you know, I came from a majority high school, Paul-Sean Gray: majority white high school, even though I live in a majority Black area. So Paul-Sean Gray: the interaction with other students from other communities,

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Paul-Sean Gray: other races, wasn't really a leap for me, but I met many students, many white students, who actually articulated to me that Paul-Sean Gray: I was probably the first Black person that they ever had a conversation with at their age. Peter Ludwig: Wow, so it was very segregated for some people. Paul-Sean Gray: It was something. It was

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Paul-Sean Gray: a moment for some people, right? Because if you came from an area that was, you know, I don't want to say what area is in the state, but if you came from an area that was Paul-Sean Gray: less than 1% Black, as one person said, the only Black person I ever knew was the janitor at the high school. Paul-Sean Gray: Right? So now you come into this area. Well, you could stay on your side of the fence, so to speak, and not really interact with Black students, and the same way was true for Black students at the time. Paul-Sean Gray: Music was pretty much, you know, separate, by likes and genres.

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Paul-Sean Gray: They had, you know, movie nights at school, but they pretty much leaned heavy towards what was popular with most white students at the time. Paul-Sean Gray: And so you had to rely on the organizations, Paul-Sean Gray: you know, the D9 [Divine Nine] organizations were really the Divine Eight at the time, and the Black Student Union to kind of give you that Paul-Sean Gray: virtual hug, so to speak, to make you feel a little bit more welcome. So, I don't say we weren't welcome, I would say we were tolerated.

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Paul-Sean Gray: And Paul-Sean Gray: unfortunately for me, my time on campus did not line up with Dean Chapman's time. He left before I came on campus. Paul-Sean Gray: And so, his impact, while still felt, I didn't have that personal relationship to be able to rely on him at that time, as other Paul-Sean Gray: folks were able to do it.

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Peter Ludwig: Gotcha. Peter Ludwig: And I know you said it was kind of like a virtual hug Peter Ludwig: to have certain people around you. Was there ever a time or an instance where you felt like you weren't safe, or you felt unsafe, Peter Ludwig: or anybody that you knew that might have felt that way?

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Paul-Sean Gray: So, I got a funny story about that, but, no. I never felt unsafe on campus, Paul-Sean Gray: I never… Paul-Sean Gray: I mean, you would tell young ladies, hey, if you want to walk across campus, I'll walk you across campus. There was no... The first couple years, there was no official escort service. Paul-Sean Gray: I think around my sophomore or junior year, that kind of

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Paul-Sean Gray: became somewhat of a thing, but they were the call boxes, not as prevalent as they have them now. You had Centrix phones back then, right? So, there were hall phones and phones that... They didn't dial off campus. You can only dial Paul-Sean Gray: on campus. So if you needed somebody to meet you, Paul-Sean Gray: you know, you could do that, have somebody meet you. As far as the dorms, Paul-Sean Gray: there was free access to the dorms, if you knew how to get in. The only dorm you didn't have free access to was on Scarborough,

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Paul-Sean Gray: because that was the all girls dorm at the time. Paul-Sean Gray: It was the only single-sex dorm on campus. So, you had to know someone, have someone open the door for you, or know how to pop the code. I'm not gonna give away the cheat code. Paul-Sean Gray: But the other dorms, particularly coming in and out of the Glen, Paul-Sean Gray: the doors were open, you didn't have to show a key card, you didn't have to show an ID card,

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Paul-Sean Gray: and the RAs, they were at the station, Paul-Sean Gray: they probably… Unless you just looked totally strange, no one said anything to you, right? Paul-Sean Gray: So, it was kind of free-flowing from a sense of security. There were Paul-Sean Gray: issues like, you know, you had crime in neighboring areas near the campus. You had students that, you know,

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Paul-Sean Gray: did too much drinking, either on campus or slightly off campus. Paul-Sean Gray: I don't know if I ever told Ashley this, but I was… I was almost arrested one time. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah. So, February, March of '85, Paul-Sean Gray: there was an escapee from the Towson jail, right across the street from Residence Tower.

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Paul-Sean Gray: The drawing matched... Paul-Sean Gray: Well, I should say, campus police thought I matched the drawing. Paul-Sean Gray: The sketch. Paul-Sean Gray: The only thing that saved me from a ride in the squad car and a trip over to the jail was because, at the time, I was pledging my fraternity, so my big brothers were able to vouch for my whereabouts and my name, and because they had relationships with some of the campus police officers, they took their word.

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Paul-Sean Gray: So, but originally, they tried to take me and question me. The police did. Yeah, so Paul-Sean Gray: that was a scary time for the campus folks, because everybody was worried about, where's this rapist, right? And Paul-Sean Gray: I don't think he ever did anything on campus. I think once he got out of the jail, he just left the area, the immediate area. Paul-Sean Gray: But there was not… I don't recall him causing any harm on campus, but it was scary.

00:28:52.340 - 00:29:12.770

Peter Ludwig: So yeah, you almost were jailed for that, and because of a very vague kind of description. Paul-Sean Gray: Well, the only reason I fit the description, because we're about the same height, weight, and I had a skull cap on, and in the description, he had a skull cap on. Peter Ludwig: Hmm. Paul-Sean Gray: And that was basically the gist, because the guy actually held it up,

00:29:13.450 - 00:29:26.350

Paul-Sean Gray: the sketch, next to my face. Paul-Sean Gray: Right in front of the Glen. Paul-Sean Gray: And the sun was down at the time, so not much light. Peter Ludwig: Hmm. Yeah.

00:29:27.280 - 00:29:38.610

Peter Ludwig: So, I know you briefly mentioned your fraternity. Peter Ludwig: The last section here. Paul-Sean Gray: Well, I'm just gonna go back real quick. Yeah. Peter Ludwig: Yeah, go ahead.

00:29:38.610 - 00:29:57.870

Paul-Sean Gray: For the filling… Peter Ludwig: Because I'm looking at the questions, and the Paul-Sean Gray: welcome kind of goes into that. So, one of the other things that we had to figure out, Black students, was Paul-Sean Gray: you had to prove in a lot of classes that you belong.

00:29:59.050 - 00:30:22.640

Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah, so, kind of felt like, you know, the first week of class, Paul-Sean Gray: you know, the teacher puts out an assignment, you know, you come back, the professor asks some questions, you know, everybody raises their hand, Paul-Sean Gray: and you started feeling like you weren't being called upon. Paul-Sean Gray: So you almost had to show, like, either through your first quiz or through your first test,

00:30:23.030 - 00:30:41.360

Paul-Sean Gray: that you were smart enough or intelligent enough to be called upon in the class. Paul-Sean Gray: I wouldn't say it was 100% of those classes, but I would say it was a majority of the classes. Paul-Sean Gray: Particularly those first two years. Paul-Sean Gray: You had a strong indication.

00:30:41.580 - 00:30:58.820

Paul-Sean Gray: That was a common thing that we all felt. So you went into a class, Paul-Sean Gray: You always had to prove yourself. Yeah. Paul-Sean Gray: That was… Sorry. Peter Ludwig: Sorry. No, go ahead, go ahead.

00:30:58.820 - 00:31:17.380

Paul-Sean Gray: No, no, I was just saying that… I had to get… I forgot to put that in there, as far as being tolerated. That's one of the things we… Paul-Sean Gray: We felt like, you know, we didn't have a strong support system, I would say, from Paul-Sean Gray: instructors and professors. It took a while. Peter Ludwig: Gotcha.

00:31:18.300 - 00:31:41.090

Paul-Sean Gray: Usually towards your upper-level courses, for the most part. Paul-Sean Gray: But those first couple years, particularly freshman year for myself and most of my friends, we all had that common experience. Peter Ludwig: So it was a universal issue, it wasn't… It was more systematic than that. Paul-Sean Gray: Exactly. Systematic, yep. Systemic and systematic.

00:31:41.910 - 00:31:51.980

Peter Ludwig: That's interesting. Paul-Sean Gray: Yep. Peter Ludwig: Very interesting. Peter Ludwig: Was there anything else you wanted to talk about as far as life on campus or the classroom setting?

00:31:52.330 - 00:32:11.950

Paul-Sean Gray: You had other questions, so you will have... Paul-Sean Gray: In some courses, depending on what the topic was, what the subject was, Paul-Sean Gray: more of your math and science courses, you may be one or two Paul-Sean Gray: Black students in those classes, and some of the

00:32:12.710 - 00:32:39.090

Paul-Sean Gray: GRE courses, or history, or things like that, Paul-Sean Gray: you may have a decent number of... Psychology, you have a decent number of Black students. Paul-Sean Gray: But as you get into more defined technical or scientific, or STEM-related courses, Paul-Sean Gray: you may find that you're one of maybe two or three, and I graduated as a finance major, so

00:32:39.290 - 00:32:51.390

Paul-Sean Gray: there may have been maybe 3 or 4 in most of my classes, Paul-Sean Gray: max, yep. Peter Ludwig: So it was a primarily white major, and kind of… Paul-Sean Gray: For most of those types of majors, yeah.

00:32:51.580 - 00:33:04.170

Peter Ludwig: Okay. Peter Ludwig: Wow. Peter Ludwig: Another thing I wanted to circle back on as far as life on campus before we Peter Ludwig: go into your fraternity involvement.

00:33:04.170 - 00:33:18.790

Paul-Sean Gray: Okay. Peter Ludwig: So, the Towerlight, which is the Peter Ludwig: campus newspaper, as I assume you know. Peter Ludwig: How influential was the Towerlight while you were on campus, and did you read it?

00:33:19.550 - 00:33:43.460

Paul-Sean Gray: Definitely read it, because we had those dispensers in every dorm. Paul-Sean Gray: Or in the Union. It kind of helped you kind of figure out what… Where am I? Paul-Sean Gray: You know, you'll read the topics. Paul-Sean Gray: So, you know, if you go through the historical record, you see some of the things that were bringing,

00:33:44.070 - 00:34:00.970

Paul-Sean Gray: that had the attention of the students. Paul-Sean Gray: The thing for me was referencing the sports teams. Paul-Sean Gray: Um, Paul-Sean Gray: seeing the schedule of the sports teams, or the write-ups of the sports teams, particularly football and basketball.

00:34:01.450 - 00:34:36.150

Paul-Sean Gray: Some amount of baseball. It also gave you indication of what was coming up, like intramural season. It also told you what cultural events were coming up. So I think, because at the time we didn't have the internet, Paul-Sean Gray: right, so it was… Paul-Sean Gray: And I was an avid newspaper reading person growing up, reading the Washington Post, so it was kind of a natural migration, to understand what was going on on campus. And it wasn't unusual to walk into anybody's dorm room and not see it. So everyone, by and large, Paul-Sean Gray: had it

00:34:36.660 - 00:34:56.320

Paul-Sean Gray: for their own individual purposes, yes, but everyone had Paul-Sean Gray: a Towerlight back then. So it's basically Paul-Sean Gray: the only way to hear about things on campus. I mean, they gave out little bulletins as well, and Paul-Sean Gray: they had calendars, activity calendars that they would hand out as well

00:34:56.550 - 00:35:13.200

Paul-Sean Gray: for each month. Paul-Sean Gray: But, by and large, for, you know, week to week, Towerlight was heavily read, Paul-Sean Gray: because, again, you don't have Paul-Sean Gray: anything else to use for campus information.

00:35:13.670 - 00:35:44.760

Peter Ludwig: So, yeah, it was kind of the word around campus, everything was there. Paul-Sean Gray: And, you know, yeah, the SGA put information in there as well, Paul-Sean Gray: But, you know, whatever was going on on campus was pretty much captured in the Towerlight, which you didn't get in, you know, from, you know, hallway gossip or cafeteria gossip. It was gonna be in the Towerlight. Peter Ludwig: Okay. Did you feel like the Black Student Union and the different Black fraternities were well represented there?

00:35:45.530 - 00:36:00.410

Paul-Sean Gray: In the Towerlight? Peter Ludwig: Yes. Paul-Sean Gray: Only with… Only the things they put in. Paul-Sean Gray: I don't… There was not a lot of coverage. Maybe… So the Black Student Union had, like, 2 or 3 major events throughout the year,

00:36:01.330 - 00:36:19.580

Paul-Sean Gray: and along with the gospel choir, Paul-Sean Gray: but that's something they had to push Paul-Sean Gray: to get coverage, Paul-Sean Gray: right? It wasn't… And I could be wrong, but it didn't feel natural that that was being covered.

00:36:20.820 - 00:36:45.010

Peter Ludwig: So it felt forced. Paul-Sean Gray: Well, they had to notify somebody at the Towerlight, hey, we're having this big event. It wasn't… Because I eventually became president of the BSU, so I kind of know how that Paul-Sean Gray: communication line went. But in my earlier years on the campus, Paul-Sean Gray: it felt like not a lot of coverage was there

00:36:45.530 - 00:37:04.530

Paul-Sean Gray: from a weekly basis. Paul-Sean Gray: If there was a major activity coming up, then it was promoted and covered after the fact. But it wasn't… Paul-Sean Gray: There wasn't a lot of coverage for minority students going on. Peter Ludwig: Okay, so it was definitely more of a silenced thing...

00:37:04.820 - 00:37:09.620

Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah. Peter Ludwig: in the magazine, unless it was brought up ahead of time, and it was… Paul-Sean Gray: Planned. Peter Ludwig: Highly planned.

00:37:09.980 - 00:37:22.290

Paul-Sean Gray: Planned and provided to them. Peter Ludwig: Gotcha. I know we also had… Peter Ludwig: Throughout our research, we looked into different sources. Peter Ludwig: We found a couple of student-run

00:37:22.770 - 00:37:42.710

Peter Ludwig: magazines and newspapers as well. Did you know about any of those? I believe one of them was Peter Ludwig: the Towson Alternative Press. Paul-Sean Gray: I think I remember reading it. Paul-Sean Gray: It gave you different viewpoints, different complaints,

00:37:43.460 - 00:37:59.180

Paul-Sean Gray: what was going on on campus. Wasn't something that I Paul-Sean Gray: looked for, but if it was available, I'd, you know, read through it, see what's going on. Paul-Sean Gray: And I can't remember, I think it was another one, I want to say Voices, or something Paul-Sean Gray: to that effect.

00:37:59.570 - 00:38:15.050

Peter Ludwig: Yes. Yeah, I don't have it here next to me. Paul-Sean Gray: Okay. Peter Ludwig: But I do remember seeing a couple of other ones, and I think one of them had the word voices in it. Paul-Sean Gray: I think that one was more geared to the minority population. Peter Ludwig: Okay.

00:38:15.790 - 00:38:35.720

Paul-Sean Gray: If I'm not off track there. That one provided Paul-Sean Gray: a little bit more insight, what was going on Paul-Sean Gray: for minorities, Paul-Sean Gray: and again, I think the biggest problem we had, well, my experience in listening to the older

00:38:37.130 - 00:38:59.310

Paul-Sean Gray: friends that I have, and having met Dr. Chapman, and been around some of the students that were around during his heyday, Paul-Sean Gray: I think Paul-Sean Gray: the Office of Minority Affairs was changed after he left, and it was kind of… The influence of that office was diminished Paul-Sean Gray: a notch or two, or three.

00:38:59.510 - 00:39:15.300

Paul-Sean Gray: So, I think that kind of reflects some of my responses. Peter Ludwig: So Chapman's time definitely influenced... Paul-Sean Gray: Oh, he had a lot of weight on campus. Yeah. Paul-Sean Gray: If you talk to a student at...

00:39:16.370 - 00:39:32.560

Paul-Sean Gray: If you talk to a former student that was on campus during his time, Paul-Sean Gray: he was almost Michael Jackson as far as a rock star. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah. He could not walk from one side of campus to the other side of campus without being stopped 100 times. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah.

00:39:32.890 - 00:39:46.310

Paul-Sean Gray: Moreso... Hoke Smith, who was our president, will probably get stopped once or twice. Paul-Sean Gray: Dean Chapman would not… Paul-Sean Gray: He could not make it from one side of campus to the other side of campus in 10 minutes. Peter Ludwig: That's crazy.

00:39:46.310 - 00:39:59.700

Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah. There was no way it was happening. Peter Ludwig: Wow. Paul-Sean Gray: So, because he had a lot of Paul-Sean Gray: interaction with the Black students. He was, like, their number one resource,

00:39:59.830 - 00:40:24.610

Paul-Sean Gray: support system. In many cases, he met with the parents and promised them Paul-Sean Gray: that he would watch over their children while they were at the university, so Paul-Sean Gray: a lot of people owed a great deal of... A big debt to him. Peter Ludwig: So yeah, that sounds like there was a lot of layers there, too, and

00:40:25.720 - 00:40:35.660

Peter Ludwig: different people and different, kind of, weight to pull. Paul-Sean Gray: Yep. Peter Ludwig: We do… I think we have about 10-ish minutes left. Paul-Sean Gray: Okay.

00:40:35.880 - 00:40:50.480

Peter Ludwig: I do want to circle back to the fraternity. Paul-Sean Gray: Okay. Peter Ludwig: I know that was a big thing for you. Peter Ludwig: First of all, why did you join Omega Psi Phi?

00:40:51.070 - 00:41:20.680

Paul-Sean Gray: So I have... I'm a second… Well, Paul-Sean Gray: one generation removed, second generation member from my family. I had a great uncle that pledged back in the late 40s. Paul-Sean Gray: My mom is a member of Delta Sigma Theta, so I was aware of Greek life Paul-Sean Gray: before coming to college, but they didn't push it upon me, didn't make it a major part of my upbringing, so to speak.

00:41:23.180 - 00:41:55.020

Paul-Sean Gray: But one of the things I noticed when I was on campus, I was pretty open to most of the fraternities. There was only really four to choose from at that time. I had an older friend in my neighborhood who pledged, he went to Hampton and joined, became a member of Phi Beta Sigma. Paul-Sean Gray: So he kind of gave us a real, like, firsthand Paul-Sean Gray: telling of what Greek life was like. Paul-Sean Gray: However, Ashley's gonna laugh again, probably.

00:41:55.560 - 00:42:16.290

Paul-Sean Gray: Most of my friends' impressions before leaving for college, what Greek life would be like, or was, Paul-Sean Gray: was formulated from Animal House. Paul-Sean Gray: Now, if you've ever seen the movie, starring John Belushi, you will understand the reference. Paul-Sean Gray: If you haven't seen the movie, you have to go watch the movie.

00:42:17.060 - 00:42:34.350

Paul-Sean Gray: Even if you watch, like, 5 minutes of it. Paul-Sean Gray: So… Peter Ludwig: Definitely a wild time. Paul-Sean Gray: It was a different thought, so back to your question. So when I came, you know, the brothers of Omega Psi Phi, that was a fraternity that appealed to me from a...

00:42:36.560 - 00:42:55.320

Paul-Sean Gray: We are the only fraternity. Most fraternities or sororities have the word service Paul-Sean Gray: in their mantra, we're the only organization that has friendship. Paul-Sean Gray: I mean, it's about building the bond. Paul-Sean Gray: Lifelong bonds with the members throughout the… With the members.

00:42:56.100 - 00:43:19.980

Paul-Sean Gray: And the brothers of the fraternity, I kind of… Paul-Sean Gray: I interacted with members of all the fraternities, but I had a better interaction with those members, and I kind of felt that they didn't have any type of Paul-Sean Gray: real or indirect bias based on class or station Paul-Sean Gray: or how you carried yourself as far as,

00:43:20.430 - 00:43:37.560

Paul-Sean Gray: you know, material things. They were more down-to-earth, Paul-Sean Gray: for me. Peter Ludwig: So it felt like everybody was more, like, kind of on the level, and... Paul-Sean Gray: You know, they had different… They had a variety of brothers, you know, they were also leaders on campus and

00:43:38.590 - 00:44:06.830

Paul-Sean Gray: in the greater Black community, you know, Jesse Jackson was a member, Vernon Jordan was a member, Paul-Sean Gray: you know, Earl Graves, who started magazines. So those are all prominent members that were making things happen in the Black community, so I just… Paul-Sean Gray: I had more interest in learning about that, and then seeing the diversity among personalities, but still having that kind of a humble, Paul-Sean Gray: grounded kind of persona.

00:44:07.830 - 00:44:22.280

Paul-Sean Gray: So I ended up, you know, befriending a few of the guys, and naturally became more interested. Paul-Sean Gray: Luckily, they took me in. Peter Ludwig: Gotcha. Peter Ludwig: So, it seems like it definitely became a big part of your life.

00:44:22.280 - 00:44:30.330

Paul-Sean Gray: Okay. Peter Ludwig: I remember looking into it, I believe you were president at one point? Paul-Sean Gray: So, President... Peter Ludwig: Chapter?

00:44:30.330 - 00:44:59.390

Paul-Sean Gray: ...Treasurer, Dean of New Initiates. Paul-Sean Gray: I was the Regional Undergraduate of the Year, 1987. Paul-Sean Gray: So, I received some decent accolades and recognition. Paul-Sean Gray: And I'll jump to one of the questions,

00:44:59.520 - 00:45:08.180

Paul-Sean Gray: because it's one of those basic questions. Peter Ludwig: Yeah. Paul-Sean Gray: Hazing. Paul-Sean Gray: So, never…

00:45:08.380 - 00:45:19.630

Paul-Sean Gray: We were never… We never got in trouble for anything as far as hazing, except for one time from a false accusation. Peter Ludwig: Okay, do you want to talk about that? Paul-Sean Gray: Sure. Peter Ludwig: It's up to you, no pressure.

00:45:19.630 - 00:45:45.930

Paul-Sean Gray: No, no, no, no, no. So, I still have today a letter from the state's attorney. Paul-Sean Gray: Describing what hazing is. So, technically, was I involved in hazing? Yes. Paul-Sean Gray: Because technically speaking, hazing is having anyone do anything that they would not do on their own. Paul-Sean Gray: For instance, if I have you stand in the middle of the cafeteria and just yell something stupid.

00:45:46.670 - 00:46:06.250

Paul-Sean Gray: You're being hazed. Paul-Sean Gray: So that's the legal definition. Paul-Sean Gray: Now, what happened was, just before becoming a member, full member, being initiated, we had what we call a probate show, or reveal. Paul-Sean Gray: Be kind of dressed up and perform steps for the audience

00:46:06.480 - 00:46:30.430

Paul-Sean Gray: that show that you're about to become a member. Well, we were being accused of being branded as pledgees. Paul-Sean Gray: No pledgee ever gets a brand. Paul-Sean Gray: The accusations stated that we were held in a bathroom, and Paul-Sean Gray: an iron was placed on us, on our shoulders, putting a brand on us.

00:46:30.900 - 00:46:50.450

Paul-Sean Gray: So we had to go in front of Senate Judiciary Panel. Paul-Sean Gray: We had to roll up our sleeves, both sleeves. Paul-Sean Gray: To show that we didn't have brands. Paul-Sean Gray: That didn't satisfy the panel, so they had to take off our

00:46:50.590 - 00:47:12.170

Paul-Sean Gray: shirts. We came in with ties and button-up shirts. Paul-Sean Gray: So we had to come out of that, take our undershirts off, t-shirts off, and show that we had no brands on our upper body whatsoever. Paul-Sean Gray: So when you kind of get back to the question about racism and things like that, there was always subtle examples. Paul-Sean Gray: And I kind of use this as another one of those, right?

00:47:12.930 - 00:47:28.340

Paul-Sean Gray: So what someone thought they saw was… Paul-Sean Gray: We… Part of our costume, when we're getting dressed. Paul-Sean Gray: members, the big brothers would draw, with mascara pens, Paul-Sean Gray: the omega sign on our arms.

00:47:30.670 - 00:47:52.930

Paul-Sean Gray: So… Paul-Sean Gray: We never thought it was a legitimate claim. We thought it was trumped up. I hate to use the pun that way, but someone was making a false accusation and trying to get us in trouble, for whatever reason. Paul-Sean Gray: Having something against us. So… Paul-Sean Gray: And I had very good relationships with Dean Hoffman, who was the head of Greek Life,

00:47:53.920 - 00:48:30.420

Paul-Sean Gray: kind of a neutral on-and-off relationship with Dean Siegel, who was in charge of student affairs at the time. But Dean Hoffman, you know, would always bring me in, talk about things that she thought was, you know, a little dicey with our organization or other organizations. Paul-Sean Gray: So I was able to, you know, kind of be, like, an ambassador, so to speak. Paul-Sean Gray: So, if you go back to the pictures of back when I became a member. Paul-Sean Gray: There was a lot more what we call above-ground pledging, meaning we had social probation, we dressed alike, we would stand in line together,

00:48:30.550 - 00:49:00.070

Paul-Sean Gray: walk around campus in formation. Very Paul-Sean Gray: much like the military, going through boot camp, basically. It was the same… That was the model, basically. So, to some folks, that was considered hazing, right then and there. We had a lot of physical activity. Paul-Sean Gray: Running around tracks, running across campus, you know. Silly stuff, but not something that… Paul-Sean Gray: Today, that stuff would be not tolerated.

00:49:00.070 - 00:49:22.580

Peter Ludwig: So the hazing incident was… And you're, like, not really hazing. It was more of an accusation Peter Ludwig: brought against you. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah, I think… I think someone had… Paul-Sean Gray: Someone wanted to bring that accusation and get us in trouble, either personal vendetta or whatever. We never saw the name on the affidavit, we were never

00:49:23.150 - 00:49:42.990

Paul-Sean Gray: able to face our accusers, so to speak. Paul-Sean Gray: It was all anonymous. Paul-Sean Gray: We didn't have what I would call… We didn't have legal representation. Paul-Sean Gray: But we were… There was a chance that we would be expelled from school.

00:49:44.310 - 00:50:02.720

Paul-Sean Gray: Right. Paul-Sean Gray: So, it was a... Paul-Sean Gray: We were pretty worried. Very… A lot of concern. I mean, we knew we were Paul-Sean Gray: in the right. We knew we didn't have this problem. We knew that we can beat the accusation itself, but we didn't know what would happen next,

00:50:02.820 - 00:50:17.950

Paul-Sean Gray: once we attended the meeting, would they start to spring something else on us, so… Peter Ludwig: That sounds pretty serious. Paul-Sean Gray: It was very serious, it was very serious. Peter Ludwig: Let's see here…

00:50:17.950 - 00:50:47.000

Paul-Sean Gray: Now, to answer your question, we did get our brands later. Peter Ludwig: Oh, so it actually was a… Paul-Sean Gray: But after… Well after that conversation. We didn't have a… Yeah. So, the accusation that we were pledged… We were pledgees, and were branded, and forced to get brands. Paul-Sean Gray: Every member has a decision to make, whether they want to get a brand, how many brands, and that didn't happen on an individual basis until well after we became members.

00:50:48.570 - 00:50:58.090

Peter Ludwig: Wow, okay, so it was definitely a mistranslation. Peter Ludwig: And kind of... Paul-Sean Gray: If you want to be nice, you can call it that. Peter Ludwig: Yeah.

00:50:59.000 - 00:51:17.470

Peter Ludwig: Yeah, that's fair. Paul-Sean Gray: As far as the other organizations, Paul-Sean Gray: when I was president of the Black Student Union, we created a Paul-Sean Gray: coalition for all the Greek organizations, and one of the things that we were instrumental in was making sure that

00:51:17.610 - 00:51:39.010

Paul-Sean Gray: The members of Iota Phi Theta were included. They were not a part of NPHC [National Pan-Hellenic Council] at that time. Paul-Sean Gray: Me and my cohorts, we took a lot of backlash from alumni, D9 or D8 members, as well as some of our friends on campus Paul-Sean Gray: at the time. Paul-Sean Gray: We'd like to say we were ahead of our time.

00:51:39.690 - 00:51:56.620

Paul-Sean Gray: But we felt like to have one Greek-letter organization Paul-Sean Gray: not part of our conversations at a majority university Paul-Sean Gray: was kind of self-defeating. Paul-Sean Gray: Um...

00:51:56.620 - 00:52:13.020

Peter Ludwig: I can see that. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah, so we thought… And once we started making that argument, people kind of Paul-Sean Gray: came around to our way of thinking. Paul-Sean Gray: We also brought the NAACP campus chapter to Towson University.

00:52:13.170 - 00:52:31.540

Paul-Sean Gray: With the help and guidance from Paul-Sean Gray: a much older alum, Phyllis Dawes, who recently passed about 10 months ago now. Paul-Sean Gray: Um... Paul-Sean Gray: And what else do we have? So I just wanted to make sure you got some things in there, you had a lot, so I wanted to make sure…

00:52:31.540 - 00:52:53.570

Peter Ludwig: Yeah, try to give you some variety, something to think about. Peter Ludwig: Let's see here… Paul-Sean Gray: If you want, like, the historical things, so the big historical things... Paul-Sean Gray: Personally, Ronald Reagan in around '84

00:52:54.150 - 00:53:16.520

Paul-Sean Gray: made major changes to college financial aid system. Paul-Sean Gray: So he took away and made… Reduced how aid was administered, either through Pell Grants. Paul-Sean Gray: And eliminated one of the Paul-Sean Gray: grants called Other Race Grant, and that was significant for a lot of us that were attending Towson,

00:53:16.650 - 00:53:39.360

Paul-Sean Gray: particularly for myself, and others I knew Paul-Sean Gray: closely. So you had to replace those monies, Paul-Sean Gray: particularly for me, my last two years. That was a major financial… Paul-Sean Gray: Created financial burden, I should say. The other one was, the Challenger crash.

00:53:40.580 - 00:54:02.340

Paul-Sean Gray: And if you didn't know, Ron McNear is a member, of Omega Psi Phi. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah. And the other major event was Paul-Sean Gray: Jesse Jackson's initial run for president was in '84. Paul-Sean Gray: So that was kind of a unifying thing on campus.

00:54:02.820 - 00:54:35.480

Paul-Sean Gray: Particularly since most of us did not like Reagan or appreciate him and his policies. And Paul-Sean Gray: we all grew up with Shirley Chisholm being the first Black person to run for office, but Jesse's Paul-Sean Gray: first run Paul-Sean Gray: seemed to garner a lot of enthusiasm and energy, and then he made major showing, of course, in his subsequent run in '88. But the first run was kind of a major news-worthy event. And then for those in the Baltimore region, the Colts' departure

00:54:35.480 - 00:54:51.810

Paul-Sean Gray: in the middle of the night, that was major. And then also the Orioles winning the championship. Paul-Sean Gray: First semester, yeah. So… Peter Ludwig: Little bit of politics, a little bit of sports, a little bit of everything. Paul-Sean Gray: Little everything, right.

00:54:51.810 - 00:55:18.570

Paul-Sean Gray: Um... Peter Ludwig: There was something here that I wanted to kind of cover before we close. Peter Ludwig: I mentioned earlier the Towson Alternative Press. Peter Ludwig: And the issue from 1987 said that racist graffiti is common on bathroom walls, social functions are almost totally segregated.

00:55:18.710 - 00:55:47.260

Peter Ludwig: Do you recall racism in that way on campus while you were there? Paul-Sean Gray: So, graffiti… Racism in graffiti, you could probably say graffiti was vulgar. And racist. Paul-Sean Gray: You can walk into any bathroom Paul-Sean Gray: from high school to McDonald's to, of course, your gas stations, and you'll see either something racist or something vulgar. Kind of commonplace

00:55:47.730 - 00:56:07.030

Paul-Sean Gray: during that time. Paul-Sean Gray: And try as you may, any institution that saw it, you know, you'll try to paint it out and Paul-Sean Gray: some creative jerk will come back real soon and write whatever. Paul-Sean Gray: So again, some of the overt stuff, you know.

00:56:07.280 - 00:56:35.220

Paul-Sean Gray: Not so much graffiti, but, like, subtle parts of racism was, Paul-Sean Gray: just a flashback, because it came back to me, was, you know, Rush Week for the white organizations was Paul-Sean Gray: widely populated and advertised on campus, either in the Union, or in the Towerlight, or big banners across campus. Paul-Sean Gray: Not so much for what was going on for the Black organizations.

00:56:36.310 - 00:56:51.150

Paul-Sean Gray: To the racist, like I said... Paul-Sean Gray: We almost, in my intramural… One of my intramural teams, we almost had Paul-Sean Gray: an incident with another team, Paul-Sean Gray: because they almost used an N-word.

00:56:51.700 - 00:57:06.900

Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah. Paul-Sean Gray: And we quickly tried to advise him that wouldn't be advisable. Paul-Sean Gray: So the melee did not occur. It was… It was very close, though. Paul-Sean Gray: You would see… You would hear in the distance some

00:57:07.180 - 00:57:21.960

Paul-Sean Gray: folks, particularly after they've been drinking, getting a little courage. Paul-Sean Gray: Wanting to say something derogatory. Paul-Sean Gray: Very rarely would they say it directly in your face. Paul-Sean Gray: It would probably be at a distance, or, you know,

00:57:22.090 - 00:57:41.580

Paul-Sean Gray: in a car passing by. Paul-Sean Gray: And so you didn't know if it was another college student or high school kids being stupid Paul-Sean Gray: when you saw them in a car or something. Particularly if he was walking up Paul-Sean Gray: York Road, going towards downtown Towson. So,

00:57:42.780 - 00:58:03.050

Paul-Sean Gray: the graffiti stuff, like I said, you can walk into the elevator, you'll see something. Paul-Sean Gray: You know, you kind of… It was par for the course, because that's the life and times you grew up in. Paul-Sean Gray: I mean, you can go to old TV shows, you can hear the N-word said. Paul-Sean Gray: You know, 70s television shows.

00:58:04.470 - 00:58:16.890

Paul-Sean Gray: We called them fighting words, so if you… If somebody actually Paul-Sean Gray: had the audacity to say it, like I said, within, you know, Paul-Sean Gray: 10, 20 feet of you, then it became a problem. Paul-Sean Gray: But it would…

00:58:17.780 - 00:58:58.250

Paul-Sean Gray: You would get mad, but it wasn't something that you… You're kind of accustomed to seeing it when you saw it in, like I said, bathroom stalls, or, Paul-Sean Gray: you know, you didn't see it on, like, dorm windows, because back then, people would put a lot of messaging on their windows that faced out. You wouldn't see anything like that in that manner. So it was always a cowardly approach, I'd say it that way, on how people kind of Paul-Sean Gray: chose to, you know, articulate their feelings. Peter Ludwig: Gotcha. So it wasn't as much outwardly in your face, it was more just the kind of people driving by, or again, like you said, with, like, liquid courage, you know, some drunk guy would scream something out of a window.

00:58:58.450 - 00:59:16.540

Paul-Sean Gray: And like I said, you know, the anonymous spray paint inside a bathroom, or whatever. Paul-Sean Gray: I don't recall anybody's car being vandalized in that manner. Paul-Sean Gray: Maybe egg, but not, you know, derogatory from a racial standpoint. Peter Ludwig: Gotcha.

00:59:16.810 - 00:59:43.590

Paul-Sean Gray: Now, there were other subtle examples. Paul-Sean Gray: So, I, myself, personally, I started… Whenever I get on an elevator, particularly Paul-Sean Gray: with white females, I always tried to go to as far as away from them as I could in an elevator. Paul-Sean Gray: And always to the front corner, so they can see me plainly,

00:59:43.740 - 01:00:11.570

Paul-Sean Gray: and show that I wasn't Paul-Sean Gray: any potential danger to them, Paul-Sean Gray: and would only speak if they spoke first, so to speak. You know, you would smile, but you wouldn't… You didn't want to, you know… Paul-Sean Gray: You didn't know how folks would react, so you just took it upon yourself. They were already slightly intimidated, so they didn't want to make it worse, unless they gave me a vibe that, okay, if I say hello, you won't scream,

01:00:12.300 - 01:00:33.430

Paul-Sean Gray: right? So, that was not just my experience, but a lot of other Black males' experiences as well. Peter Ludwig: And even as a white man on campus currently, I still do that, so I can completely emphasize with you. Paul-Sean Gray: But it felt more like, you know, Paul-Sean Gray: in order to avoid any type of bad interaction.

01:00:35.980 - 01:01:04.870

Paul-Sean Gray: It felt like a way to kind of protect yourself as the Black male. Paul-Sean Gray: Right, as opposed to… Paul-Sean Gray: I wasn't really… I was trying to be giving an assurance to the individual that I'm not somebody to be fearful of, but I also knew in the back of my mind that to make sure I did not get brought up on any type of charge, Paul-Sean Gray: it's best to limit those interactions as best as possible, and to give that person an assurance that this will be a very peaceful and non-eventful interaction with me.

01:01:05.380 - 01:01:15.280

Peter Ludwig: Gotcha. Peter Ludwig: Okay, that's interesting. It's a small window into how Peter Ludwig: life was for you back then. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah, you also…

01:01:15.460 - 01:01:41.690

Paul-Sean Gray: Sorry, I cut you off, but you also knew, you know, not to walk too close, particularly in the evening hours. Paul-Sean Gray: Or to walk past, I should say. Do your best to walk past Paul-Sean Gray: somebody, just to make sure, again, they didn't think you had some bad intentions. Paul-Sean Gray: You would see the purse slide from one side to the other, things of that... So you had those little subtle interactions that

01:01:41.910 - 01:02:08.490

Paul-Sean Gray: you kind of learn to adjust, Paul-Sean Gray: You knew what it came from. Paul-Sean Gray: Again, certain biases that people brought with them. So, it was best, particularly at a PWI, to just Paul-Sean Gray: not so much bring that to the forefront every time you encountered it, but just, okay, let me just make this person feel at ease, and maybe their mindset changes the next time.

01:02:09.410 - 01:02:22.370

Peter Ludwig: So it was more about appeasing than kind of bringing it up or saying something. Paul-Sean Gray: In a way, accommodating. Peter Ludwig: Accommodating, okay. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah, you're trying to accommodate their bias, and at the same time, trying to make your life more peaceful.

01:02:22.540 - 01:02:32.610

Peter Ludwig: Yeah. Okay. Paul-Sean Gray: Less drama. Peter Ludwig: I mean, I can imagine that was probably, at times, frustrating for you, being on campus, and every once in a while, that happening. Paul-Sean Gray: Oh, yeah.

01:02:32.610 - 01:02:50.610

Peter Ludwig: After so long, you can only do so much. Paul-Sean Gray: Well, it wasn't really because you were on campus, because it was part of the general Paul-Sean Gray: society as a whole. Paul-Sean Gray: So, that was kind of the norm. It was kind of a built-in… It was almost like, you know, I'm sure you heard,

01:02:51.230 - 01:03:13.480

Paul-Sean Gray: you know, the talk that we give each other when you get pulled over by the police, how to conduct yourself. It was almost the same type of, okay, when you find yourself in a Paul-Sean Gray: elevator or an enclosed environment with X-Y-Z, Paul-Sean Gray: protect yourself from any potential accusation by doing 1, 2, 3. Paul-Sean Gray: You know.

01:03:13.590 - 01:03:39.160

Peter Ludwig: So it's like a code of conduct, just to… Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah, it accommodated, appeased you, but at the end of the day, my life would be a lot easier if I don't bring any Paul-Sean Gray: untoward accusations towards me. Paul-Sean Gray: And if you go into your history at the university, you can pull up the name of Sheldon Nelson that kind of really highlighted this issue.

01:03:40.120 - 01:03:55.510

Paul-Sean Gray: He was a former football player, he was Paul-Sean Gray: about to be drafted by the NFL. Paul-Sean Gray: Sexual assault accusation with racial tones to it. Paul-Sean Gray: Ended up not being drafted, and he actually ended up suing the university.

01:03:56.440 - 01:04:06.170

Peter Ludwig: Did you know him, by chance? Paul-Sean Gray: Yes. Peter Ludwig: Wow, okay, so you've had a personal relationship… Well, not personal relationship, I shouldn't say that, but you knew him, you knew him. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah.

01:04:06.630 - 01:04:14.860

Peter Ludwig: Wow. Paul-Sean Gray: Uh... Paul-Sean Gray: But that was kind of, like, towards my Paul-Sean Gray: junior year, I think, when that happened.

01:04:16.380 - 01:04:32.540

Paul-Sean Gray: But the, you know, the mannerisms that you had to conduct yourself, or you felt, I should say, you felt you should conduct yourself in such a manner. Paul-Sean Gray: That was, like, learned behavior. Paul-Sean Gray: Right. Paul-Sean Gray: Just to make, like I said, someone feel comfortable that they wouldn't

01:04:32.820 - 01:04:46.080

Paul-Sean Gray: feel like they, you know, Paul-Sean Gray: you were some type of negative Paul-Sean Gray: experience about to happen in their life. Paul-Sean Gray: So…

01:04:46.230 - 01:05:10.250

Peter Ludwig: Sounds multifaceted. Paul-Sean Gray: Well, it always is. There's always layers to those types of conversations, right? Paul-Sean Gray: Because, like you said, you know, you're appeasing… Well, not really appeasing, I'm really Paul-Sean Gray: trying to make my life easier. So if I don't give you any cause for concern, then I can escape this interaction the way I came into it, without worrying about

01:05:10.490 - 01:05:40.520

Paul-Sean Gray: are you gonna say something or accuse me of something. So that was huge, I think, from a one-on-one thing. Back to the question you had, sorry. Peter Ludwig: No, you're good. Paul-Sean Gray: The question… Our activities were, like I said before, self-segregated. Paul-Sean Gray: One of the things… When I was president of BSU, in the fall of '86, we brought a… So, BSU

01:05:40.850 - 01:06:01.920

Paul-Sean Gray: took two floors of the union for homecoming weekend, Paul-Sean Gray: for parties. Paul-Sean Gray: Two different styles of music. One was a live band from the D.C. area. Paul-Sean Gray: At the time, the university always had a homecoming prom.

01:06:02.970 - 01:06:20.850

Paul-Sean Gray: Fall prom. Paul-Sean Gray: People dressed up like it was high school proms. Paul-Sean Gray: I can tell you, prior to that time, I didn't know but maybe one person that looked like me attended that event. Paul-Sean Gray: Yes.

01:06:21.350 - 01:06:47.400

Paul-Sean Gray: That was a big SGA event. Paul-Sean Gray: We held our event on two floors, that event took place on another floor, and I can say, Paul-Sean Gray: by the end of the night, there was no one in that formal event. Paul-Sean Gray: All of those attendees, in their prom gowns and tuxedos, were in one of our two events

01:06:47.600 - 01:07:07.160

Paul-Sean Gray: having a great time. Paul-Sean Gray: Pulling, you know, dressing down. The next year, the prom event was eliminated. Peter Ludwig: See, you guys had such a good party. Paul-Sean Gray: I think it was the beginning of breaking down the barriers, so to speak.

01:07:07.880 - 01:07:23.070

Paul-Sean Gray: Because we liked to say that because that one of those bands became nationally known, and we started doing that more and more, the subsequent administrations, Paul-Sean Gray: it actually became the foundation for Tigerfest. Peter Ludwig: Wow. Paul-Sean Gray: Yeah, so…

01:07:23.950 - 01:07:59.000

Paul-Sean Gray: So I'll go back. We had relationships… My fraternity, we had relationships with, like, 2 or 3 of the white fraternities, and we did a couple of joint parties with them. Paul-Sean Gray: So, and I became an events coordinator, which meant I was a student "bouncer" at parties. Paul-Sean Gray: I... Paul-Sean Gray: So you, you know, you interacted with a lot of different people, interacted with members, and it was, like, one fraternity that I knew most of their guys, because they started their chapter my junior year--

01:07:59.710 - 01:08:27.130

Paul-Sean Gray: sophomore year. Paul-Sean Gray: That we ended up having a lot of events, or, you know, Paul-Sean Gray: ball games with, or something. So, from… At the guy… At the male level, some of the barriers started breaking down as far as racial tension, but it was always Paul-Sean Gray: sensitive because of historical factors when it came to interacting with white females. And I had white female friends. We had about a handful that became

01:08:27.540 - 01:09:01.330

Paul-Sean Gray: sweethearts of our fraternity. We would have a lot of, a good number of students, I don't say a lot, but a good number of white students that came to our events from a party standpoint, joined organizations, as a matter of fact. Paul-Sean Gray: Particularly the sororities, they had white members Paul-Sean Gray: at the time. Paul-Sean Gray: But you can feel... You knew if you approach a female from a romantic standpoint, they,

01:09:01.480 - 01:09:34.270

Paul-Sean Gray: either through their own biases or whatever, Paul-Sean Gray: didn't want to take that risk. Paul-Sean Gray: In a couple cases, I remember or recall some of the girls actually telling me, you know, very not-so-subtle Paul-Sean Gray: tones, that wasn't going to happen, not because I had a romantic relationship or intentions with them, but just in conversing, being friends, so to speak, and them trying to tell me straight terms. They wouldn't date anyone, and it wouldn't be acceptable by the other members of

01:09:34.370 - 01:10:00.470

Paul-Sean Gray: their community on campus, and most importantly, at home. Paul-Sean Gray: So, unique times. We didn't have the blending, So, you know, now, Paul-Sean Gray: hip-hop is consumed more by white students, or white teenagers. Paul-Sean Gray: I'm at the beginning of hip-hop, so rap, and… That was not the case.

01:10:00.880 - 01:10:21.890

Peter Ludwig: Yeah. Paul-Sean Gray: Lynyrd Skynyrd and Van Halen was the top of the playlist for most white students. Peter Ludwig: Yeah, it was in ways blended, but very… Still segregated and separate. Paul-Sean Gray: Like I said, you can go into a cafeteria if you wanted the prime example of it.

01:10:21.990 - 01:10:37.360

Peter Ludwig: We pretty much clustered. Paul-Sean Gray: Um... Paul-Sean Gray: And at one point... Kind of funny, but at one point, Paul-Sean Gray: if you walk into the Glen at that time, part of the Glen still does, goes underneath the sidewalk.

01:10:38.350 - 01:10:50.070

Paul-Sean Gray: So it's kind of a semi-enclosed area. Paul-Sean Gray: If you're going down the steps to the right. Paul-Sean Gray: At one point, the only place you would find the majority of the Black students was in that area. Paul-Sean Gray: Because then you can talk.

01:10:50.480 - 01:11:18.040

Paul-Sean Gray: You can communicate without having to make sure you didn't… Who was over, you know, Paul-Sean Gray: listening in on your conversations. It gave you a little sense of privacy and seclusion at the same time. Paul-Sean Gray: Not to isolate, but I guess it would be isolating. Peter Ludwig: Did you feel like you kind of had to have that area, or that, like, outlet to speak freely? Like, there was somebody looking over you to see what you were saying?

01:11:18.970 - 01:11:43.390

Paul-Sean Gray: You just felt like… It was… You needed a buffer Paul-Sean Gray: to kind of have the kind of conversations you want to talk about. Paul-Sean Gray: In some cases, even what you, you know, what you wanted to eat Paul-Sean Gray: or consume without hearing the snarks or negative comments, right?

01:11:43.690 - 01:12:00.930

Paul-Sean Gray: So back to that other conversation, you know, Paul-Sean Gray: if you picked up watermelon from the salad bar or something, Paul-Sean Gray: you knew that somebody would probably make a snark, or Paul-Sean Gray: wanted to make some type of,

01:12:01.390 - 01:12:20.480

Paul-Sean Gray: derogatory comment. You could see it in their face, but you could tell they weren't gonna say it. Paul-Sean Gray: So you wanted to make sure if you were going to eat something like that, you can eat it in privacy, so to speak, Paul-Sean Gray: being around the other students of your community. Paul-Sean Gray: So, you know, one of the things that…

01:12:21.490 - 01:12:41.400

Paul-Sean Gray: The university tried to do two things, was Paul-Sean Gray: Black History Month, the cafeteria would serve certain items. Paul-Sean Gray: We felt like you were doing it… You were doing too much to try to Paul-Sean Gray: accommodate or represent us

01:12:41.570 - 01:13:03.750

Paul-Sean Gray: without any context behind certain things, like Hoppin' Johns, Cornbread, never did pig feet. Paul-Sean Gray: They never did chitlins. Paul-Sean Gray: I'm trying to think if it was something else out there. Peter Ludwig: But kind of other examples of, like,

01:13:03.990 - 01:13:39.220

Peter Ludwig: subtle but not so subtle racism. Paul-Sean Gray: Right, they thought it was, like, demonstrating, you know, our cultural heritage, but no one ever asked us Paul-Sean Gray: our opinion, and you kind of tell them, like, you're putting out these items, but you're not putting any context to them, Paul-Sean Gray: right? So now you're being subjected to… You can hear the jeers and the laughs on the other side by the other students. So when they went through the line ahead of you, you can hear them like, what is this crap? Right? You would hear that. So it's like, okay, are you really breaking down the barrier, or you're actually emphasizing whatever their prejudices

01:13:39.660 - 01:13:53.040

Paul-Sean Gray: were beforehand. Peter Ludwig: Yeah, it's kind of counterintuitive, almost. Paul-Sean Gray: Exactly. So, Paul-Sean Gray: and then the other thing that, once I became BSU president, we kind of pushed on the SGA was

01:13:53.150 - 01:14:16.990

Paul-Sean Gray: every year, there would be a contest from the SGA, because I was a pseudo-member of SGA, Paul-Sean Gray: auxiliary member of SGA, because I was representing the athletic department for SGA. Paul-Sean Gray: A non-elected member, put it that way. Paul-Sean Gray: They would have this contest every year, and first prize was

01:14:17.820 - 01:14:39.230

Paul-Sean Gray: free tanning booth session. One or two. Paul-Sean Gray: So it's like, so you just eliminated, like, 12 to 14, 15% of your population here, Paul-Sean Gray: because I don't need it, and so they had to change. Paul-Sean Gray: They went to, like, a $200 gift certificate or something after that, which is a pretty large amount of money back then.

01:14:39.330 - 01:15:01.420

Paul-Sean Gray: But so, again, sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's just not having any empathy for, Paul-Sean Gray: what the other community, how they would read certain things, or take those types of events. Paul-Sean Gray: Let me see what else is there. Well, I'll Paul-Sean Gray: let you ask.

01:15:02.850 - 01:15:17.910

Peter Ludwig: I mean, I feel like we definitely got a lot of information from you today. Paul-Sean Gray: Okay. Peter Ludwig: Before we kind of wrap up, Katie, did you have anything you wanted to ask about? Katie Radebaugh: No, I'm good.

01:15:18.800 - 01:15:38.050

Peter Ludwig: Good, okay. And then, Mr. Gray, is there anything you wanted to add before we leave? Paul-Sean Gray: I'm just looking over, seeing if anything comes to my head. Paul-Sean Gray: I think this was a pretty good conversation. I hope I gave you what you were looking for. Peter Ludwig: And again, at the end of the day, this is your story, so…

01:15:38.050 - 01:16:03.550

Paul-Sean Gray: Well, thank you. But you're looking for content, right? To kind of get a feel for how things were at the same time. I would add that in the spring of '87, we did engineer a sit-down in the president's office. Peter Ludwig: Okay. Paul-Sean Gray: That's in the Towerlight. Primarily because we felt... Paul-Sean Gray: So, back to your question again.

01:16:03.550 - 01:16:23.190

Peter Ludwig: Uh huh. Paul-Sean Gray: And back to that branding situation, accusation. Paul-Sean Gray: We felt that when there were certain, Paul-Sean Gray: how shall I say? Certain events or areas in which

01:16:24.910 - 01:16:37.890

Paul-Sean Gray: there may have been an infraction. Paul-Sean Gray: of rules, Paul-Sean Gray: it felt like it was kind of heavy-handed when you were someone who was Black. Paul-Sean Gray: Unfair treatment if you were Black,

01:16:39.450 - 01:16:58.580

Paul-Sean Gray: because again, it goes back to my first statement, that a lot of times, our presence, we felt like we were tolerated. Paul-Sean Gray: A lot of things that... Paul-Sean Gray: We probably got away with some things Paul-Sean Gray: as students, because it was almost like the out-of-sight, out-of-mind thing, if you…

01:16:58.760 - 01:17:20.920

Paul-Sean Gray: If they don't break anything, they're over there having a good time, we're not gonna bother them, right? So Paul-Sean Gray: one of those types of events was we used to have impromptu parties underneath the lecture hall, Paul-Sean Gray: particularly during exam week. Paul-Sean Gray: We would gather around 10 or 11 o'clock at night.

01:17:22.180 - 01:17:44.100

Paul-Sean Gray: Somebody will bring a boombox, playlist, whatever. Paul-Sean Gray: Campus police will come over. Paul-Sean Gray: But if they knew the person who was actually kind of engineered the gathering, pretty much said, you're cool between these hours, keep the music to this level, we don't care, right? Paul-Sean Gray: Now you gotta probably go get a permit to do something like that, right?

01:17:44.490 - 01:18:08.500

Paul-Sean Gray: One of the other things that happened was a lot of our financial… From our organization, whatever organization we were. Paul-Sean Gray: You generate your revenue or finances for any academic year through your parties Paul-Sean Gray: and things of that nature, gatherings. And for the Black community, Paul-Sean Gray: Newell's [inaudible] was a favorite place to have those parties.

01:18:09.030 - 01:18:26.420

Paul-Sean Gray: Around my junior year, it was determined that that tradition Paul-Sean Gray: was going to be eliminated, because it interfered with study habits, Paul-Sean Gray: other students in Newell. Paul-Sean Gray: Party started at 9, ended around 1 on Friday and Saturday night.

01:18:28.110 - 01:18:52.460

Paul-Sean Gray: So my response to the individual that was pushing that agenda was who's studying in 9, 10… Paul-Sean Gray: 11 o'clock, and parties really… Even though the party started at 9, Paul-Sean Gray: they didn't start until roughly 10:30, 11 o'clock Paul-Sean Gray: before they really… People start showing up, I should say.

01:18:52.460 - 01:19:08.430

Peter Ludwig: Gotcha. Paul-Sean Gray: So, for 2 hours, Paul-Sean Gray: who's being impacted, their study hours and study habits Paul-Sean Gray: on Friday and Saturday night, when I'm watching kegs of beer and cases of beer going in and out of these dorms, and I can go to any floor and hear loud music.

01:19:08.850 - 01:19:36.260

Paul-Sean Gray: So, again, it felt like unequal Paul-Sean Gray: adjudication of rules and regulations towards this one community. We felt like there was any infractions, that things kind of went heavy-handed against our community. Paul-Sean Gray: And again, you know, right, wrong, indifferent, you're gonna feel that way because you didn't have a lot of support, Paul-Sean Gray: and you didn't have a lot of representation

01:19:36.440 - 01:19:56.230

Paul-Sean Gray: from an administrative standpoint. Paul-Sean Gray: From what people who were… Paul-Sean Gray: Most of the folks on staff at that time were protecting their jobs, which I totally get. And that's where the loss of, like, Dean Chapman came in, because he had a lot of Paul-Sean Gray: weight, a lot of power on campus. So

01:19:57.090 - 01:20:09.300

Paul-Sean Gray: I didn't have that type of individual to kind of Paul-Sean Gray: fight some battles for us. Peter Ludwig: Gotcha. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Paul-Sean Gray: You're welcome.

01:20:09.300 - 01:20:24.510

Peter Ludwig: That's a good point to end on, definitely. It was just another aspect Peter Ludwig: of your life that you were able to share with us today, so… Paul-Sean Gray: Sure thing. Peter Ludwig: So, unless you have anything else, I just want to go over next steps with you, just so you're kind of kept in the loop.

01:20:25.350 - 01:20:43.520

Peter Ludwig: So next steps, we're gonna be working on a transcript for this discussion. Kind of go over that, analyze that, and then we're gonna end up publishing it for the archives, so… Paul-Sean Gray: Okay. Peter Ludwig: This will be documented and kept in Towson Archives. Paul-Sean Gray: Sounds good,I guess.

01:20:43.520 - 01:20:57.800

Peter Ludwig: Obviously, we'll definitely share the process with you as we go along, kind of keep you updated, and I'm sure we'll end up sending it to you once we're done and finished. Paul-Sean Gray: Okay. Peter Ludwig: But yeah, thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule, Peter Ludwig: speaking with us.

01:20:57.800 - 01:21:14.920

Paul-Sean Gray: Thank you for asking me. Peter Ludwig: Yeah, definitely. No, we appreciate your insight, and I know Peter Ludwig: some aspects of it are definitely traumatic, and some aspects are kind of you reflecting on your time at Towson, so Peter Ludwig: we just appreciate you being here, and…

01:21:14.920 - 01:21:21.560

Paul-Sean Gray: Well, I appreciate you all, too. Thank you. Peter Ludwig: Thank you so much. Peter Ludwig: Alright, I think that is it.