00:01:17.890 - 00:02:23.500

Koot, Christian: How are you today? Mike Dunne: Should I tell them my name? Koot, Christian: Alright, I'm gonna let the group… They're gonna ask you that, so, yes, we're gonna make that work. Mike Dunne: Somebody just popped on.

00:02:26.120 - 00:02:32.920

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay. Mike Dunne: Okay. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Hi. Mike Dunne: You see me, right? I don't know if I'm too close or too far away, I can't get this right.

00:02:32.920 - 00:02:41.630

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: No, you're perfect, we can see you. Mike Dunne: You can see my head, but you can't see my body, can you? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, we can see your... Mike Dunne: Here we go, there we go, now I got it.

00:02:42.160 - 00:02:54.710

Mike Dunne: Okay. Juno Wilson: Alright, good to go? Koot, Christian: Go for it. Juno Wilson: Okay, alright. Hello, Mr. Dune, and thank you for meeting with us today.

00:02:54.710 - 00:03:04.000

Mike Dunne: Okay, can you pronounce it "Dun?" Mike Dunne: Yeah, Dunne. The E is silent. Juno Wilson: Mr. Dunne, my fault. Mike Dunne: That's good. That's no problem. Everybody…

00:03:04.000 - 00:03:40.790

Mike Dunne: Yeah. Same thing, [everybody] makes that mistake. Juno Wilson: Yeah. Okay, my name is Juno Wilson, I'm here with the group members Nick and Kimia. Juno Wilson: We're conducting this interview as part of the Towson University's Oral History Project, which aims to document the experiences of individuals who have shaped the university's history and identity. We're very interested in learning your time in Towson, especially during your work in the Department of News and Publications, which was a… Juno Wilson: Near 3 decades, that's a lot of time. Before we begin, we want to make sure you've had the chance to review and sign the SCUA, oral history…

00:03:41.320 - 00:04:12.840

Mike Dunne: Yep. I've released everything. Anybody wants to use it, that's fine. Juno Wilson: Okay, thank you very much. We'll start by discussing your early experiences at Towson, and then move through changes in leadership, technology, and campus culture. Please feel free to pause at any time, or clarify your answer, as this conversation is about capturing your perspective and your view, your memories as well. Juno Wilson: Just so that you're entirely aware, nothing in this interview will be off the record, so please refrain from mentioning anything that you do not wish to be archived or captured in the video recording. Mike Dunne: No problem.

00:04:13.300 - 00:05:22.950

Juno Wilson: Okay, awesome! With the first question, I want to begin, you joined Towson State College in 1971 during a great time of change in higher education in American society. What were your first impressions of the campus and its culture when you arrived? Mike Dunne: Actually, my wife started in 1965, and I worked for... Earl T. Hawkins was the president at the time. And she worked for the assistant to the president, and then she also worked for the Computer Center, which was the first one, I think, ever, in the state of Maryland. And so that was kind of interesting seeing that. I mean, it was one big, huge room, and they had this Mike Dunne: tapes that went around, and programs. But that was her story. My story is I came out of service, finished up at college, and started at Towson University in 1971, when James Fisher, we call him Jim, Mike Dunne: was the president. He started in '69, I think, and when he came in, he changed everything. He actually brought with him my boss, which was Bill Kerry, Paul Wisdom, which was

00:05:22.950 - 00:05:52.990

Mike Dunne: the new director of Mike Dunne: financial… Not financial aid. New Department of Development. Mike Dunne: He was a fundraiser, Mike Dunne: which we'd never had before. We'd never had a fundraiser, we'd never had a news person like Bill Kerry or design that I started. He also brought with him a vice president who was fantastic, I can't remember his name, he ended up leaving and becoming a big

00:05:53.050 - 00:06:30.630

Mike Dunne: president, big shot in Northeast, I think it was, Northwest, can't remember. But it was an interesting time, because it was so exciting as a young person Mike Dunne: coming into a situation where Mike Dunne: it was all cut and paste. When we did something, we had to cut paper and glue it down, and our drawings Mike Dunne: made it easy, because we would draw something, and it would be fast. If we had to take a photograph, we had to wait and develop it, and then bring it back, and have it, you know, enlarged, the whole nine yards. So that was a big

00:06:31.330 - 00:07:16.580

Mike Dunne: thing at the time. We were recruiting, and I forgot how many students it was. I have it Mike Dunne: on that thumbnail I sent to everybody, it was… Actually, Ashley, I'm sorry, she took it, and it talked about how many students it was when Jim Fisher was there, and it ended up being, like, 10,000 before he left. It was, like, 6,000-something, it ended up being 10,000. The reason it increased that much, and then the buildings, oh my god, there were so many buildings that was Mike Dunne: built. And it was so exciting being part of that. Mike Dunne: I started out in a trailer right across from the administration building. Earl T. Hawkins

00:07:16.690 - 00:07:53.190

Mike Dunne: was gone, but his office was there, which was a huge fireplace, and the ceilings were gigantic. Mike Dunne: If you go there, you won't find it. It's all cleared out and made into a nice office. But I would have to leave the trailer and sit on the curb while my boss would have a conference for somebody, and then come back in again. So it was fun. It was interesting. It was a learning tool for me. Mike Dunne: It was a family. It was Mike Dunne: terrific, because we didn't go home on weekends. We had

00:07:53.300 - 00:08:18.460

Mike Dunne: softball teams, we had bowling teams, you name it. Mike Dunne: Asian Art Center. We would go there on weekends and just have a blast. I don't want to get in too much, I wanted to ask questions. Did you get a chance to see any of the stuff that I gave Ashley? Juno Wilson: Yes, we have. Mike Dunne: You did? Okay, okay.

00:08:19.360 - 00:09:03.880

Mike Dunne: What I wanted to say is the history of Towson State College, Towson State University, Towson University, Mike Dunne: it's all in the publications. Mike Dunne: Which was started in 1971, and everything that we did, including Asian Arts, it was... Mike Dunne: Hank Levy, I don't know if you've ever heard of Hank Levy and the jazz ensemble? He was one of the biggest jazz ensembles in the United States. He was beating all the competitions, and they would have a concert every year, Under the Stars, and Hank Levy would be there, and we would invite people not just from the school

00:09:03.880 - 00:09:47.340

Mike Dunne: but from the community, and that's what I liked about it the most. I mean, we met more people from the community, and the students, I think, enjoyed that, because they had a chance to, you know, talk about their school to these people, and I think it helped Mike Dunne: increase the enrollment, to tell you the truth. But I don't know, I could go on and on and on. My wife told me to not talk too much, and just answer questions. So that's all I'd like to do. Do you have any questions? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, within your answer right there, you had mentioned Hank Levy and the Under the Stars program. Mike Dunne: Yes.

00:09:47.340 - 00:10:20.980

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Do you… Was that programming basically driven out of the campus culture, or, like, was that, like, the young adult Kimia Parvizimotlagh: culture at the time, or was this more so, like, a staffing influence? Mike Dunne: Nope, it was all students. Mike Dunne: And it was actually... The jazz ensemble was actually a course, and they would join Hank Levy's jazz ensemble, and they'd learn how to play instruments, and so forth and so on, and then they'd go out and have competitions, just like the athletic departments.

00:10:21.130 - 00:10:44.530

Mike Dunne: And so, that's what was so exciting about it. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, so, totally. That is really cool. It sounds like a great time. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Within that Under the Stars programming, I was curious, though, what was, like, the demographic of students involved with it? Like, was it mainly, like, male students, female students, or a certain, like… Mike Dunne: All kinds, all kinds. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Oh, wow.

00:10:44.530 - 00:11:28.750

Mike Dunne: Yeah, I mean, everything. Faculty, students, administrators, you name it, they're all participants. And, again, they're all students that were playing. Mike Dunne: In this ensemble. He made… I forgot how many albums, which I think helped the students out when they went to get a job, because they had albums already produced that they played in. So it was Mike Dunne: exciting. That was one of the most exciting things I had, because, I became real good friends with Hank, and I ended up going and watching them produce the albums. Back then, it was, like, old school. They had a big… Mike Dunne: I forgot what they call them now. It was a desk, and they had a… They were recorded

00:11:29.050 - 00:12:11.350

Mike Dunne: while the thing was spinning, and that's how they recorded the album. And then they made copies of it. So I learned from him. But now it's like, you know, push a button, it's done. Mike Dunne: I could talk about when computers started, how interesting that was. Mike Dunne: And one of the people that you might know actually brought the computers to Towson University, and his name was Bob Caret, Mike Dunne: who became the president of Towson University. And he was a faculty member, and then when Hoke Smith wanted to get more involved in having everything updated, he hired

00:12:11.660 - 00:12:35.960

Mike Dunne: Bob Caret to come in there and actually put things together. That's how we got our computers. And so it was really neat to have a faculty member who became the president. Mike Dunne: And that happened twice. I don't know if you know who the other person was, do you? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Let me think… Mike Dunne: It was a woman.

00:12:38.520 - 00:12:43.660

Mike Dunne: Come on, you're in history! Mike Dunne: Think. Juno Wilson: It’s on the tip of my tongue. Mike Dunne: Who?

00:12:43.770 - 00:12:53.940

Mike Dunne: How many presidents have we had? Juno Wilson: We had a huge [number]. Mike Dunne: You give up? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: I think we give up, I think we give up.

00:12:53.940 - 00:13:09.010

Mike Dunne: Maravene Gillespie, Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay. Mike Dunne: who died of, breast cancer. I think she was only president for 2 years. I was gone at the time when she came. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, so that was after 2006, because you retired in 2006, right?

00:13:09.510 - 00:13:19.010

Mike Dunne: I met Maravene Gillespie when she was a student. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Oh, really? Mike Dunne: And she was part of the Glen Players. Mike Dunne: You know where the Glen is?

00:13:19.640 - 00:13:48.560

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yes. Mike Dunne: You do? Okay, it's right by Stevens Hall. You go down the hill, there's a little pavilion there, and that's where they used to perform. And then, when they built the Fine Arts Building, of course, Mike Dunne: it became really famous because we had a lot of well-named people come in and wanting to Mike Dunne: not star in it but help produce them, and we actually had a lot of, and you're gonna… I'm gonna

00:13:48.700 - 00:14:07.060

Mike Dunne: mess my mind up, because we had Mike Dunne: famous actors that graduated from Towson University that played in the Glen Players and also at Fine Arts. But Maravene became the Dean of Fine Arts. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Wow. Mike Dunne: And then…

00:14:07.060 - 00:14:23.790

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So a lot of… Mike Dunne: Later on, and then came back here. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: A lot of what you're sharing, with us is basically what's been defining Towson's public image. We actually have another question related to that, and I feel like this is a great leeway into that question. Mike Dunne: Okay.

00:14:23.790 - 00:15:09.200

Juno Wilson: For next question, as part of the new Department of News and Publications, how did you and your colleagues define Towson's public image? What story did the college want to tell about itself in the early 70s? Mike Dunne: Well, we wanted to be a multicultural institution, okay? We were trying to increase our number one minority, which was male. Mike Dunne: It was mostly female, so we were trying to increase that, plus African Americans. We were trying to get more African Americans involved. And I think when I… I think we had, like, 11% back in the 80s, and we kept on… Mike Dunne: It kept on getting better and better and better, because we started using

00:15:09.200 - 00:15:51.520

Mike Dunne: more… I hate to say this. Mike Dunne: Trying to encourage males to come, because it was a teacher's college, okay? And what happened after Vietnam, we got a lot of students coming in, and they were male, black Mike Dunne: and white males. And that helped increase the minority at Towson University, Mike Dunne: which is also very interesting, because we had a lot of Vietnam veterans working at Towson University. One was, named, I wrote it down so I wouldn't forget it, so Paul, let me…

00:15:51.600 - 00:16:19.960

Mike Dunne: There's Paul… Okay, here we go. His name was Harry Gwynn. Mike Dunne: He won three Bronze Stars Mike Dunne: in Vietnam. Mike Dunne: And there was a man who was in HR who had a Bronze Star. He was in charge of HR, I can't remember his name. But we had a lot of veterans there, which was great. And Harry and I became real good friends. He worked at the printing center, his uncle

00:16:19.960 - 00:16:53.460

Mike Dunne: was in charge at one time. Then he ended up working over by facilities. Mike Dunne: But it was also interesting, because that was the time, it was the ending of the Vietnam War, and we had a lot of protests. Mike Dunne: And that was, like, in '71. I mean, we had a lot of protests, and they actually came into my office at one time, and they came into the administration building, which was Stevens Hall. Mike Dunne: And they tried to close down the… Back then, we had to have

00:16:53.790 - 00:17:33.130

Mike Dunne: a phone department. Telephone. And that's… Mike Dunne: It was a big room, and it was, like, 3 or 4 people working there, and that's how we got our phone calls. And they tried to close that down, and it was kind of interesting, you know, that they were protesting as we were basically closing down Vietnam War. Mike Dunne: But it was interesting. So, protests didn't start now, it was back in the 70s, okay? And it went on. There was a lot of them, believe me. And it was interesting. But... Mike Dunne: Did I answer your question? [laughter] No.

00:17:33.130 - 00:18:13.950

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, yes, yes you did, you absolutely did, and thank you for all the insight you're giving us, but more so, like... Kimia Parvizimotlagh: When all these protests were going on, when these big, like, political things were going on on, like, the national scale, was there, like, a conversation occurring Kimia Parvizimotlagh: within the Department of News and Publications? Like, I understand that you were witnessing it, but was there a certain way that Towson's actions towards depicting student involvement, or, like, Kimia Parvizimotlagh: any perspectives? Like, was there a conversation going on saying how we're gonna go about this?

00:18:14.160 - 00:18:54.410

Mike Dunne: Not really. We were basically just trying to make sure we could calm down the students. We didn't know how, at that time, what to do about it. As far as publications go, my publications were really based Mike Dunne: on recruitment, Mike Dunne: and the image of the university. The first logo was a cupola. I don't know if I put that in my copy or not. Mike Dunne: The cupola I designed back in… I think it was '71, and we went all the way through until we became… Oh my god, we had that Cupola for years, and it's really interesting, you go on the web now, you can't find it.

00:18:54.410 - 00:19:19.990

Mike Dunne: It's gone. Mike Dunne: It vanished. And so it was kind of interesting that a lot of the stuff that you're studying now, I hope, Mike Dunne: can get on the web. You know, because there's a lot of stuff that's not on there now. Mike Dunne: We had… I'm looking at my notes again here, I'm sorry to do that, but, we had student union building events, where we had a bowling alley.

00:19:19.990 - 00:19:54.250

Mike Dunne: And we also had, different, oh, I'm trying to think of… It was like a restaurant, but they actually served beer there, too. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Oh, wow. Mike Dunne: No, I know, back then, that was strange. Mike Dunne: But anyway, that's where the students got together. They had a pool hall, I mean, it was like, it was unbelievable. Games inside the union, and it was exciting, because it gave us a chance to get involved with them also, because we went out to bowl, and then we went out and drank beer with them, you know, so it was like, it was fun, and we had a good time. And there was other things, the Asian Art Collection.

00:19:54.390 - 00:20:25.060

Mike Dunne: I don't know if you still have that or not. Mike Dunne: But that was established, I forgot when it was, but we brought in a lot of Asian collections from different donors, and we had it in the fine arts building, and we actually had a van that would go around to all the different schools and show them the Asian art Mike Dunne: pieces. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: We actually did review your, like, all your documentation of the Asian arts

00:20:25.060 - 00:20:57.860

Mike Dunne: Yeah. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: collection. We saw all of that, yeah. We were actually wondering… Kimia Parvizimotlagh: when we were reviewing those archives, I know it was donors who were bringing the art to campus, to Towson. Like, what was the demographic of these donors? Or do you remember, like, the origin of these pieces? Do you remember any storyline behind it? Mike Dunne: There's a lot of it, and I'll tell you the truth, I can't remember, because it's been such a long time ago. I remember the one man... And Jim Fisher

00:20:58.070 - 00:21:33.170

Mike Dunne: used to play tennis. Mike Dunne: And all these guys that came and donated money was tennis players. And they were in the community. And that's what I was trying to say. Mike Dunne: When he was active, he was outside the institution, and he was working with different individuals to contribute money, Mike Dunne: to contribute artwork that we could use. And then he had his vice presidents that were controlling and working the inside of the institution, where they were controlling what classes were and what courses

00:21:33.170 - 00:22:16.610

Mike Dunne: we were trying to get at that time, and so he was more of a… How can I say it? Mike Dunne: Outward person, where he was, like, a really good looking guy, he was out there driving a sports car. Mike Dunne: And everybody loved him, everybody knew him. I remember I was a photographer, I was hired to take photographs of the Asian Art Collection, and that's how I got there, to Towson. And I also started drawing graphics at the time. So, I remember I would have to go to events Mike Dunne: that he would have, which would be almost every weekend. And he would make sure that everybody had their name tags showing, and I would be able to take a picture of him and the person, and make sure that the name tag was showing.

00:22:16.610 - 00:23:05.800

Mike Dunne: And then I'd have to hurry up, run over, develop all the photographs of all the people that were there at the event, and then get it over to him the next day, so his assistant could go through and get the names, and get the addresses, and who they were, and all that. Mike Dunne: So Jim Fisher could take the photograph and sign it, and write a note, and send it to all these people. Mike Dunne: And so it was kind of interesting because, these people were the donors. These people started to contribute money. And when the Alumni Association started, a woman named Sally Souris... Mike Dunne: I don't know if you ever heard of Souris' Saloon, I don't think they closed it, it was in Towson. She was married to the guy who owned that, but she graduated from Towson University, and then she became the alumni

00:23:05.950 - 00:23:36.940

Mike Dunne: director, and then she became the Mike Dunne: Vice President for Development, and then she left. I dont know what she ended up doing, but she's still part of the Alumni Association. But at that particular time, the Alumni Association got really big, Mike Dunne: and they got a lot of contributors. And I think it's still strong, I don't know if it is or not, but that's something you guys should look into, because you can get a lot of information from them, Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:36.940 - 00:24:13.460

Mike Dunne: and hopefully get some money, because Ashley was talking about worrying about getting money to support your classes. Mike Dunne: And that would be one of them, I would suggest, is the Alumni Association, find out who's in charge of that. I don't know, but even go to one of the events Mike Dunne: and volunteer to come in and talk, and also the Foundation. Find out who's in charge of the Foundation, and go there and tell them what you're trying to do, and bring the history back to the institution. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah.

00:24:13.460 - 00:24:51.950

Mike Dunne: There's a lot of stuff you can do, but back to history. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, it sounds like you were quite fond of James Fisher, or Jim Fisher, as you've been calling him. Moving forwards, we had another question for you Juno Wilson: Related to the several presidents, throughout your time at Towson, you've worked under these several presidents, such as Fisher, Smith, Perkins, or Caret. Did any of them ever directly guide or influence on how you shape the university's public image? Mike Dunne: I think Jim Fisher was the man that really helped to shape it, because he was really involved in it.

00:24:51.950 - 00:25:43.780

Mike Dunne: Okay? I've kind of… He was only there for, like, four years or something, but man, he did a lot of changes. Hoke Smith was kind of a low-level type personality, quiet. Mike Dunne: He worked within the institution, but didn't like to go outside the institution, and so he had other people doing it, okay? So he left us alone. Mike Dunne: To a point where he would approve stuff that we were doing, but we were the ones in our departments, which was, you know, the marketing, alumni, news, design publications, news publications. They were the ones that really took hold of it, and really started, Mike Dunne: you know, helping out and getting that image out there. One thing we really enjoy doing, I think, and when Jim Fisher, I keep on...

00:25:43.780 - 00:26:17.450

Mike Dunne: Hoke was great. I love Hoke. He was there, like, 30 years, so he was like a father to me, to tell you the truth. And we did a lot together, too. It was great. And he did… Made a lot of changes. A lot of changes. Mike Dunne: And again, that was on that letter I think I gave you guys. I wish I could remember it, though, I could tell it and be… Mike Dunne: Audio. But anyway, when Jim Fisher would say, let's do this, Mike Dunne: he wanted an image that every department would have to use.

00:26:17.810 - 00:26:43.020

Mike Dunne: And that was the cupola, okay? And every department, when they produce something, that was the... That was any kind of... Mike Dunne: Let's see. Mike Dunne: I think I did produce… I think I sent you some of them, but your yearbook, okay, had to have the cupola on it. Any kind of publications that they would think they want, Mike Dunne: that would have to have it. Posters,

00:26:43.230 - 00:27:32.690

Mike Dunne: outside displays, all that. But then we decided, well, we're gonna make sure that's going to be done, so we ended up getting a budget from the provost to do all the publications. So, no publications at Towson University Mike Dunne: could be produced unless they came through my department. Mike Dunne: So, and we had the money for it, so if, say, the English department came around and said, we need a brochure. We said, okay, well, you know, let's see if I can get the budget billed up. And then I'd produce a brochure for them, and that one went for the entire Mike Dunne: institution. They could not produce anything unless they came through us. And another way we were able to handle it, we had to write requisitions, which is, requesting printing.

00:27:32.890 - 00:28:04.570

Mike Dunne: And nobody could do that, except my department. Mike Dunne: And Mike Dunne: so we could do that, so we controlled it. I hate to say that, but we ended up controlling the institution, so they couldn't really do anything without our OK in it. I think it's still doing that. And you might want to talk to Mike Dunne: Pallansch, Rick Pallansch, who took my place. He's good, he's really good. There are publications coming out of there now, it's like, wow, we couldn't have done that back in the old days. So he was a designer that was hired.

00:28:04.660 - 00:28:28.290

Mike Dunne: And he became, I thought, one of the best ones, and now he's in charge of it. So definitely go talk to him, too. You know, Mike Dunne: but that's what we did. We controlled it. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, you were speaking about Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Fisher and his attempt at reeling in, like, big donors, community members. And then it transitioned into Hoke

00:28:28.800 - 00:29:27.600

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: basically giving you guys a lot of freedom, or do you not agree with that? Mike Dunne: Yeah, freedom, I would say. Yeah, Hoke did a lot, but he basically would come and talk to us, you know, and we would say, well, we'd like to do this, this, and then he would say, okay. Now, I'm not saying that he didn't do it, I mean, my God, he got buildings done, he had new... Mike Dunne: I think it was the business department, I forgot all the different new departments that he did. He did amazing jobs, amazing jobs. But again, he was a quiet guy, you know, easygoing, I loved him, he's great, and he did do a lot. Mike Dunne: The activities and all that stuff he showed up for and participated in it and all that. And then after Hoke left, there was a guy named Perkins, I think his name was. He only lasted 6 months. He was, like, in and out, man. He was an interesting character. I don't want to say anything

00:29:27.870 - 00:29:56.500

Mike Dunne: bad about him. I think he was… Mike Dunne: He was interesting, very interesting. And then after that, I think it was Caret, wasn't it? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yep. Mike Dunne: It was Caret after that, yeah. And he was a neat guy. He was a neat guy. And he was external also. He got involved in external matters, bringing in people, raising money, getting the activities going. That's when we had football, for example.

00:29:56.670 - 00:30:52.550

Mike Dunne: Interesting because, when football was established, Mike Dunne: our stadium was bad. We had no stadium at all. I mean, it was, like, nothing. You had to go outside to go to the bathroom. It was so bad. But, you know, that changed, and my God, that's amazing now. It's just absolutely fantastic. They had Doc Minnegan... Mike Dunne: It was called… It was actually called Doc Minnegan Stadium. It ended up being Johnny Unitas Stadium, because he had a bigger name, but we got a lot of donors because of that name. And there's a... As you can tell, football's fantastic now. Mike Dunne: Lacrosse, I've sent you a lot of information about lacrosse, because we had the first Black lacrosse player in Maryland. He was on the lacrosse team, and he was good. He was really good.

00:30:52.550 - 00:31:40.740

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, our next question actually was about him, about Wendell Thomas. We were looking at your work, with him in it, and we had a question about it, so is it okay if we ask that? Mike Dunne: I didn't know him personally. Okay, okay. I know him through the coach, who Mike Dunne: actually was one of my best friends, I can't remember his name. Mike Dunne: He just died. I can't remember his name, I can't remember it. He was there when I first got there, and he was coaching lacrosse and football, so it shows you how important football was in lacrosse, you know? Had one coach that would coach both of them. Rook. Carl Rook.

00:31:40.740 - 00:32:11.580

Mike Dunne: Okay? And, he was a fantastic guy. Fantastic. And he took the number 2 lacrosse team to the championship Mike Dunne: the Hobart, and beat them. And that was the first time we had a championship team in lacrosse. Mike Dunne: And now I think they are… I don't know if they're still, number 2 or number… Mike Dunne: Divisions. Are they in Division 1 now? I'm not sure. But, there's different divisions they're in.

00:32:11.730 - 00:32:38.070

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: I think we might be D… D1? Juno Wilson: Yeah, D1 for lacrosse and football. Mike Dunne: And football, okay, so this is the one that… Yeah. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay. Mike Dunne: Tough part about lacrosse and football, which is also interesting, for recruiting, we were trying to get students, and that's one of the reasons we had a lot of students that are coming from Rhode Island and New York, is because we were in that division.

00:32:38.730 - 00:33:03.200

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay. Mike Dunne: They saw the football games, and Towson was part of it. So that's how we got a lot of recruits from Long Island, especially. And the same thing about lacrosse. We were getting a lot of students from… I don't know if that's still happening or not, but there's a lot of students from Long Island and New York area that came south Mike Dunne: to Towson. Mike Dunne: Are you still… I don't know if you know that or not, but that's what…

00:33:03.640 - 00:33:25.930

Mike Dunne: That was happening back when I was working, and I thought, this is great. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: I'm not sure if it's necessarily Long Island and New York Mike Dunne: Yeah. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: now, but we do find student athletes from, like, all types of places. Yeah. But specifically, I know you mentioned that you didn't necessarily know Wendell Thomas. We did have a question, if it's okay if we ask that.

00:33:25.930 - 00:34:07.650

Mike Dunne: Okay. Juno Wilson: Did you at least have any role in the process of interviewing him, or crafting how his story was presented, as one of your brochures in 1974 did feature him? Mike Dunne: Yes. I did not interview him, I produced the publication, okay? So the person who interviewed him was actually our news and publications and marketing department. And what we did was they would put together Mike Dunne: the people, and say, okay, we want to highlight these people. And back then, we used to give out calendars. As you see, it was a calendar, you know? I mean, who… We'd give it to everybody, you know? Students,

00:34:07.650 - 00:34:24.890

Mike Dunne: alumni, just to get the name out. But they would produce all that. So they were the ones that actually picked him, Mike Dunne: along with the other ones. Mike Dunne: And then I would just take that, take his photograph. Mike Dunne: And then put the publication together.

00:34:24.970 - 00:35:06.380

Mike Dunne: Okay, so I didn't really have the opportunity of really talking to him. I wish I did. He was a fantastic person. We had a lot of Black faculty members that were really good guys, and I had a lot of friends I played softball with that were Black. Mike Dunne: And they were a part of the administration Mike Dunne: and faculty. So it was an interesting mix, especially when, towards the, Mike Dunne: you know, 90s, I would say. I think we finally ended up having a lot of... I forgot when the Student Union, the Black Student Union, started,

00:35:06.720 - 00:35:22.900

Mike Dunne: you know, but, that was… That was a good group of people, too, you know, but… Mike Dunne: But other than that, no, I didn't get a chance to talk too much. I wish I did, you know, but… Mike Dunne: Anything else? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, we have a few more questions. Good.

00:35:22.900 - 00:35:41.880

Mike Dunne: Go for it. Juno Wilson: Related to it, do you recall any discussions among your colleagues, campus staff, or faculty about how that publication portrayed race or diversity at Towson? How was it received at that time? Mike Dunne: Oh, everybody loved it. Mike Dunne: I think because everybody knew we were trying to recruit minority

00:35:41.920 - 00:36:25.130

Mike Dunne: students. Now, remember, I was telling you minority students, they were not just blacks, but they were white males. Because if you think about it, they weren't there either. It was all female school, Mike Dunne: back in the, you know, well, long time ago, the 60s, 70s, beginning 70s, but we also had Black Mike Dunne: students in the 70s. There was a sign, I don't know if you saw the photograph, it was a black woman, girl, I should say, a student, standing by a sign that they changed. Mike Dunne: And it was right next to Stevens Hall. Now, I forgot what they changed it to. But I took the photograph. I can't even remember what it was, but it was so long ago. So again, we were trying to push

00:36:25.260 - 00:36:42.710

Mike Dunne: and trying to recruit minorities. And I think it worked. I think it did, you know? Mike Dunne: You know? Mike Dunne: And I know it did, because I think right now it's pretty well, mixed, isn't it? Percentage-wise? Juno Wilson: Minority, minority.

00:36:42.990 - 00:36:52.080

Juno Wilson: 60-40. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah. Offscreen: 40%. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, our third group member who's off-screen, yeah, just confirmed.

00:36:52.080 - 00:37:06.100

Mike Dunne: That's fine. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Exactly. Mike Dunne: We need them. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, so I understand that you're speaking of the positive perceptions, but, like, anywhere, within any of your memories, do you recall anything of the opposite, of the latter?

00:37:06.340 - 00:37:29.980

Mike Dunne: Nope. Nope, nope, it was all positive. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Do you think you would have had a different experience if you were a student at the time compared to someone who wasn't within, like, the general student population? Mike Dunne: Well, let me tell you, I went to a school, it's called Baltimore City College. That was my high school. Do you know… Have you ever heard of Baltimore City College? Juno Wilson: My uncle went there.

00:37:30.220 - 00:38:19.320

Mike Dunne: There you go. I played football for a guy named George Young, who ended up being a general manager for the New York Giants. Won two Super Bowls. Anyway, back then, there was a third Black, third Jewish, and a third Gentile. So I grew up... Mike Dunne: And some of my best friends are Black. And so, no, I didn't have any problems at all, you know? And my niece is married to a black guy. So, no. I had no problems back then, I have no problems now, and I don't think anybody I talked to had problems back then, you know? Mike Dunne: I mean, they had fraternities. Mike Dunne: Just like the girls' fraternities and the guys… White guys' fraternity, I don't think it was mixed, though, because I don't think the girls were part of the white guys' fraternity, or the Black ones.

00:38:19.540 - 00:38:50.870

Mike Dunne: So, you know, it was divided up, I think. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, so you just brought up Greek life. It's the Divine Nine that is the Black Kimia Parvizimotlagh: fraternity structure for, like, men and women. Do you remember when they, like, first made an appearance on campus or anything? Mike Dunne: Oh, but I do remember, it was really neat, I loved it. My office had a huge window that overlooked the parking lot over by

00:38:51.490 - 00:39:19.370

Mike Dunne: Osler Drive and Towson and… What's it called? The Towson Mike Dunne: Bypass? I forgot where it is. It's a building, looks like a pyramid chopped in half. I think it's… I don't know if it's still an administration building or not, but it's right over… If you take Osler Drive all the way down to the ends. Mike Dunne: Towsontown Boulevard, is that what it is? Mike Dunne: Comes across, you don't know. Anyway, my... That was all

00:39:19.650 - 00:39:44.080

Mike Dunne: dorms down there, but it's a real tiny place. Mike Dunne: Shoot, what was the name of the street? Anyway, my… I faced the parking lot, and I remember all these guys, the black guys, they were stepping. Mike Dunne: I don't know, they were singing and stepping, and coming down Mike Dunne: the park...

00:39:44.540 - 00:40:17.870

Mike Dunne: Parking lot coming into the building for a meeting. And it was so fascinating, because it was, like, unbelievable watching these guys all in the same step, going down that way. You know, so, no, I thought… I didn't see anything Mike Dunne: bad about anything. I've never heard about it, nothing, nothing. Mike Dunne: You know, so… It was all positive. Mike Dunne: In fact, this is interesting, I don't know if it's fact or not, but I remember my boss back in the 70s was talking about they were trying to get

00:40:17.990 - 00:40:44.080

Mike Dunne: Morgan to say they were a white institution, and Towson was trying to say they were a black institution, just to get students, Mike Dunne: white students to go to Morgan, and black students to go to Towson. And that was… I don't know if that was a pep talk or what, but, you know, I remember that Mike Dunne: to this day. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Was that, like, a friendly joke between, like, the presidents of the schools or something…

00:40:44.080 - 00:41:00.590

Mike Dunne: Well, I think everybody pretty well wanted to do that. They were trying to get the schools to segregate. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah. Mike Dunne: And they were trying to get that, you know, white students at Morgan, and black students at Towson. Mike Dunne: You know? So, it was interesting.

00:41:01.160 - 00:41:45.030

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah. No, that is very interesting. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, a lot of our conversation has been geared towards men as the minority, especially after Vietnam, and the transition from it being a… Towson being a teaching college, and being mainly female students. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: We did notice one thing, and… Juno Wilson: For that, the 1981-82 university calendar did feature women in academic and professional roles. What inspired that focus, and how did it reflect broader changes for women at Towson and in higher education? Mike Dunne: I… Say that again, how you're talking about women, being part of…

00:41:45.590 - 00:42:13.160

Juno Wilson: Women in academic and professional roles. Mike Dunne: We had vice presidents that were… Mike Dunne: I mean, we had Vice President for Student Services that was a female. My bosses, every one of them in my entire career, there were females. Mike Dunne: So the females ran the school a lot, you know? I mean, they were really active. And then we had deans. We already talked about the deans, you know? But no, there were

00:42:13.870 - 00:42:48.100

Mike Dunne: probably a lot… I don't know what percentage it was, but there was a lot of female Mike Dunne: deans, vice presidents, you name it, it was pretty well... Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, this specific archive that we had found, it was the 1981-1982 calendar, and I know we were talking about calendars a little bit ago. Specifically on that piece, and I wish I had it with me just to hold it up, it was… Mike Dunne: I did it.

00:42:48.100 - 00:43:16.720

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: It was a large picture of, Kimia Parvizimotlagh: like, a white female student graduating, and then there was a smaller picture of an African American student in, like, a laboratory, and there were some men featured on this calendar as well, but it was just a huge, like, Kimia Parvizimotlagh: female focus on that calendar specifically, and we were wondering, like, was there anything behind that, or was there… Mike Dunne: Yes, there was.

00:43:16.720 - 00:43:40.570

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay. Mike Dunne: That's good you said that. Mike Dunne: I remember, Michael Douglas was interviewed, and he was going to go to college in California. Mike Dunne: And they said, well, how come you picked, I forgot, University of Southern California, right? So how come you picked them? He said, because there was a female on the cover, and she was gorgeous. And I went...

00:43:40.810 - 00:44:04.480

Mike Dunne: Whoa, wait a minute, so the guys don't care about the guys on covers, they want to look at the girls on covers. So if they see women going to Towson University. Mike Dunne: We'll get more Mike Dunne: interest if we had a female on the cover. So that was just… We tried… We did it, it worked, but then, you know, then we kind of went back to normal again. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay.

00:44:04.480 - 00:44:20.420

Mike Dunne: But it worked! We drew a lot of males. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So... Mike Dunne: White and black, you know? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: It was more so a recruitment effort, more than… Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, we were wondering, that calendar just stood out to us, so…

00:44:20.420 - 00:44:31.220

Mike Dunne: Was the calendar on the cover? Was there a photograph? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: It was, like... It was multiple, like, illustrations. Mike Dunne: Well, yeah, I did the illustrations. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay.

00:44:31.220 - 00:44:41.420

Mike Dunne: Yeah, they're all my illustrations. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Wow. Mike Dunne: I'm looking through it right now. Mike Dunne: And I'm trying to see if there's a cover of...

00:44:41.940 - 00:44:56.410

Mike Dunne: And you said… Was this part on my Mike Dunne: art that I sent you guys? Juno Wilson: It was part of the materials that you sent to us, yes. Mike Dunne: Okay, okay. And the drawing you were talking about, right? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah.

00:44:56.700 - 00:45:38.350

Mike Dunne: Okay… Yeah, now you gotta remember, we had a limited amount of… Mike Dunne: stuff that we could tip right away, and that's why we stuck to a lot of illustrations and photographs. And photographs were hard to get. Mike Dunne: So, if you're talking about you needed photographs of, say, minorities, we'd have to go out there and get photographs, develop them, but then it might not be good for that one particular publication. Mike Dunne: So it's gotta be, it's gotta be tough. And what, you know, not saying anything negative about, what we tried to do, but when we were in a sporting event, for example, and we took a photograph of the stands.

00:45:38.750 - 00:46:24.810

Mike Dunne: There might not be any minorities with all the whites, or it might be all blacks and no whites. I couldn't get them to mix up, right? So we just used what we had available, and what we could take photographs of. And so, it was tough back there. I think it's a lot easier now. Mike Dunne: You know, I know it is, I know it is. But, you know, it was tough back there. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, so I know you're reflecting back to, like, the stadium, and the stands, and the fans. Yeah. Do you think as athletics grew, and Kimia Parvizimotlagh: players like Wendell Thomas or whoever else started coming to Towson, do you think the students in the stands mixed too, or did it stay kind of like the same?

00:46:24.810 - 00:46:44.230

Mike Dunne: I think they did. I think they did, and we always… Okay. Mike Dunne: We tried, and I think we were successful, Mike Dunne: to make sure we had a minority represented Mike Dunne: in all the publications that we did.

00:46:44.760 - 00:47:10.040

Mike Dunne: Now, it might not have been a cover, but they were always a minority representation in all the publications. We were told, had to have it. Mike Dunne: I didn't want to have a publication where it looked all female, all male, all black. It had to be a mix. So it would not be together, but they were in the publication. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Who was the person behind that, like, idea of having to have it? Like, was it… Mike Dunne: Me.

00:47:10.270 - 00:47:19.980

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: It was you? Mike Dunne: Yep. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay. Mike Dunne: Yep, because that's what I was told to do to bring in minority students.

00:47:20.330 - 00:48:03.320

Mike Dunne: And that was what… Well, I shouldn't say me, I'm sorry. It was probably… Mike Dunne: I would say it was one of the presidents, I don't know if it was Hoke or Jim Fisher, that was trying to bring in more minorities. And since Hoke was there for 30 years, it was probably him, okay? And he would want more minorities. But it could have been my boss, too, you know? I was saying, hey, we gotta have Mike Dunne: mixture on these covers. But I was the one that actually would say, no, I gotta have it in there. Even if I wasn't doing it, one of my designers was doing it, we had to make sure that we had representation. Mike Dunne: You know?

00:48:03.770 - 00:48:23.060

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: It was more so for recruitment over anything else? Mike Dunne: No. No, it was everything. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Oh, it was everything. Mike Dunne: It was posters, it was, you know, let's say if there was a band… In fact, I'm looking at it, there's one that was a

00:48:23.220 - 00:48:45.550

Mike Dunne: theater production. Mike Dunne: And it was an illustration I did Mike Dunne: and it was all females, but there was a Black female in that. Mike Dunne: And there's also one that I did where the one girl had an afro, which is beautiful. And I did that, and that was for a poster we did years back. And because we were representing the Afro… I don't know if it was

00:48:47.350 - 00:49:05.580

Mike Dunne: African American Studies, or something like that, and that was the cover for that. But no, no, it wasn't something that Mike Dunne: we just threw together, you know? It's buckling through all that stuff. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay. Mike Dunne: I wish I could find that calendar. You said it was the cover of a calendar?

00:49:05.900 - 00:49:28.150

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: It was the 1981-1982 university calendar. Mike Dunne: That's the one we gave out to Mike Dunne: mostly recruiters and stuff like that, and it had a lot of faculty. We were in it, my wife and I. Mike Dunne: But, anyway, I'm gonna…

00:49:28.420 - 00:49:59.830

Mike Dunne: I can't find it, but I will. But no, it was interesting. But again, you're looking at stuff that we did, and I think Mike Dunne: you would be happy for what we did it for. I mean, we just, we really pushed, and I think we got the minority up. Mike Dunne: We did the same thing when we actually went out and requested printing. Mike Dunne: We had to get... 11% of the bids had to go out to a minority printer.

00:50:00.800 - 00:50:35.610

Mike Dunne: And that's what we did. That's just one of the norms we had. But I wanted… You were going to ask me some more questions. I wanted to get away from that and talk about why Mike Dunne: Towson was so good. Mike Dunne: We had a community there that was like a family. Mike Dunne: And we had the events that we had that went on. And one of the things that really stood out was that we would have stuff in the Fine Arts Building, but there was one, the Baltimore Film Festival

00:50:35.980 - 00:51:08.380

Mike Dunne: we had here, and that was for the community. When we ended up building the Towson center, Fine Arts Towson Mike Dunne: Center, the logo, the star, Mike Dunne: okay, that you probably saw, and you look at the different people that came, and it wasn't just for the students, but it was for the community that showed up. The students actually had a speaker series. Mike Dunne: And they would have people come in. Woodward and Bernstein, I don't know if you knew them.

00:51:08.760 - 00:51:27.760

Mike Dunne: They were the ones that toppled Nixon. Mike Dunne: They came in and actually squealed on Nixon. That's how Nixon ended up leaving. Well, they were Mike Dunne: part of our group, too, who came in. We had... Mike Dunne: Now, I'll probably name some actors that you've probably never heard of before. Bob Hope.

00:51:27.870 - 00:51:39.230

Mike Dunne: You ever hear of Bob Hope? Mike Dunne: Oh, you did? Mike Dunne: World War II, he was always visiting, Bob Hope was one. Red Skelton. Mike Dunne: Never heard of him.

00:51:39.480 - 00:52:14.570

Mike Dunne: But Red Skelton just showed up, and he was… I drove him around in a car, and he was picking up all these newspapers so he could perform. And just stuff like that. We had horses Mike Dunne: parading up and down Mike Dunne: the Marina, Towson Center. We had all these events. In fact, if I can remember correctly, I think the Baltimore County Executive, Ted Benatoulis, really pushed Mike Dunne: hard to have that called the Towson Center, because the Civic Center was downtown. He wanted something like the Civic Center at Towson.

00:52:14.720 - 00:52:53.240

Mike Dunne: And that went on for years, then it kind of, like, fizzled out. Now they got this huge place there now, which is amazing. But we had also Auburn house, which is Mike Dunne: one of the oldest houses in Maryland, and we used to have events there all the time. In fact, Ronald Reagan was there one time for students. But we used to have events there for children. They'd come for Mike Dunne: Easter and, you know, Halloween, and all that kind of… They used to have weddings there. So, Towson was actually a community university. Mike Dunne: Not just a student

00:52:53.500 - 00:53:19.380

Mike Dunne: educational university. Mike Dunne: And that's what I liked about it. I mean, it wasn't just inside the student saying, we want this, we're going to do this, we'll do all that. It was like, hey, why don't we get the Mike Dunne: rest of the community around the university to get involved. And that's how you really make a university, I think. Mike Dunne: You know, I don't know how you guys think. Do you have… Do they have events like that now?

00:53:20.820 - 00:53:42.150

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, I know you mentioned Auburn House. Mike Dunne: Yes. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: I… They still have Kimia Parvizimotlagh: events in there. I know the History Honor Society, actually, since we're in history class, they have conducted some things in there. Outside of Auburn House, yeah, stuff goes on on campus. I will say,

00:53:42.300 - 00:54:12.310

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: it is kind of Kimia Parvizimotlagh: foreign to me, thinking of the community being as active on campus, because I see a lot more, like, student, like, in-house, like, Kimia Parvizimotlagh: collaboration going on. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: I remember a few years ago, we had a really large donor, displayed on our website. It was, like, the largest contribution in history. That was, like, outside of campus, but most of the things we

00:54:12.350 - 00:54:36.240

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: kind of have going on are in-house, no? Usually. Right? So, yeah. Mike Dunne: Yeah, but… Juno Wilson: Or Juno Wilson: events as a whole, mainly pertaining to outside events, outside universities history, but it's related to it. Were there moments when national events or local Baltimore issues directly shape the tone or content of your department's work?

00:54:37.560 - 00:55:10.620

Mike Dunne: Wow, that's a good question. I don't know if I have an answer on that. You mean outside society changing Mike Dunne: what the university was doing, what they… How they would change their attitude, or… What do you mean by that? Juno Wilson: How did that change, like, any events, like natural events, let's say a huge political thing, or maybe issues that were in Baltimore City or Baltimore County as a whole? Juno Wilson: Did news like that or issues change the tone or content, or how did that affect the department as a whole?

00:55:10.900 - 00:55:31.490

Mike Dunne: I don't think it… Kimia Parvizimotlagh: And even, like, if we're thinking, like, on the broader scale, if politics were adapting, like, if there was a new presidency, a new administration, do you remember any changes reflecting, like. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: grand scheme of, like, let's say the United States versus Towson's interpretation? Mike Dunne: Nope. Nope.

00:55:31.490 - 00:56:08.870

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: No? Mike Dunne: Oh, no, not at all, not at all. Now, I'm in administration, so, okay, so if you asked a faculty member, they might have a different attitude, or not, I shouldn't say attitude. They might have a different opinion, but Richard Vatz, Mike Dunne: who is retired, okay? He is, I think, a good, very good friend of mine. Mike Dunne: He can tell you a lot about the faculty, and politically what they did, and what they liked, and what involvement they had. He actually taught, I think, political science.

00:56:08.890 - 00:56:48.780

Mike Dunne: So, he's really good. He retired, but you can still get in touch with him. I see him on Facebook, but I'm sure if you check with alumni, or faculty, and they can get you his Mike Dunne: Facebook, or cell phone number, or whatever, and he's good. I mean, he'll sit… He's better than me in talking. But... Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, without the lens of a political scientist, though, Kimia Parvizimotlagh: do you recall any, like, any national events, or any local Baltimore, or even just Towson-related things that were…

00:56:50.070 - 00:57:07.480

Mike Dunne: No, I wish I could. No. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Ours was just, you know. Mike Dunne: It was fun. We just had a great time. But Mike Dunne: we had politicians that were active, at Towson, graduated from Towson.

00:57:07.670 - 00:57:37.500

Mike Dunne: But, no, I don't think anybody really came in to try to change Towson or any event Mike Dunne: that happened changed Towson. Now, it might have been… Mike Dunne: But again, see, I don't know. I wasn't involved in the student activity stuff. So, it might have been something happening, and the students got involved in, faculty could have gotten involved in it, I don't know, but not the administration. Mike Dunne: But it's interesting.

00:57:37.670 - 00:58:00.670

Mike Dunne: We have some good governors, though. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Let me use an example. For example, like, on the broader scale, universities found student reactions to, let's say, what happened at Kent State, right? Juno Wilson: Yeah, the Kent State Massacre, the Vietnam War. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Vietnam, Kent State Massacre. You really don't remember anything like that happening? Mike Dunne: I told you about the protests. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah.

00:58:00.670 - 00:58:19.550

Mike Dunne: They protested in Vietnam. Yeah. They came down, and it was… They were... But Penn State… I got there in '71. Penn State was Mike Dunne: before that. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah. Mike Dunne: They were protesting that, and there was a faculty member that was involved. They had actually, my God, they took over two buildings.

00:58:19.620 - 00:59:04.750

Mike Dunne: Different time periods, but they took over two buildings, and they also did... They had a lecture in the lecture hall, but yeah, they were active. The students were active because of the Vietnam War, because of Kent State. They got involved in it. But again, it's... Mike Dunne: I'm trying to think if there was anything else. There were other protests, but it wasn't because of that, it was mainly because of what a faculty member decided to do, and they didn't like it, and they protested it, but it lasted one day, and then it ended. There was, I think, when I left, there was something going on where they ended up having Mike Dunne: a wall that you can go to, and write stuff on the wall. Mike Dunne: And I…

00:59:04.750 - 00:59:15.190

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Oh, the, the chalk, the chalkboards? Mike Dunne: Yes, yes, yes. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yep, we still have those in Freedom Square, I believe. Mike Dunne: Yeah, that was after my time, you know?

00:59:15.470 - 00:59:36.070

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Were those walls put up as a way for students to talk to each other, as, like… Mike Dunne: Yeah, communicate. To express themselves. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay, but before those existed, do you think it was Kimia Parvizimotlagh: the student newspapers, or student organizations? That's who was doing the communicating?

00:59:36.070 - 01:00:12.430

Mike Dunne: Yep, yep. The newspaper was good. Now, it was interesting because David Nevins, who is in the photograph when Mike Dunne: it became Towson University, or Towson State University. There was a young lady, a young man there, and David Nevins was the president of the student union, and then Mike Dunne: one young girl, she ended up going to the House of Delegates. I can't even think of her name, but she was, like, the vice president, and they were very active with Mike Dunne: the administration

01:00:12.860 - 01:00:46.830

Mike Dunne: higher-ups, the president and the vice presidents. So, they were pretty well connected, so it was kind of interesting. Mike Dunne: That is… Juno Wilson: For changes within Towson University's context, when Robert Caret became president, computers and digital technology became more prominent on campus. How did that shift in technology change on how you or the department approach design, communication, or collaboration? Mike Dunne: Well, it's interesting you said that. Now, that was done before he became president, okay?

01:00:47.070 - 01:01:14.980

Mike Dunne: That was when he was actually working here as assistant to the president. Mike Dunne: And so, the thing is that when he put that together, computers, we didn't know what the heck we were doing. I'm an old guy, cut and paste. And I remember, I had... And we didn't have, Mike Dunne: what do you call it? Websites? We didn't have any of that stuff. Nothing. Mike Dunne: And so I was going to conferences after conferences, trying to figure out what to do.

01:01:15.240 - 01:01:57.000

Mike Dunne: And we were going to do a website. It was interesting because the one assistant of mine went with me, and I wanted to set up a website, but Mike Dunne: they had a committee set up, and it was 2 years in the making to do a website. We could do it in 5 minutes. What are you talking about? So they took her and put her in another department, and they ended up doing a website. So we had no control over it. But now we do. Not me. Design and Publication does now. Mike Dunne: You know, but anyway, that's another story. That's the political end of it. Mike Dunne: One's pulling this way, and it's pulling this way, trying to do something, and so that's how they got the website going. And then another time I had, I remember we had

01:01:57.050 - 01:02:37.630

Mike Dunne: I wanted Macintosh. So I went, I went to Bob Caret, I said, I can't have these PCs, man, they don't work for me, I need a Macintosh, He goes, no problem. So I was able to get Macintosh for all my employees, and we had to have storage rooms, so it wasn't the cloud. Mike Dunne: We ended up having this machine that would store everything. And so we'd actually store everything with the machine. And that Mike Dunne: also made us put together a form that we had to put together with a number so we could find this a year later when we had to go back and make changes. So it got really complicated. It was interesting Mike Dunne: because when I first started doing it

01:02:37.880 - 01:03:06.630

Mike Dunne: I got a computer, and I'm going, I didn't know what I was doing. Mike Dunne: At one point, I deleted everything from the computer, and the one woman I was talking about, my assistant came in, she goes, oh my god, you deleted everything! It just kept on saying, do you want to delete? I said, yes, yes, yes! It was gone. So we had to send it away and have it all Mike Dunne: put back in again, and she told me to never Mike Dunne: push yes. It's no. So anyway,

01:03:06.630 - 01:04:00.590

Mike Dunne: we got the Macintoshes, I got them in, I didn't know how to use them. I'm thinking, what am I going to do now? So I hired a student who was taking computer courses in graphic design. I hired her as a student intern, and she basically taught me how to use the computer. Mike Dunne: And then I got hooked on it. I do everything. I got two huge computers sitting here in my office, and I've been doing designs with the computer ever since. I think if you look, though, at my designs, most of those were done Mike Dunne: prior to computers, okay? All the artwork on the tiger and all that stuff was prior to computers. There was a couple of them, the magazines, they were all prior to computers. Mike Dunne: Once the computers came in, I think a lot of my designers were doing it at that time, but you look at what they're doing now, it's amazing. Absolutely amazing,

01:04:00.620 - 01:04:36.360

Mike Dunne: you know, and that's, again, Rick Pallansch. He took that over, and he's excellent with computers. Mike Dunne: But again, yes, that was something that we had to change, and it was really difficult at first, but I think everybody jumped in, and they made the change. Mike Dunne: The top part of that, training the secretaries, Mike Dunne: okay, and the faculty, and, you know, anybody that had to use a computer. Secretaries, they weren't called… Now they changed it, they're not called secretaries, administrative assistants, but they had to type the letters in, right?

01:04:36.570 - 01:05:11.760

Mike Dunne: And they had to know how to use a computer. Mike Dunne: And then we had to show them how they had to use a particular typeface, and what the logo looked like, where it went, all that kind of stuff. So it was like a training where we'd Mike Dunne: have them in so we could show them what to do. So it was interesting, but I think it was one of those things I look back at and say, oh my god, this is amazing that I survived it, you know? Because it was like, oh my god, it was like… Mike Dunne: I don't know how you can describe something like that.

01:05:11.920 - 01:05:39.400

Mike Dunne: I mean, I remember talking to somebody about what I used to do, cut and paste and all that. Mike Dunne: My wife came up and said, don't tell her that stuff. They don't want to hear about those old days. And the girl turned to her and says, oh, I'd love to hear about the archaic type Mike Dunne: stuff that they did back then. I went, what? You know, but that's it, you know? It's changed, and it's amazing now. The AI is, like, Mike Dunne: just amazing, you know.

01:05:39.840 - 01:05:50.210

Mike Dunne: So, we're doing lot more... Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, when Caret introduced the computers, was he a younger man? Mike Dunne: Yes. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: He wasn't president yet, right?

01:05:50.210 - 01:06:19.960

Mike Dunne: No, no, he was a faculty member, and I can't remember what department he worked for. You can look it up, but he was a faculty. Mike Dunne: And he somehow talked to Hoke and said, we need computers, everybody's getting computers, and Hoke said, okay, come on over, so he had him reporting to him, and Bob Caret Mike Dunne: ordered all the computers, got them all set up in different departments, and so he did the whole nine yards. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Oh.

01:06:20.370 - 01:06:53.100

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: And then, do you remember the student reaction to the technology, or how people took it? Mike Dunne: I think that, well, the students, you gotta remember, the students are there to learn. Mike Dunne: So, when they came in, and computers were there, they loved it, Mike Dunne: because they're learning something, a new technology. So, it's like driving a car. You don't know how to drive a car until you're 16. So, I mean, cars change so much that when you get in a car when you were 16, I mean, it wasn't gear shift, it was automatic.

01:06:53.590 - 01:07:14.720

Mike Dunne: So, that changed, and that's just normal for you guys when you go to school, you know? I mean, you go in, you walk in, there's a computer. Okay. Mike Dunne: Big deal, you know? Mike Dunne: My son and my daughter didn't have computers back when they were… Mike Dunne: But that's when it just started breaking up, and that was in the… God, that was in the 80s, I think,

01:07:15.020 - 01:07:55.750

Mike Dunne: when they were going to school. But, you know, it depends, but it's something that people learn, and they learn fast. The young kids, my granddaughter's telling me stuff I didn't know I could do on the phone, okay? So it's just… It's in your head. You go in, you learn it. But it was a big change. I loved it. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: With student interpretation in mind, we have another question. Juno Wilson: For the last two questions, how did you gauge how students within a broader Baltimore community perceived Towson's image during your years there? Did feedback ever shape your approach? Mike Dunne: You mean the students that were from Baltimore? Juno Wilson: Students or the broader Baltimore community.

01:07:56.870 - 01:08:27.250

Mike Dunne: I don't understand that. So, okay, the community, how they viewed Towson? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: How they viewed it, did the feedback they give about the university ever shape how you did your work? Mike Dunne: I think they liked it. Mike Dunne: Because of what was going on in the communities, and they would come to Towson. We got a lot of locals that would come in because their brothers and sisters went there, and because we had computers that were great.

01:08:27.250 - 01:09:00.560

Mike Dunne: You know, because we had a fine arts department that was fantastic. We had a nursing program that was number one Mike Dunne: next to University of Maryland, and I was there when they had the first nursing graduate, Mike Dunne: which is great. We had occupational therapy, which was new at the time, so there was a lot of stuff that was happening at Towson University back in my time, and later, that I think students came to it because Mike Dunne: it was inexpensive.

01:09:01.030 - 01:09:20.050

Mike Dunne: They could commute if they wanted to. Mike Dunne: And they had whatever they needed. It was right there. I mean, Mike Dunne: the different programs they had, the business department, oh my god, they started that, I remember. And they just went Mike Dunne: berserk. That was full.

01:09:20.170 - 01:09:55.490

Mike Dunne: The nursing program was full. It was hard to get into both of those programs. I don't know what it's like now, but they couldn't… You couldn't get in a nursing program. You had to wait 2 or 3 years to get into it. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: It's still pretty competitive. Mike Dunne: Is it really? See what I mean? Yeah, so it's like, it's amazing, what happens. I remember we had a consultant come in one time, and he was trying to get… We had all the departments there, and he was talking about business department and nursing program. We're gonna increase this, we can bring students in, and both of them looked at him. Mike Dunne: And got up, walked out. The guy looked at me, he goes.

01:09:55.490 - 01:10:21.500

Mike Dunne: Why'd they do that? It's because they're booked, they can't get any more people in there, so they don't need that kind of, you know, problem. But anyway, that's what happens. Towson Mike Dunne: was excellent. They were number two behind University of Maryland. Now it's probably changed a little bit. The only reason they were number two behind Mike Dunne: University of Maryland is because they're not a research institution, Mike Dunne: okay? They're an academic institution.

01:10:21.810 - 01:10:46.040

Mike Dunne: And that's what is primary for Towson, it's always been that way. Hopefully, it always stays that way. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, was it… It was student interest, public interest, and, like, Kimia Parvizimotlagh: things that were sensationalized that were being placed moreso Kimia Parvizimotlagh: in, like, the image of Towson as these programs were growing, and…

01:10:46.920 - 01:11:39.550

Mike Dunne: I think it was that. I think it was because of the people that were there. Students, okay, that were there. There were friends that went with, you know, went there, and their friends went there. Even now, when I talk to somebody, it's, oh, my daughter graduated from Towson. I think it was because, again, the, the amount of money Mike Dunne: that you had to pay at Towson. It was a lot less than Mike Dunne: all the other institutions in Maryland, I think. I'm guessing. I wish I could erase that, but somebody just commented on that. I don't know what he said. But if you go to Loyola, or Hopkins, or Mike Dunne: even UMBC, I think they're more expensive than Towson. So, it's cheaper, but I think it's better than the rest of the institutions.

01:11:39.920 - 01:11:54.540

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So would you say it was inclusivity or affordability? Mike Dunne: Both. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay. Did you ever find one taking, like, a leap Kimia Parvizimotlagh: in front of the other, or no?

01:11:54.540 - 01:12:23.360

Mike Dunne: No. No, it's hard to say. I mean, both of them, you know, it depends on who you are and what you can afford. But it also… Mike Dunne: The majors that you want are here… I'm saying are here, I'm gone now. Are there at Towson University. Mike Dunne: I mean, you've got everything except for a research institution, you know? Mike Dunne: So, name something that you think would be interesting

01:12:23.670 - 01:12:41.160

Mike Dunne: to a person going... Why'd you go to Towson? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Why did I go to Towson? Is this a rhetorical question? Mike Dunne: Yes. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: If you actually want to know, it's because my parents said it was affordable compared to my other choice, so…

01:12:41.160 - 01:12:55.430

Mike Dunne: There you go, there you go. Now, your turn. Why'd you go to Towson? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: It was close by. Mike Dunne: There you go. See what I mean? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, proximity, affordability, those same things do relate, but… So…

01:12:55.430 - 01:13:28.210

Mike Dunne: But Mike Dunne: it still has some of the best programs you can… Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yes. So, your career at Towson spanned a great amount of time. I know in the 70s, when you first came, it was a matter of bringing more male students to campus. Yes, multicultural identities, yes. But towards 2006, Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Do you think the conversation shifted at all, or was it more bring males in, or do you remember anything like that?

01:13:28.340 - 01:14:18.490

Mike Dunne: 2006, I think we were pretty well equalized on who was coming in, so I think… I don't want to brag, I think we met our goal. I think that's what we wanted, you know? I mean, culturally, it's mixed. Mike Dunne: I mean, it's not... Religious-wise, there's so many different religions there. We have a great program for international students. I mean, it's just amazing stuff that they're doing now. Mike Dunne: You know, I mean, I remember, we had the Russians come over and play tennis, and two-thirds of the Russians ended up Mike Dunne: living and trying to… And snuck out and stayed in Maryland because they didn't want to go back to Russia. And then stuff like that used to happen. And it's like, wow, this is amazing. Then, but

01:14:19.340 - 01:14:57.830

Mike Dunne: Towson University was, like I said, it was like, to me, I'm close by, my kids didn't go there, neither one of them went there, Mike Dunne: even though it was cheap. We tried to poke them into it. We wanted to buy him a car, and we told him, don't worry about it, because it was free. Mike Dunne: But they both went away to college, and I didn't go there. My wife did, okay, but I didn't go there. I went to MICA, Maryland Institute College of Art, but that became Mike Dunne: my life. 35 years. Loved it. My wife was 40 years. Everything we did around it was Towson University. I mean, we were there all the time.

01:14:58.400 - 01:15:33.280

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah. So, thinking between… Even from when your wife was working at Towson until when you first started, and to your retirement. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: That's kind of a great way for us to wrap up our interview with our last question, if that's okay? Juno Wilson: Yes, tracing back to our last question, looking back, how would you describe the transformation of Towson's identity from a teacher's college in the early 1970s to a comprehensive university by the time you retired in 2006? Mike Dunne: How do I describe it? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yes.

01:15:33.280 - 01:15:51.090

Mike Dunne: Unbelievable. Mike Dunne: I mean, there's something you have to experience, you have to be there and experience it. Mike Dunne: Because we're talking about a small institution That was, like… Mike Dunne: Really, back then, colleges… A lot of people didn't go to college,

01:15:51.200 - 01:16:26.920

Mike Dunne: okay? And back then, you had really a small institution that came from, what's it, 1866, started Mike Dunne: downtown, and then it moved Mike Dunne: to where it is now, I forgot what year it was, but it was still a small institution, and everybody lived there. It wasn't a commuter school. Mike Dunne: And everybody lived there. Now, all of a sudden, you got this small little institution, and it started getting bigger and bigger and bigger, until it exploded into what it is now, which I think is one of the best institutions in Maryland.

01:16:27.090 - 01:16:42.620

Mike Dunne: Because of what they can offer. Mike Dunne: Salary-wise, I mean, tuition-wise, it's cheaper, and they have everything, Mike Dunne: and some things that other institutions don't have Mike Dunne: that they're training and teaching.

01:16:43.820 - 01:17:00.750

Mike Dunne: And that's… To me, it was amazing just being part of all that. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: And then, with the image in mind, when you first started versus when you retired, even reflecting on it today. [inaudible] Kimia Parvizimotlagh: What would you say about that?

01:17:01.140 - 01:17:08.820

Mike Dunne: Something happened here. I'm sorry. I missed you. Are you still there? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Hello? What? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah, we're still here. Mike Dunne: Oh, okay.

01:17:08.820 - 01:17:13.480

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, just... Mike Dunne: Somebody's trying to get in touch with me. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Oh. Mike Dunne: I'm sorry.

01:17:13.480 - 01:17:26.290

Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So… Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, from the 70s to 2006 to today, with the image in mind, I know we're talking about the transformation of Towson. Mike Dunne: Yeah. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Do you have any comments on that?

01:17:28.580 - 01:18:05.080

Mike Dunne: I don't understand what you're talking about. Do I have a comment on the image? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: So, I recall we were discussing how difficult it was, capturing, let's say, diversity on campus, things like that. From when you first started until your retirement, and then today, how would you say Towson changed that way? Mike Dunne: I think it's changed a lot. I think it's kind of relaxed a little bit now, because it's done. I think when I was there, it was like a challenge. Mike Dunne: And, it was something that wasn't just me, but it was the entire

01:18:05.100 - 01:18:43.130

Mike Dunne: group of people that wanted to make that change, from the president on down to, you know, all the employees. Now, we're administration, okay? We weren't faculty, so there's a big difference between administration and faculty. And we used to butt heads a lot, too, which is fine. Mike Dunne: That's all institutions do, you know? But as somebody that's part of an institution that Mike Dunne: is trying to make it better, but not trying to interfere with the faculty and what they want to do, I think we did a great job. Mike Dunne: Yeah.

01:18:43.580 - 01:18:54.210

Mike Dunne: I hope I did this right. Juno Wilson: Amazing. Mike Dunne: I'm sorry. My wife told me not to talk too much, so… Juno Wilson: Thank you for talking too much, we loved it.

01:18:54.210 - 01:19:33.990

Mike Dunne: I'm glad you do. I really enjoyed it. You know, I really did. Hopefully, you guys can keep this going on, Mike Dunne: you know? I mean, this kind of research, this kind of... This is going to be in our archives, it's going to be in there forever. You guys are going to have grandkids, great-grandkids, and this'll still be there. You understand what I mean? Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Yeah. Mike Dunne: You're gonna be there, you're gonna be there, everybody on here is gonna be there. And that's why, that's why... And just something I wanted to tell you before we leave, that's why I became an artist, a graphic designer, because my stuff will be there long after I'm gone.

01:19:34.310 - 01:19:57.040

Mike Dunne: And it'll still be there. Hopefully nobody Mike Dunne: destroys it. But that's something I wanted to do when I became an artist. I wanted to make sure I was here forever. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: No, we won't let them destroy it. We're gonna archive it. Mike Dunne: Okay. But I just found this, too. This is interesting. This is one of the pieces I did, and it's actually trying to raise money.

01:19:58.350 - 01:20:32.550

Mike Dunne: And it talks about all the different people, all the different programs that we have, and music, and everything else, and it's really interesting. Mike Dunne: Elementary school students, everything. So this is what Mike Dunne: I feel Towson University did. It wasn't just about individual students trying to get a degree, it was about communities, around the institution, their parents, Mike Dunne: the alumni, everybody's coming together, and that's what I think makes a great institution. Sorry I talked too much, okay?

01:20:32.920 - 01:21:07.430

Juno Wilson: To wrap everything up, thank you again for taking the time on this beautiful Saturday afternoon to talk with us today, and sharing Juno Wilson: Towson's history. Juno Wilson: Your perspective on how the university's image evolved over the decades is invaluable for understanding both the institution and the broader context of higher education during that period. Before we finish this oral history interview, is there anything we haven't asked you about that you think is important for future students or researchers to understand about your work, or Towson during those years? Mike Dunne: Well, all I wanted to do is, I was so happy you guys were doing this.

01:21:07.460 - 01:21:40.740

Mike Dunne: Because, again, I said in the beginning that the publications tell you everything, okay? So the publications that they're producing now is going to tell people in the future everything is happening now. So those things have to be preserved, and it's up to you guys to do it, okay? Mike Dunne: So the publications are there. This particular thing you're doing now, the Zoom, it's gotta be preserved. And you gotta do it with a lot more people. Richard Vatz, Rick Pallansch, you gotta hit all those people. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Awesome. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Excellent.

01:21:40.740 - 01:21:56.260

Mike Dunne: A man back there staring at me. Yeah, it's me. I was behind the camera the whole time. Mike Dunne: That's great, that's great, I appreciate it. Juno Wilson: Is there anything that we may not have touched base on? Like, anything we missed out? Any last-minute thoughts?

01:21:56.260 - 01:22:29.660

Mike Dunne: Of course you have, but I can't keep going on. Juno Wilson: Yeah. Mike Dunne: There's so much more, and I just could not keep going. I mean, it's just amazing the time I spent there. You're talking about 35 years. I can talk to you for 35 hours, you know? But… Juno Wilson: Okay, thank you. We greatly, greatly appreciate your participation in the Oral History Project. Please reach out with any questions. We will absolutely share our final product with you in due time. We really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

01:22:29.660 - 01:22:35.120

Mike Dunne: I appreciate you guys doing this. Kimia Parvizimotlagh: It was a pleasure, thank you. Mike Dunne: He's gonna preserve it, you know? Koot, Christian: Thank you, Mike.

01:22:35.410 - 01:22:43.050

Mike Dunne: Okay. Koot, Christian: Thank you, Mike, and I'll keep going. Mike Dunne: What's that? Koot, Christian: I promise we'll preserve it, and I promise we'll keep going with more.

01:22:43.720 - 01:23:01.260

Mike Dunne: Yep, and make sure you get some donations. Go to the alumni, go to the... Koot, Christian: We're working on that, I promise. Mike Dunne: Okay, I don't know who the alumni director is now, but I tell you what, go to the alumni itself, one of the events, and look up Sally Souris. Koot, Christian: Okay, we do, and we've gotten a Foundation account now that's...

01:23:01.260 - 01:23:06.040

Mike Dunne: Oh! Koot, Christian: For donations, and we're ready to go. Mike Dunne: Okay, sounds good. Koot, Christian: Okay.

01:23:06.040 - 01:23:10.880

Mike Dunne: Appreciate it, thank you. Koot, Christian: Thank you all! Kimia Parvizimotlagh: Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mike Dunne: Bye.