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Reyes, Leah: Okay, we're… Hi, Leah, are you ready to start? Leah Packard: Yes, go ahead. Reyes, Leah: Okay, so first question, how are you doing today? Leah Packard: I'm well, thank you.

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Reyes, Leah: So, Reyes, Leah: from what I've seen from the Towerlights, I saw that you started in 71, 72, but officially, when did you get to Towson State College? Leah Packard: Well, that would be the fall Leah Packard: of 1970.

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Reyes, Leah: Oh, okay. Got it. Leah Packard: So that was my freshman year. Reyes, Leah: What did you major in? Leah Packard: I majored in psychology, specifically clinical psychology.

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Leah Packard: There was a special program here I got into later. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: And so it was an emphasis upon clinical study. Reyes, Leah: Got it. Were you a part of any other organizations on campus?

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Leah Packard: I was not. Nothing that I can remember, no. Reyes, Leah: Okay, no worries. Reyes, Leah: My next question, what was the general campus attitude towards birth control during your time at Towson? Leah Packard: That's hard for me to say.

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Leah Packard: I'm not sure I knew Leah Packard: anything about that until I started working Leah Packard: and doing counseling at the Women's Aid Society, Leah Packard: and

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Leah Packard: the clinic to which we were referring Leah Packard: the women was at Goucher, Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: and not here on campus.

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Leah Packard: And, well, Leah Packard: to tell you some scuttlebutt that I heard at that time, it was because the director of the medical facility here did not want Planned Parenthood on the campus. That clinic at Goucher was run by Planned Parenthood. Leah Packard: And honestly, I heard it was because he was Catholic and did not want Planned Parenthood Leah Packard: in his medical facility. I have no idea whether that was true or not. It's what I heard from the founders of the Women's Aid Society, who were upperclassmen.

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Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: And I've wondered all these years whether that was true or not. Leah Packard: I don't know. Reyes, Leah: Hmm, I have seen some writing about that that may confirm it.

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Leah Packard: Mm hm. Reyes, Leah: I'll have some names of the founding members from 70 to 71, and the 71 and 72 members, if you'd like me to recite them. Maybe it would help jog something. Leah Packard: Go ahead, because I really don't remember anybody else's name. Reyes, Leah: Got it. So we have David Cohen, Trisha Vermillion, or Patricia Vermillion, or Trish, I believe she went by, Richard Golden, Hollis Toal, Jo Matkins, who I believe was the founder, as well as Richard King.

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Leah Packard: Oh, well, now that's interesting, because, I know Trish Vermillion Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: from our time here, and she may have been the one who referred me to becoming a counselor at the Women's Aid Society, and I've seen her in subsequent years. She lived, or she did until 15 years ago, lived in Towson, and our kids went to summer camp together Leah Packard: and have crossed our paths before, but I did not remember until you mentioned her name that quite possibly she's the one who said, hey, would you like to join this organization?

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Leah Packard: And so that may very well have been my path into that. Reyes, Leah: Yes, she's... Leah Packard: Of course there were things on billboards around schools, you know, Reyes, Leah: Yeah.

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Leah Packard: and that could, that possibly was another way of doing it. But since you mentioned Trish's name, I had forgotten that she was in that group. Reyes, Leah: She was very vocal about it on campus. I've seen a lot of her excerpts in the Towerlights. Leah Packard: She would be. Yes, she would be. Reyes, Leah: And then for the 1971 and 1972 members, again, I have some repeats. I have Richard King, Trisha Vermillion, you, Lea Bogusko, David Cohen, Susan Rowe, Lindsay Schlottman, Hollis Toal, Chris Voelker, and David Zembower.

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Leah Packard: No, those other names don't ring a bell. Reyes, Leah: No worries. Reyes, Leah: Just to see if it would jog anything. Leah Packard: Yeah, no, I don't remember any of the other names, just Trish Vermillion.

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Reyes, Leah: No worries. So, my next question was, how did you find out about the Women's Aid Society? But you believe Reyes, Leah: through Trish Vermillion. Leah Packard: Yeah, it may very well have been, through Trish Vermillion. Leah Packard: Other than that, it would've been advertising on, you know, billboards saying that. Because I was a psychology major,

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Leah Packard: I thought it would be pertinent and in fact it did help me when I got into a special program here for clinical study by mentioning the fact that I was doing that and they seemed interested in that. And also the fact that I'd been a candy striper at St. Joseph's Hospital, Leah Packard: which is another helping profession, I guess. Reyes, Leah: Yeah. Interesting. So, what made you join? Leah Packard: I've just... I felt I had something to offer

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Leah Packard: in the way of information. I wanted to see what they were all about in terms of Leah Packard: how they were helping the women on campus. Leah Packard: And Leah Packard: I had actually done a great deal of reading about the topic, and after talking to some girlfriends, I felt I had some more knowledge than some of them did.

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Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: And that was true when I spoke to some of the young women who came in eventually. Reyes, Leah: Got it, so your role was, like, Reyes, Leah: adjacent to, kind of, a mental health counselor.

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Leah Packard: Well, I wouldn't say that so much, although I was certainly there to assist them with the problems they had. But we had the booklets. Do you have a copy of the booklets that we had then by any chance? Reyes, Leah: I unfortunately do not. Leah Packard: You know, a group... Leah Packard: A book was published called Our Bodies, Ourselves,

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Leah Packard: by a group of women, several of whom I believe were physicians, Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: about birth control and reproductive issues and women's health. I think that was in 1970. I might have still been in high school then. It was just, a paper… Not even a paperback, it was a newsprint Leah Packard: black and white that was put out. And then, I think, like three years later, maybe around 73, they did a better quality paperback, a larger size format that was more than just newsprint. Well, we had, I believe they were materials sponsored by them, booklets,

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Leah Packard: newsprint again, just black and white, covering the basics, just an outline of reproductive health care, women's health, different birth control techniques. Leah Packard: And that was, Leah Packard: you know, what we could provide for young women. And then, of course, the referral to Leah Packard: the clinic at Goucher, which I want to say it was only once a month, but

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Leah Packard: I'm not actually sure about that. And I think there was a shuttle from here Leah Packard: that they could take to get over to Goucher, and Goucher at that time was all women. Leah Packard: I don't believe they had gone co-ed yet and had men there. So that may be one reason that Planned Parenthood, you know, had their clinic there. Another one. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm.

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Leah Packard: So we had those booklets, and they were just newsprint. It wasn't particularly thick, maybe 20 pages or so. Leah Packard: And that was what we could, you know, give to the women who came in to discuss their problems and such. Reyes, Leah: Okay. Leah Packard: And I do remember the name of the doctor at Planned Parenthood, a woman doctor. Her name was Dr. Trimble.

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Reyes, Leah: Dr. Trimble, do you think you can… Leah Packard: Pardon me? Reyes, Leah: Do you think you can spell that? Leah Packard: I think it's T-R-I-M-B-L-E.

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Reyes, Leah: Got it. Thank you! So along with providing pamphlets to students, how else can you describe Reyes, Leah: your role in the Women's Aid Society? Leah Packard: Well, I never had a lot of meetings with all the other people. I don't remember that. They may have had a board of the upperclassmen who got together, and certainly there would have been financial issues. They were getting some money, I assumed, from the college. I don't know. Leah Packard: Um...

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Leah Packard: But I don't ever remember going to a meeting where anything like, how do we order the booklets we're paid for, or anything like that. I don't remember any of that discussions. Leah Packard: No, I wasn't involved in any of that. Reyes, Leah: So, when you went, just based off of what I've been reading, but please correct me if I'm wrong, from what I understand, the Women's Aid Society operated out of the rear entrance of Glen Esk. Leah Packard: That's right. Glen Esk has been torn down, I think, hasn't it, Glen Esk.

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Reyes, Leah: Yeah, I believe so. Leah Packard: Yep. Leah Packard: Oh. Leah Packard: I think your new healthcare building is

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Leah Packard: classes, right? Classroom has been built there, where it was. That's a shame. It was a lovely Victorian house, built in 1905. Leah Packard: And it was the Mental Health Counseling Center. There were two older women who were the secretaries there. They were so nice to us and so helpful with anything that we wanted. We were in the back in the old kitchen, Leah Packard: and that, as I said, that house was built in 1905. The old cast iron cook stove was still there, and that was the only desk we had Leah Packard: to which we could stack our little, you know, booklets that we were handing out, or if we needed to sit and write or anything. There was really nothing else there but a couple of chairs, and at one end of that long space, there was a small, modern kitchen.

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Leah Packard: And that was about it. And I remember that cast iron cook stove Leah Packard: 'cause it gave you a big surface on the top to lay out the things we had. Reyes, Leah: Hmm. Leah Packard: That was about it. It was very bare bones.

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Reyes, Leah: Yeah. So, your group operated out of there. So, I guess, what would it look like if a student was coming in Reyes, Leah: to get services from the Women's Aid Society? Leah Packard: I think that the time that we were there, whatever times I was there, or any other people working that shift, would have been Leah Packard: publicized somehow. And it was just a drop in essentially.

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Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: I don't remember anything about formal appointments or anything like that. Reyes, Leah: Yeah. Leah Packard: I think they would just come in through the front entrance and

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Leah Packard: ask to go to the Women's Aid Society. Reyes, Leah: Got it. So how can you describe the mission of the Women's Aid Society? Leah Packard: Well, for a lot of very nervous and upset young women Leah Packard: just becoming sexually active, there was a lot of hand-holding

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Leah Packard: because they felt something had happened, something had gone wrong, they were concerned about pregnancy. And a lot of them were Leah Packard: very upset when they came in, Leah Packard: crying, you know, anxious about what to do, what to do. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm.

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Leah Packard: So, the hand-holding, and then the education in terms of the booklets we could provide, and the referral Leah Packard: for the shuttle to to go to Goucher Leah Packard: would be, you know, foremost of what we were doing. Reyes, Leah: Oh, okay, so those three things were

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Reyes, Leah: kind of what happened during most visits. Leah Packard: And I have to say, of all the time I worked, it was all women. I don't ever remember Leah Packard: a man coming in, or a couple together. I don't remember ever a guy coming in with his girlfriend. It was always just the woman. Now, that's just for me. I don't know what happened, Leah Packard: you know, with the other counselors and such,

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Leah Packard: it was always a young woman coming in Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: for help. Reyes, Leah: Well, that's nice that you guys could provide those women help.

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Leah Packard: Oh, I think it was a good and quite a very basic and bare bones, Leah Packard: you know, Leah Packard: deal. It wasn't anything fancy. I think back years later, and I could think, wouldn't have been wonderful to have Leah Packard: physical models of the reproductive system of a woman or something there that we could really illustrate, even better than just handing them this booklet with the pictures, good as they are.

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Leah Packard: It was a shame we didn't have more. Reyes, Leah: Yes. Reyes, Leah: Yes, from what I understand, I believe some of the funding did come from SGA, Leah Packard: Mm hm.

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Reyes, Leah: but a very limited amount. Yeah. Reyes, Leah: But I was wondering if there were any faculty members that helped out with the Women's Aid Society? Leah Packard: If there were, I don't recall or didn't know about them. As I said, I was an underclassman, and it was the upperclassmen who were really in charge of this Reyes, Leah: Yeah, yeah.

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Leah Packard: and organized it. Reyes, Leah: So... Leah Packard: So I was just coming in. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm

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Leah Packard: When I initially came in, Leah Packard: they didn't immediately let me go into Leah Packard: having an assigned time or anything like that. I sort of had to prove to them Leah Packard: and I think they questioned me. I think I had a sort of a,

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Leah Packard: you know, testing on what I do. Leah Packard: It was very casual and brief but apparently I passed muster. Reyes, Leah: That's good. I saw that the hours were kind of limited, too, about, like, Reyes, Leah: 11 to 12, or 12 to 1:30.

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Leah Packard: Hmm. Leah Packard: No, I remember it being later in the day for me. Reyes, Leah: Really? Leah Packard: You know, but I don't...

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Leah Packard: I can't say exactly. I remember it being, like, after my other classes were over Reyes, Leah: Mmm. Leah Packard: and sort of later in the day. Reyes, Leah: Got it. This was just what was reported in the Towerlight. Interesting, they have more hours later.

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Reyes, Leah: So, you said you didn't really have, Reyes, Leah: like, an executive role, but what were some of the duties members, I guess the higher-up members of the Women's Reyes, Leah: Aid Society performed? Leah Packard: Well, as I said, they were the ones who procured the supplies.

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Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: And they must have made the arrangement Leah Packard: to have Glen Esk Leah Packard: space at a certain time, they would have done all that.

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Leah Packard: And it was all done before I ever had an interest in it. Reyes, Leah: Okay. Leah Packard: I imagine Trish Vermillion Leah Packard: was a resource for that, because she was probably in it. Sounds as if she was in it. I think she is a year older than I am. I'm not sure about that, but

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Leah Packard: if she was in it already, she would have known more about that than I did. Leah Packard: And I was always there by myself, as I remember. Leah Packard: I don't think I had that much interaction with Leah Packard: the people who were in the Women's Aid Society, you know, once I started doing the counseling at a certain time.

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Reyes, Leah: Mm hm, can you give me, like, Reyes, Leah: what was the effect that the Women's Aid Society had on campus? So there were all these Reyes, Leah: emotional women coming in, was there, Reyes, Leah: like, a more profound effect that

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Reyes, Leah: campus Reyes, Leah: obviously had given your services? Leah Packard: I can't honestly say I think so, no. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm.

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Leah Packard: No, I think it Leah Packard: may have been more private than that in those days. Leah Packard: Uh... Leah Packard: These young women may not have wanted their friends to know that they were even going there. I don't know. I never got any feedback

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Leah Packard: about that. I don't really remember Reyes, Leah: Yeah. Leah Packard: it having a huge impact. What would have had a great impact was if Towson had its own, you know, Leah Packard: clinic set up

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Leah Packard: and you didn't have to take a shuttle over to go over to another school. And I'd be interested in knowing when that did finally happen. Reyes, Leah: I saw… It did happen, I believe, in 72, the spring of 72? Leah Packard: Really, that early, I'm surprised. Reyes, Leah: It was in the health center

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Leah Packard: Yes. Reyes, Leah: and they started treating, Reyes, Leah: or, I guess, referring treatment for STDs, STIs, and testing for those. They were doing pregnancy tests as well as abortion referrals. Reyes, Leah: So at some point, it did happen at Towson.

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Reyes, Leah: I guess I also read in the Towerlights that the Women's Aid Society was heavily advocating for a birth control clinic to be on campus. Did you have any part of that? Leah Packard: I don't remember actually being involved in that. Maybe I was, but I just don't remember. Reyes, Leah: No worries. Did you hear anything about that? Leah Packard: Not specifically, no. But I'm not surprised, given that that was the interest, you know, and the common goal of all of us to do that. But as I told you earlier,

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Leah Packard: and then I got into this program with an emphasis upon clinical psychology. It was called a Bruner program Reyes, Leah: Okay. Leah Packard: and it was in conjunction with the Sheppard Pratt School of Allied Mental Health Services Reyes, Leah: Yes, in October...

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Leah Packard: education. Reyes, Leah: ...the program started. Leah Packard: And once I did that and got an internship there and had to go over there, I wasn't really on campus as much as I had been previously. I didn't have much free time anymore on campus. Hence, I only did that for a brief period of time. I don't even remember how long it was Reyes, Leah: Mm hm.

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Leah Packard: that I did it. Reyes, Leah: Got it. So you must have been on campus, more the fall of '71. Reyes, Leah: and I guess when the Shepherd Pratt Mental Health Program started was in October. Do you happen to remember when Reyes, Leah: Gloria Steinem lectured on campus? She was

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Reyes, Leah: a very big figure in the women's liberation movement. Leah Packard: No, I don't. I don't remember that. Reyes, Leah: No worries, I just... Leah Packard: Remember, I'm a commuter student. I did not live on campus.

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Reyes, Leah: Understood. Leah Packard: So I wasn't around all the time in the evenings to be able to go to things here Leah Packard: and such. Leah Packard: You know, I just commuted to the school.

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Reyes, Leah: Got it. Leah Packard: So I acknowledge I probably missed a lot of things Reyes, Leah: Mmm. Leah Packard: for that reason.

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Leah Packard: But Towson was a big commuter school. I mean, it still is. Reyes, Leah: Yeah, yeah. Leah Packard: It's… Reyes, Leah: So…

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Reyes, Leah: Do you have any recollection of the Women's Liberation Movement on campus? I have read that they did work a little bit with the Women's Aid Society, but correct me if I'm wrong. Leah Packard: I don't recall that. Leah Packard: I don't recall that. Reyes, Leah: No worries, that might have been earlier.

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Reyes, Leah: So what other difficulties did your group face? Leah Packard: Um... Reyes, Leah: You mentioned funding might have been one of them. Leah Packard: Well, as I said, I always thought it would be nice if we could have had some other supplies.

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Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: You know, educational supplies and such Leah Packard: to give out. Leah Packard: Or I don't remember having written materials from any other source than those newsprint little booklets, little pamphlets that we gave out. Maybe we did. I don't recall that.

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Leah Packard: We didn't have a bookshelf with a lot of books on or anything Leah Packard: that we could use. I don't remember that. Reyes, Leah: Yeah. Reyes, Leah: And so those pamphlets, just to clarify, they covered the reproductive functions. Did they cover contraceptive methods?

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Leah Packard: Oh, yeah, yeah. Reyes, Leah: Okay. Leah Packard: But nothing went too much into depth, as I remember. It was just an overview. Leah Packard: I know, as I said, it couldn't have been more than 20 pages at most, if that.

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Reyes, Leah: Wow. Leah Packard: So it was, you know, it was initial information, basic information, Leah Packard: and I think we certainly relied upon asking young women to go Leah Packard: to the clinic at Goucher

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Reyes, Leah: to get them. Leah Packard: And, you know, I was not only a member of the Women's Aid Society, I was a client who also took the shuttle and went to Leah Packard: Goucher. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm.

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Leah Packard: And I don't really remember the clinic there, what it was like or anything like that. Reyes, Leah: Yeah. Reyes, Leah: I saw that the Goucher Clinic also was like a pay-what-you-can Reyes, Leah: type of institution.

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Reyes, Leah: But what do you remember about the Goucher Planned Parenthood Clinic? Leah Packard: Very little. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: I remembered Dr. Trimble's name because it turned out she was a neighbor of my boyfriend's grandparents, my now husband of 51 years.

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Leah Packard: Dr. Trimble lived in Riderwood here in an old Victorian house. Right around the corner from his grandparents. So it was a small world connection there. And I went to her. I went to her. She was very nice and I liked her and, you know, it was very helpful to have that resource. Leah Packard: Very helpful. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Reyes, Leah: So do you ever remember

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Reyes, Leah: any other monetary constraints in relation to the Goucher Planned Parenthood clinic? Would your group Reyes, Leah: help with providing funds for those referrals? Leah Packard: I don't remember that being part of their mission, Reyes, Leah: although

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Leah Packard: there may be individual members who personally assisted Leah Packard: with something like that. I was never asked to contribute Leah Packard: or to help pay for somebody. No. Leah Packard: I don't remember, and I, as I said, I don't know anything about the funding of how the Women's Aid Society was set up initially.

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Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Okay. Leah Packard: Do you have a starting date for it? Do you have a date on which it was Leah Packard: started? Reyes, Leah: The Goucher Clinic, or the Women's Aid Society?

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Leah Packard: No, the Women's Aid Society on campus. Reyes, Leah: So, it was first mentioned in the Towerlight October 16th of 1970, but then it was reported to have Reyes, Leah: actually started in the spring of 1971 but I believe they were... They did actually start in the fall of 1970. Leah Packard: Okay, so it doesn't predate when I came here, like it wasn't there in the '60s, the late '60s on campus.

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Reyes, Leah: It was not, not that I know of. Leah Packard: Okay. Reyes, Leah: And I did see that in their earlier work, Reyes, Leah: I was wondering if there was any transportation involved for abortion referrals to New York?

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Leah Packard: Um, Leah Packard: I don't have any information on that. I don't recall. Reyes, Leah: No worries. Reyes, Leah: And are there any other names in relation to the Women's Aid Society that you'd like to mention for their impact?

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Leah Packard: Um... Leah Packard: In terms of what? Reyes, Leah: If there's... Leah Packard: On campus, do you mean, or...

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Leah Packard: No. Reyes, Leah: No worries. Leah Packard: I didn't even remember that Trish was in the organization until you mentioned it, you know. Reyes, Leah: Yeah.

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Leah Packard: Oh. Leah Packard: You do realize how long ago now all this was. Reyes, Leah: Yes. Leah Packard: I'm 73 years old. My memory is not what it used to be. And, you know,

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Leah Packard: that's for what it's worth. Reyes, Leah: No worries, I appreciate that. Well then, I guess, Reyes, Leah: for you, how has your involvement in the Women's Aid Society impacted your life moving forward? Leah Packard: Well, as I say, I was certainly helped by having that shuttle to go to Goucher at the time, and that was a blessing, and I imagine other women felt the same way, if it wasn't…

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Leah Packard: I mean, you have to realize the times. In the 60s, things were beginning to open up Leah Packard: nationally in terms of women getting help and assistance, and I think in Maryland abortion became legal in 68. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: If I remember correctly, in 1968.

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Leah Packard: But that doesn't mean suddenly it was there on every street corner and that every woman had all this information. It was like a slow rollout Leah Packard: of information Leah Packard: and people getting that information, you know, at the right time Leah Packard: and services being set up.

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Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: So it took a while. Leah Packard: It took a while. Our Bodies, Ourselves was quite innovative for its times. I mean, I remember friends of my mother's at that time talking about it and how great it was to have all this information gathered together, Leah Packard: because you can't realize how repressive it was in the past for women

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Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: to get that and how inaccessible to get that information. And most of the doctors in gynecology and obstetrics were men. Reyes, Leah: Yeah. Leah Packard: They weren't women.

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Leah Packard: They weren't women, so Leah Packard: it took a while for information to get out and Our Bodies, Ourselves was really innovative Reyes, Leah: Really. Leah Packard: and it had quite an impact on the national scene. Now, how soon that all filtered down to places like the rather provincial Towson State

00:28:33.720 - 00:28:50.270

Leah Packard: Teacher's College, you know. Leah Packard: It took a while. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: But something like that on the national level had a big impact. And then I imagine Gloria Steinem… I had not remembered that she'd come here. I imagine her coming here probably had a,

00:28:50.400 - 00:29:01.560

Leah Packard: you know, even more of a rallying effect. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: And so they were demanding to know, you know, why don't we have one on our campus if they have one over there? Reyes, Leah: Yeah.

00:29:01.560 - 00:29:26.450

Leah Packard: But maybe Planned Parenthood chose Goucher first because it was an exclusively women's college, and I can understand that at the time. Reyes, Leah: Interesting. So, do you think you can speak a little bit more to the attitude towards Reyes, Leah: the birth control and contraceptive abortion controversy on campus? Like, was it Reyes, Leah: more taboo to talk about among the students.

00:29:28.850 - 00:29:44.810

Leah Packard: I don't remember it being taboo. Leah Packard: But there may have been a great reticence there. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: And look, Maryland was found as a Catholic colony for religious freedom.

00:29:45.140 - 00:30:23.400

Leah Packard: And there were huge numbers of Catholics in Baltimore. I remember growing up… I grew up in Lutherville in Baltimore County, and not the city, but Leah Packard: there were, you know, Leah Packard: so many… There were just scores of Catholic churches, and, I just remember knowing so many Catholics growing up, and we all understand the attitude about the Catholic Church towards birth control. Leah Packard: I don't doubt that that might have had a repressive effect. You have all these young people growing up in Baltimore, I mean, coming here later, and they've got that in the back of their minds, that's…

00:30:23.860 - 00:30:41.820

Leah Packard: You know, they may have some hang-ups and not be so willing to openly discuss it. Leah Packard: And then there were other free types who were, you know. Leah Packard: We've gone through the sixties. It's the seventies, high living. Leah Packard: You know, free love and all that sort of thing. But that wasn't everybody.

00:30:41.830 - 00:31:04.500

Reyes, Leah: Got it. Reyes, Leah: 'Cause I understand at this time, Reyes, Leah: there were some more progressive attitudes. I was also reading in the Towerlights that there was a bigger, like, anti-Vietnam War [sentiment], and there were a lot of students protesting on campus and getting arrested. Reyes, Leah: So I was just wondering if, like, those

00:31:04.670 - 00:31:33.060

Reyes, Leah: two kind of, like, free thoughts made the campus atmosphere feel more progressive. Leah Packard: I don't think Towson was at the cutting edge of the Vietnam protests. There were things, I remember tables being set up in the quad and such, and, Leah Packard: you know, as far as that goes. But when you look at things that happened at other colleges at the time, Leah Packard: I don't think Towson was at the forefront of that.

00:31:33.560 - 00:31:42.720

Reyes, Leah: Got it. Leah Packard: At least I never had that feeling. Reyes, Leah: Okay. Leah Packard: There weren't masses of kids protesting like there were at other schools.

00:31:42.720 - 00:31:53.460

Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: It was a different atmosphere there. Leah Packard: And part of that is the nature of the college, having started as a state teacher's college, Reyes, Leah: Mm hm.

00:31:53.460 - 00:32:00.930

Leah Packard: I think. Reyes, Leah: Yep. Leah Packard: It took while for that to change. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Interesting.

00:32:01.600 - 00:32:25.820

Reyes, Leah: Okay, and so, were you in the club from 1973? Because I think Reyes, Leah: I gave you a wrong fact before. Towson had Reyes, Leah: their birth control clinic on campus in 1973 and they just Reyes, Leah: did, like, officially do referrals to the Goucher Clinic. So do you have any recollection of

00:32:27.290 - 00:32:36.680

Reyes, Leah: any sort of birth control clinic referrals at the Towson Reyes, Leah: health center? Leah Packard: No. Leah Packard: No.

00:32:38.390 - 00:33:08.330

Reyes, Leah: Just Goucher? Okay. Would you say that the Goucher Clinic was popular at the Towson campus? Leah Packard: Well, I remember, you know, a number of gals being on the shuttle when we went. Other than that, I don't know. Reyes, Leah: Did it feel like a resource that girls could freely use, or was it, like, again, a little taboo? Leah Packard: No, I think they availed themselves of it once once they found out about it,

00:33:08.590 - 00:33:27.220

Leah Packard: about, you know, that that they could go there, and that that resource was available to them. Reyes, Leah: So did people find out mainly through the Women's Aid Society or through other means? Leah Packard: I imagine word of mouth on campus, you know, woman to woman. Reyes, Leah: Yes.

00:33:27.220 - 00:33:35.490

Leah Packard: Discussion about it. You know, what to do, Leah Packard: where to go. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: I don't think the Women's Aid Society had much

00:33:36.380 - 00:33:47.770

Leah Packard: money to do a lot of advertising or anything. It was Leah Packard: pinning stuff up on a bulletin board at school. Reyes, Leah: Yeah, okay. Reyes, Leah: And

00:33:48.680 - 00:34:10.480

Reyes, Leah: I guess my last question. I have gotten a lot of information out of you. Thank you. Is there anything else you wanted to share that didn't come up in questioning? Leah Packard: Mmm. Leah Packard: I'd like to tell you one story Leah Packard: that does get into personal anatomy and body parts. If that's something that

00:34:10.640 - 00:34:23.240

Leah Packard: would be appropriate for this format. Reyes, Leah: No worries, go ahead. Leah Packard: I remember a young woman coming in. I recognized her from her being in one of my classes. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm.

00:34:23.830 - 00:34:45.290

Leah Packard: And she was very upset and crying and told me, I know I'm pregnant. I just know I'm pregnant. Leah Packard: And I said to her, well, you know, Leah Packard: how do you know? And she said, Leah Packard: well, of course, her period was late, but she said, but I put my finger up in my vagina, and I can feel a lump.

00:34:46.200 - 00:35:19.430

Leah Packard: And I said, oh? And she said, I just know that that's a fetus forming. Leah Packard: And she was crying, she was very upset, and I said, okay, let's calm down now and listen. Leah Packard: And I opened the page to the book that showed the picture of the woman's reproductive system. I said. Leah Packard: the vagina is like an accordion, and when it isn't being used to deliver a baby, it folds up to make it smaller. And that's what you feel when you put your finger in there. I said, your finger is not long enough to go all the way through your vagina, through your cervix

00:35:19.810 - 00:35:49.710

Leah Packard: and into the uterus where this is where a baby would be forming. I said, even a doctor cannot do that when a doctor examines you. Leah Packard: And she said, oh, I didn't know that. I was so sure that what I felt was a baby forming. Leah Packard: And the kicker of this story, she was in the nursing program here at Towson. Leah Packard: Now you laugh, but it's really sad.

00:35:49.710 - 00:36:06.420

Reyes, Leah: That is sad. Leah Packard: That she had so little information coming into college Leah Packard: about her own body and her own awareness of what was going on. Leah Packard: And I thought, my goodness, there really is a need for this program.

00:36:08.320 - 00:36:24.820

Leah Packard: I was astonished. Reyes, Leah: Wow. Leah Packard: She walked out very relieved, and of course, we set her up to go, you know, whenever she could go next. Leah Packard: But I've never forgotten that story all these years. I remember it very well.

00:36:25.240 - 00:36:45.760

Reyes, Leah: Goodness gracious. Leah Packard: I could still hear her voice telling me she was sure because she could feel a baby forming. Leah Packard: So was there a need for something like the Women's Aid Society, where you could go immediately and have somebody help you with Leah Packard: a mistaken notion like that?

00:36:45.760 - 00:37:01.370

Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: I'm sure she walked away greatly relieved, even if she still thought she was pregnant. And I never did find out later how this story went, or anything. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: I saw her in school after that and she seemed to be fine. She never told me what happened, but

00:37:02.050 - 00:37:28.490

Leah Packard: I remember that story all these years later. Reyes, Leah: So there was a very big gap in knowledge over reproductive health and function, so how did you come into that information, or was it that book you mentioned? Leah Packard: How did I personally? Leah Packard: How did I personally learn about the reproductive? I was a reader. I mean, even in high school.

00:37:28.980 - 00:37:53.280

Leah Packard: We didn't have… As I said, I grew up in Lutherville. I went to Delaney High School. We did not have sex education classes in high school at that time. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: And the only thing we had was our home economics teacher. Yes, we took home economics then. Leah Packard: Bless her. Had a nurse come in and talk to her classes about this.

00:37:54.340 - 00:38:33.620

Leah Packard: And I don't know whether she did that of her own initiative, or Leah Packard: the school did that every year. That was wonderful, but it was just the girls, and it was just if you, you know, were taking that home economics class with that particular teacher. Leah Packard: It should have been widely available by the high school level. And of course, I understand it is now. Things are really different. And I bet you may not believe that because you're in a contemporary age where you can pick up your phone and find out any facts that you need. But it wasn't that way at that time. Leah Packard: It wasn't that way.

00:38:33.720 - 00:39:03.950

Reyes, Leah: Yeah, the strides we have now and that is like thanks to groups like yours that made Reyes, Leah: a conversation available like that. So that was very important work, so thank you so much. But also just, it just spurred in my head, so you educated yourself a lot about these reproductive Reyes, Leah: health measures Reyes, Leah: and birth control safety. Did the club ever make you do any required reading to educate yourself or

00:39:04.170 - 00:39:25.930

Reyes, Leah: did they just trust that you knew what you did? Leah Packard: No, they may have had the the thick copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves. Leah Packard: You know, it was the thicker one that was put out. I don't specifically remember it 'cause I don't remember a lot of books at Glen Esk. Leah Packard: And other people were using that space, I imagine, so we didn't leave things behind.

00:39:26.170 - 00:39:55.690

Leah Packard: Um... Leah Packard: But certainly you can go to any library, either at a school library or a public library, and find these facts if you have a want to do that. But not everybody is inclined to do that kind of academic research work. Leah Packard: And I just felt it's, Leah Packard: you know, it's important to know about what's going on with your body and everything, and I felt that way from middle school on,

00:39:56.890 - 00:40:19.130

Leah Packard: and more and more information was coming out, and it was easier to to find, Leah Packard: you know, and I thankfully had parents who wanted me to learn and to discover that. Leah Packard: So perhaps not every student had parents that felt that way Reyes, Leah: Yeah.

00:40:19.130 - 00:40:37.930

Leah Packard: or were so open to, you know, Reyes, Leah: Yeah. Leah Packard: having their daughters study that. Leah Packard: But thankfully, mine wanted me to. My father was a teacher, so, you know, knowledge is power.

00:40:38.070 - 00:40:54.400

Reyes, Leah: It is. It's very nice you can share that. So I guess my last question. Sorry, I keep thinking of them as we talk. Leah Packard: Uh huh. Reyes, Leah: So, Reyes, Leah: as you left the Women's Aid Society,

00:40:54.540 - 00:41:15.900

Reyes, Leah: was that due to your internship or did Reyes, Leah: the society kind of dissolve out of no longer having a need for it? Leah Packard: I don't know what happened to it after that. Leah Packard: I think working at Shepherd Pratt sort of became the

00:41:16.620 - 00:41:42.080

Leah Packard: my central locus there, you know, because I was in that program Leah Packard: and I worked there during the school year as well as in the summers. Leah Packard: And then, after the first year or two, Leah Packard: we had summer placements in community programs,

00:41:43.520 - 00:41:59.220

Leah Packard: and I did my internship there. So Leah Packard: I don't know exactly what was going on with campus with the Women's Aid Society. I don't remember what happened to it after I finished Leah Packard: volunteering there. Leah Packard: It would be interesting to know.

00:42:00.190 - 00:42:13.810

Leah Packard: You know, maybe I could ask Trish Vermillion. Reyes, Leah: I would love if you did. Leah Packard: Yeah, yeah. Leah Packard: Well, there may have been less need for them then.

00:42:13.810 - 00:42:44.620

Reyes, Leah: Yes. Yes. So I saw that the group started and there wasn't even a Planned Parenthood at Goucher. Reyes, Leah: And I believe Reyes, Leah: that they did abortion referral services, I guess, closer to New York, because as you said, even though it was legal in Maryland in 1968, there weren't a lot of actual clinics available. Reyes, Leah: So I was thinking… Which I know you can't confirm that the group might have dissolved after

00:42:44.800 - 00:43:09.320

Reyes, Leah: the need was filled by the Goucher Clinic, and then in '73, the Planned Parenthood Clinic in the Health Center at Towson. Leah Packard: You know, I don't know if it was Maryland State law at the time, but I think in some Leah Packard: jurisdictions, it was illegal to refer a woman out of state to have an abortion. Reyes, Leah: Yes, I believe it was...

00:43:10.110 - 00:43:42.760

Reyes, Leah: That's correct. I think in 1968, it was legal only in serious circumstances, and abortion was to be permitted. But then, in '73, when it was legalized from Roe v. Wade, Reyes, Leah: it just became easier, and maybe the need for referrals became moot. Leah Packard: Well, was that for in-state abortions or to do referrals for out-of-state where they were done? Leah Packard: Do you ever... Do you know if it was ever illegal in Maryland to make a referral for out of state?

00:43:43.400 - 00:44:05.780

Reyes, Leah: Let me see… I mean, there were definitely advertisements in the Towerlight for abortion referrals before it was, like, fully legalized in 73, so I'd imagine it would have been legal. Reyes, Leah: That there were, there were so many abortion advertisements for New York in the Towerlights. It was really cool. Leah Packard: Oh. Reyes, Leah: Yeah, so I would think it was legal.

00:44:09.930 - 00:44:33.100

Leah Packard: Okay, well, Leah Packard: I never had a young woman ask me about a referral to have an abortion. I mean, it sort of went from women's aid counseling to the Goucher clinic, and not… I don't remember making outside sources, Leah Packard: you know, making any of those referrals. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm.

00:44:33.580 - 00:44:59.860

Leah Packard: Yeah. Reyes, Leah: Got it. Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been very valuable. Reyes, Leah: Unless you have anything else to say, I think we're ready to wrap up. Leah Packard: No, it's been very interesting participating in this. Jogged the memory a little bit, especially about Trish Vermillion. I may give her a call and see if she still lives around here, and

00:44:59.860 - 00:45:22.050

Leah Packard: what her memories are. But it's quite possible she was the one who got me interested in in volunteering for that program. Reyes, Leah: Mm hm. Leah Packard: So, yes. Well, I hope I've been helpful to you for what little information I had. Reyes, Leah: Very helpful. Thank you so much. This is so much more than I could find in the student newspapers at the time.

00:45:22.270 - 00:45:38.650

Koot, Christian: Yeah, it was really wonderful. Thank you for participating, and we will make sure that Koot, Christian: once we get it posted, we'll make sure we send you a link so that you can see it as well. Leah Packard: Okay. Leah Packard: Well, that's fine. I don't particularly like looking at myself.

00:45:38.650 - 00:45:45.250

Koot, Christian: Well. Leah Packard: I don't know that I want to sit down and watch. Koot, Christian: Fair enough. Leah Packard: Oh, yeah.