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Kurt Anderson: Okay. L.X.: So, first I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today, Kurt. My name is L.X. Hammond, L.X.: and I'm interested in talking with you as part of the Unearthing Towson's History and the Occupy Towson Project, which seeks to uncover and understand gaps in the archival record for Black student activism on campus. L.X.: We're very much interested in hearing about your time in SGA and how you experienced Occupy Towson through your own perspective.

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L.X.: I want to verify that you've received the release form, and that you're okay with us recording our conversation today as an oral history, and we also may take notes as you're speaking. Kurt Anderson: Yes. L.X.: Great! We have… L.X.: We have approximately 10 questions to ask you regarding your time and experience at Towson University 10 years ago during the events of Occupy Towson, and do you have any questions before we start?

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Kurt Anderson: Nope. L.X.: Cool. So please share some details about your time at Towson, for example, years that you were there, like, your major, organizations you were a part of, etc. Kurt Anderson: Yeah, so, I graduated high school in 2012, came to Towson as a freshman in 2012, I graduated in 2016. I started as a business major, but, halfway through my freshman year, switched to IT, information technology, and graduated with an IT degree. Kurt Anderson: I lived in Newell Hall, or, so I lived in West Village my freshman year, Newell Hall first two years, or, sorry, my sophomore and junior year.

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Kurt Anderson: And then when I ran for SGA President, I lived off campus. A little fun fact I like to say, my grandmother also went to Towson when it was the State Teachers College, and she also lived in Newell Hall her freshman year, like, 40 years before me. Kurt Anderson: I was involved in SGA ever since I was a freshman, I was a freshman senator, and I guess one thing to mention about my freshman year Kurt Anderson: is that had been right after the youth… The student organization, the Youth for Western Civilization, and the White Student Union, drama had gone on campus, and so that freshman year is actually when I first met some of, the student activists that would be in Occupy Towson, but in my role as the SGA senator and some of the, like, Kurt Anderson: protests and things that had gone on on campus against the White Student Union my freshman year. And I think, I mean, one of the reasons that I picked Towson was

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Kurt Anderson: because of its diversity, and particularly its LGBT community. So, my freshman… So, I was elected the first openly gay SGA president my senior year, but my freshman year, I mean, Kurt Anderson: was the first time that I had really fully, like, come out. I was slightly out in high school, and I picked Towson because I knew it was a safe space, and a place that was accepting, and I could be myself. Kurt Anderson: And I can remember freshman year as a senator, particularly some of the stuff with the White Student Union being, like, kind of scary, and then a little bit, like, rocking that, of like, wow, I thought Towson was this, like, you know, Kurt Anderson: diverse, inclusive place where, like, I would feel safe, and seeing, like, some of the stuff with Matt Heimbach and the White Student Union as a freshman when I just started on campus was kind of jarring, and a little bit...

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Kurt Anderson: Yeah, just kind of shook what I had perceived at Towson before, you know, when I'd actually, started here. Kurt Anderson: Trying to think if there's anything else. Yeah, so… Yeah. L.X.: Any other clubs you're a part of? Kurt Anderson: I was involved in,

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Kurt Anderson: like, the Residence Hall Association. I was an RA my sophomore and junior year, and I was in SGA, like, I was in SGA all four years, and so I was so involved. Kurt Anderson: I wasn't really a part of any other student orgs. I had a ton of friends that were in, like, a lot of random groups, and so… And when you're an SGA senator, it's your job to, like, you're assigned 10 student groups, and so you go to a lot of student group meetings, but, like, I didn't necessarily identify with any particular group. Kurt Anderson: And a lot of my time was spent in SGA and as an RA. So no, there wasn't any, at least not that I can remember off the top of my head, so clearly nothing good at all. L.X.: Gotcha.

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L.X.: And when did you become aware of the Occupy Towson movement? Kurt Anderson: So I was trying to remember. I don't remember when, exactly. I remember we knew that the SGA takeover was happening, like, that morning of. Kurt Anderson: And we knew… so one of the members of the, like, Occupy Towson movement had, like, printed the list of demands in the SGA office, and so we actually… And left it on the printer, and so we actually had a list of, like, everything that... We kind of knew what was going to happen. Kurt Anderson: And we actually moved our SGA meeting from our normal meeting location to

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Kurt Anderson: the ballrooms at the time, Chesapeake ballrooms, a bigger space so that we didn't have a, like, fire marshal or fire issue. And I will never forget that day Kurt Anderson: leading up to the Occupy Towson movement, we had countless meetings with university administration. Taylor, who was my vice president at the time, she chairs the SGA meeting, and we were going through the list of demands, and so we fully knew, Kurt Anderson: like, what was going to be coming later on that day. But beyond the day of, I think there were rumblings of it. Kurt Anderson: Honestly, that year, there was just so much that was going on. I mean, after Freddie Gray's death, what was that, like, the summer, or like, I guess the spring before Occupy Towson?

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Kurt Anderson: I mean, it was… There was just so much going on, and especially for me personally, like, I can remember Freddie Gray and seeing that, like, video of him being, like, dragged, Kurt Anderson: and that, like, being like, oh shit, and, like, realizing that it's, like, right down the street. And it's like, I feel like, like, I mean, you had heard about, like, Trayvon Martin and, like, I don't remember, like, I guess, Michael Brown, like, and there were a few other things that had happened when I was, like, younger the years prior. Kurt Anderson: But for some reason, Freddie Gray was, like, something that, like, I don't know, was, like, very real, and, like, I can vividly remember it, like, Kurt Anderson: really, like, affecting me, and so after that, there was just a ton of stuff that had gone on around campus, and a lot of the demands were stuff that were… I mean, actually, all of the demands, like, in the list, with the exception of, I think, I remember the Debate Team, because Korey was a part of that, but

00:07:07.360 - 00:07:33.150

Kurt Anderson: a lot of the demands were stuff that we were already working on. Like, our Director of Academic Affairs, we were working with the University Senate on the tenure stuff. Kurt Anderson: And, like, our administration ran… Well, anyways, I know we'll talk about that stuff later, so I'll stick to the script. Alright, I'll stick to the question. L.X.: No worries, for the record, you can go L.X.: whatever which way you want.

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L.X.: No... Kurt Anderson: Okay, I mean, maybe I'll just continue, because it's top of mind, if that's okay. L.X.: Sure, sure. Kurt Anderson: So, no, I mean, a lot of the list of the demands, we had already been, like, aware of, and, like, we were dealing with

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Kurt Anderson: student groups who had been not necessarily targeted by SGA, but, like, when I ran for SGA, we very much ran on changing the culture of SGA, and the demographics of Towson had changed. Like, when I was a freshman, we were a predominantly white campus. When I was a senior, we were not a predominantly white campus. Kurt Anderson: And the SGA had been traditionally very Greek, and so if you weren't in an IFC chapter or a panel chapter, you weren't gonna win an exec board position. And I had a good friend freshman year who was the treasurer for ADC, the African Diaspora Club, Kurt Anderson: and she was requesting funding, Vanessa was requesting funding, when I was in SGA my, like, junior year, and was having challenges navigating our, like, financial policy, Kurt Anderson: and, like, having cultural events being denied funding. And so, like, that was literally one of the issues that, like, we ran on, and one of the reasons I, like, asked her to be my Attorney General on my ticket. And so, like, a lot of the demands like that were stuff that we were very much aware of and, like, working on, you know what I'm saying?

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Kurt Anderson: And that was one of the things, like, when we were aware of it, it's like, okay, we already know this stuff, like, what's, like, what's going on? Like, what's the point? Kurt Anderson: So, yep. L.X.: Gotcha. L.X.: And so

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L.X.: what was it like during the SGA takeover? Like, what was your experience like when all of that was going on? Kurt Anderson: Yeah, so, Kurt Anderson: the interesting thing is, so I was SGA president, and the vice president actually chairs the meeting. And so, I remember sitting in, you know, we're in our SGA meeting, you can hear them, like, chanting, walking up to the meeting. Kurt Anderson: And we had already, like, practiced this stuff, so Taylor, we already, like, knew what was sort of going, but the directive that we had gotten, you know, from administration at the time was that, like,

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Kurt Anderson: I'm not an officer of the university, and so I cannot sign the document, because I legally do not have the authority to. Kurt Anderson: And so, as we were going through, they wanted me to sign a list of demands. And I was told I cannot sign a list of demands. As to why I didn't just sign it and say, yeah, we're here to help you, I do not know, and Taylor and I talk about this still to this day, because I don't know what would have happened. Like, yep, we agree, great, sign. Kurt Anderson: And, it was literally, like… And I remember, like, seeing, like, Kurt Anderson: some of the administrators, and, like, I had a great relationship with a lot of administrators. I think we were just so caught up in it. So, like, during it, it was literally just, like, I don't know what to do, or how this is gonna end, because I can't sign this, and…

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Kurt Anderson: We were texting with administration, across the view, like, okay, we'll just… We'll do a Senate vote, and then I'll sign it. And then I did that, and then that's, Kurt Anderson: you know, how it ended at that day. What we found out later, like, later on that day, or the next day, is that we were, like, the distractions so that they could, like, Kurt Anderson: show up to the president's office the next day. I don't, like, I don't actually know, but, like, in that moment, like, when we were going there, A, we knew it was coming, like, we had heard it, we'd had the list of demands, and, Kurt Anderson: I think, too, like, there was a little bit of, like, frustration with, like… I mean, we were navigating the University Senate on, like, tenure, and so there was definitely a little bit of, like,

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Kurt Anderson: You know, okay, maybe this'll be, like, something that'll, like, Kurt Anderson: stir the pot a little bit with administration, so we can, like, push things, like, further. And I can remember, like, some of our university senate meetings, and, like, some of the discussions were like... Kurt Anderson: Like, if some of the students, like, knew some of the discussions that were going on with this group, with faculty, like, this would have been like, oh my god. Kurt Anderson: And so you have that layered on with this, and then there was a lot of, like, especially at the time for me, like, I was very much focused on, like, okay, all your list of demands, like, I went through lists, like, we're doing this, this, and this, and so I had a whole thing about, like, okay, these are all the things. Like, we're literally doing everything here, except for, like, there was, like, MCE, we had, after the demands, we had talked to,

00:12:07.430 - 00:12:38.230

Kurt Anderson: like, the University System of Maryland chapter, Kurt Anderson: and, but, like, in that… So, like, I was also… There was a part of me that was, like, very, like, offended or, like, hurt, because it's, like… And, like, I knew, like, some of these students were, like, members of SGA, so, like, I knew them, right? We're talking to them the morning of, the day of, and then you're, like, then coming to the meeting, and then also, like, Kurt Anderson: you know, like, some of the Occupy Towson members I had known for years, right, at Towson. Kurt Anderson: And I think I took it

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Kurt Anderson: very… or I know I took it very personally, and it wasn't until I was, like, older that I, like, realized that, like, Kurt Anderson: I don't, like… All of this stuff, like, it doesn't actually, like, Kurt Anderson: matter about, like, what's necessarily, like, right, or, like, the actual piece of, you know, this is what… This is the issue that we're working on, this is what's happening around the issue, right? And this is, like, being literally worked on and changed as we're talking about. Kurt Anderson: When… Especially when you're in a leadership role, and this is, I think, too, like,

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Kurt Anderson: one of the things that, like, when I think about… So I guess I'm moving into the impact. Kurt Anderson: Is that okay, L.X.? I'm sorry. L.X.: Yeah, that's totally fine. Kurt Anderson: I like to bounce around.

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Kurt Anderson: Okay, let me... Kurt Anderson: Let's just move on to impact, because then I'll bring all that stuff. Did I answer that question? L.X.: It's… Yeah, yeah, you're totally fine. L.X.: Did you want to talk about impact?

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Kurt Anderson: Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, so the impact, yeah. So I think, like, no, so what I was saying is, I think, like, I took it, like, fairly personally, Kurt Anderson: Like, Kurt Anderson: why… Like, when we're doing this stuff, advocating, like… And, like, why take over the meeting, right? And, like, Kurt Anderson: you know, do this, personally to us, versus, like,

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Kurt Anderson: you know, partner with us and work on these things. And I think, like, for me personally, like, Kurt Anderson: it was like… Like, I will never forget that day, or that meeting, and I can, like, picture it, and I wish... Taylor and I are always like, oh my gosh, I wish we had videos, because there were videos, and for some reason, they're, like, lost. But, like, still to this day, like, I think about, like, when I have, like, an intense interview, Kurt Anderson: or, like, I don't know, just, like, something that's, like, really outside my comfort zone or something, I think about, well, I made it through Occupy Towson, it ended up being, like, Kurt Anderson: fine and great, and, like...

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L.X.: Yeah. Kurt Anderson: You know, I'll… Like, this is nothing compared to, like, literally being screamed at by hundreds of students, half of them that you already know. And I think, like... Kurt Anderson: I think too, it, like, really taught me about, like, Kurt Anderson: the importance of, like, showing up and, like, listening, and, like, having people feel heard, and, like,

00:15:09.790 - 00:15:48.790

Kurt Anderson: just because something is this way, but if someone doesn't feel that it is that way, right, and their experience is, like, different, right? That doesn't, like… Essentially, by me saying, oh, we're doing this, I'm, like, invalidating their experience. And I hadn't really had the maturity to, like, understand that Kurt Anderson: at that time, right? And so, like, I view… I mean, that year in SGA, and there's a lot of other things that I'll get through as we're talking, Kurt Anderson: I think really made me the person that I am today. And Occupy Towson was a big part of that. And I think that Kurt Anderson: it,

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Kurt Anderson: like, it honestly, when I look back at it, like, it makes me more… It makes me proud to, like, say that I'm a Towson alum, because the way that the administration, like, handled it, and, like... Kurt Anderson: I mean, actually, I haven't actually followed what's going on with tenure, so, like, some of the things have, like, not actually changed, or I don't know if they've changed. But, I, like, when you look at, like, across the country, Kurt Anderson: like, Towson… Like, Occupy Towson at Towson was very unique and was the anomaly in some of the student protests that it could come off. And it really… I mean, one of the things that I loved so much about Towson is, like, how student-focused Kurt Anderson: and, like, as me, as SGA president, the amount of, like, influence and power I had across the university, and the amount of committees that I sat on, that people actually, like, listened to, and were able to, like, how students actually were able to, like, impact change, and you just don't see that across other campuses, even in the USM.

00:16:47.520 - 00:17:21.280

Kurt Anderson: And I think that that, like, Occupy Towson, like, yeah, was definitely, like, you know, proved that out, right? Kurt Anderson: And that's why, I mean, you see, even today, right, this stuff, and, you know, the Towson Freedom School and everything, like, still being a part of it, what the CSD [Center for Student Diversity] has been doing. Kurt Anderson: And I think, like, yeah, it just… Like, Towson's very unique, and it's, like, student-focused, Kurt Anderson: you know, community, and now that I'm… I'm just rambling on about that, so cut that.

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L.X.: Well, it sounds like Occupy was very influential in kind of how you move around L.X.: today, as an adult, like, a fully grown adult, you know? L.X.: Were you asked to step down at all from your position? Kurt Anderson: You know, it's… When I saw that question, I asked Taylor, I don't recall that. Taylor was like, I think you probably were. I don't… And it definitely… I don't think it was in… Do you guys have a list of the demands? I don't think it was in the demands.

00:17:50.220 - 00:18:24.080

Kurt Anderson: I don't remember anyone ever yelling at me, like, Kurt, you need to step down. And even, like, I remember we went to certain student forums, like, I remember, like, Korey… Kurt Anderson: Korey Johnson, who was a senator, like, I love Korey. But I remember she was like, where is your SGA president? Right after I had, like, stepped out. Like, that's the only thing I remember, but I don't remember anyone even… Even when they were demanding Dr. Chandler step down, I don't think they actually, like, did. Kurt Anderson: So, you know, I don't recall that. L.X.: Yeah, I think it was, like, for Chandler, like, if you don't do these…

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L.X.: If you don't try to meet these demands, we're gonna ask you to resign, even though he was interim at the time, but yeah. Kurt Anderson: Okay, yeah. L.X.: What do you believe your role was during Occupy Towson? Kurt Anderson: Yeah, so… I think… So, A, I was a student body president.

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Kurt Anderson: So during the specific, like, takeover of the SGA meeting, like, Taylor was the Chair of the meeting, and so, like, Kurt Anderson: that was, like, her, Kurt Anderson: like, thing, right? But when you talk about, like, Occupy Towson as a whole, like, I was the chief student advocate, right? And, like, I really valued and, like, enjoyed the, like, advocacy part of my role, Kurt Anderson: and, like, meeting with administration about, you know, issues that were, like, affecting students.

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Kurt Anderson: And when I look back, like, I can remember, too, like, after I graduated, like, really, like, missing that, like, in my first, like, corporate job, being, like, I'm literally, like, I work in tech, so, like, I, like, write SQL code. Kurt Anderson: And it was just, like, so unfulfilling. Kurt Anderson: And especially seeing that there were some pretty big, pivotal things that I did as SGA that even when I go back to campus now, still happen. Like, the #NotAtTU campaign, I literally started and created the logo, and, like, worked with, Kurt Anderson: like, the, design services, and that campaign is still going on at Towson, and that came out of

00:20:03.680 - 00:20:31.190

Kurt Anderson: the White Student Union stuff. Kurt Anderson: The other piece that I will, like, never forget is Kurt Anderson: in, like, August or something, we had had a student that emailed, the SGA, like, email address at, like, 2AM, saying that there was, like, graffiti all over Freedom Square, and it was, like, White Student Union is back, like, white power, like, really, like, Nazi, like, propaganda all over Freedom Square, and she had sent pictures, and it was, like, 2 AM. Kurt Anderson: And this is right after, like,

00:20:31.230 - 00:21:21.410

Kurt Anderson: I felt like we had finally, like, gotten rid of, like, Matt Heimbach and the White Student Union, because it had been going on for all these years, but he had, like, left campus. Kurt Anderson: And when we got that email, I remember calling TUPD from my apartment, and then driving to campus at, like, 3 AM, and literally erasing everything on the whiteboard, because, Kurt Anderson: like, essentially what Matt Heimbach was doing, and, like, Turning Point was doing it too, they're just, like, terrorizing students, making them feel unsafe, but there was, like, no credible evidence that anyone was even on campus. And when they reviewed the security footage, they couldn't even find the person that did it. It was, like, one person. Kurt Anderson: And, like, we don't even know if it was, like, someone related to it. And so… But the thing that, like, I really enjoy… Like, there were a lot of little things like that, where

00:21:21.450 - 00:22:11.600

Kurt Anderson: I was really empowered to, like, do what I felt was, like, right, and, like, the student that emailed that, like, I… We spent a lot of time, like, connecting them with the university administration, and, like, I felt like I really helped, you know, them feel more connected and safe at TU. Kurt Anderson: And it was the same thing. When we were having issues with, Kurt Anderson: like, student org policing and everything, with… I mean, one of my really good friends, Vanessa, I can remember, you know, before I was SGA president, like, Kurt Anderson: you know, seeing her in budget hearing, right, and seeing some of the conversations that were going on in the SGA, and, like, that was one of the things that, like, drove us to run, and then seeing, like, being on the committees, and literally working on the policies

00:22:11.600 - 00:22:42.210

Kurt Anderson: that, like, changed how student org events were being, like, policed. Kurt Anderson: And that was really, like, impactful, right? And to be a part of something that, like, Kurt Anderson: I don't know, to have an impact in something that, like, was able to make student life better, Kurt Anderson: like, was something that, like, I don't… Like, I got a lot of, like, fulfillment and, like, joy from it, and that's what I saw in my role as, right? Like, when a student came to me with an issue, like,

00:22:42.480 - 00:23:03.830

Kurt Anderson: To do everything in my power to, like, Kurt Anderson: make that better for them, right? And I think that, like, Kurt Anderson: one of the things that, like, really came from Occupy Towson is, like, Kurt Anderson: it gave us a little bit more empowerment to push a little bit harder,

00:23:03.900 - 00:23:58.370

Kurt Anderson: particularly with the University Senate, than we probably would have without that. And I think that that's what we, like, later on, like, when we were talking with, like, John and Bilphena and everything, it was like, oh, you guys were the distraction, blah blah blah. But I think we realized, like, how, like, Kurt Anderson: it actually helped us do our jobs, like, better, right? And, yeah. Kurt Anderson: I think, too, like, I mean, I… L.X., like, my senior year, like, I was fully, like… Kurt Anderson: I mean, these are, like, pivotal times for my own, like, personal development, and so, like, navigating all of these things… I mean, this is a lot of pressure for, like, a student to be on top of just our normal, like, SGA stuff.

00:23:58.370 - 00:24:37.290

Kurt Anderson: And I felt like I, like, personally, like, grew so much from, like, all of this, but, like, have, like… Like, Taylor is one of my, like, best friends, and, like, we… Because of all this, we were on the phone Kurt Anderson: twice every other day, and, like, ever since then, like, I mean, I don't talk to her every day now, but we talk every other day, like, once or twice a week, like, I still see… And, like, I feel like Kurt Anderson: all of this, and, like, even… We talk about it now, like, I mean, she owns a catering business and everything, and so it's like, oh my… Like, I feel like I… Like, I just… I don't know, like, that's my, like, person that we, like, if we ever have a chance to, like, work together, like, I feel like we're, like, so alive. So anyways, Kurt Anderson: Back to...

00:24:37.800 - 00:25:05.820

Kurt Anderson: Wait, so you were talking about impact, right? Let me just make sure I didn't miss it. L.X.: Yeah, just, like, your role during Occupy. L.X.: But I think you answered that question pretty well. It sounds like that you were more of, like, a protector and influencer kind of role, like, influencing, like, the administration, and also the people around you that, you know, this is okay, like, this is something that we want, right? L.X.: I don't know. Does that sound fair?

00:25:05.820 - 00:26:13.980

Kurt Anderson: Yeah, yeah, like a chief advocate. I mean, I was literally elected by the student body to be an advocate for students, and so… And I took that, like, very, like, meaningfully, especially because of how we ran. Like, I was never… I was sort of more of a, like, behind-the-scenes type person. Like, I kind of ran for SGA president last-minute. Kurt Anderson: And so, like, and because of, like, I don't know, some of my friends and, like, what they had gone through in the year, and, like, we were trying to change the culture of the SGA. And I really do think it changed. Like, you don't see... Like, it used to be very Greek-heavy. Kurt Anderson: And you really don't see that after our year. Not that that's necessarily a problem, but I think it moves towards, like, advocacy and, like, improving student life versus, like, resume building, right? Kurt Anderson: And, yeah, so I really viewed my role as, like, an advocate, a chief advocate, and so these were students that had concerns, and so I wanted to do everything I could to make them feel heard, and then, you know, navigate the system of the university to, like, impact the change that they wanted to bring about on campus.

00:26:16.380 - 00:26:44.480

L.X.: Yeah. L.X.: You mentioned this a little bit briefly, but what were race relations like on campus during this time? Kurt Anderson: Yeah, so… Kurt Anderson: And I think that was, like, one of the, like, more challenging things. Like, it was ex… Like, the white… I can remember driving to campus being, like, shaking and, like, scared, and, like,

00:26:44.930 - 00:27:30.390

Kurt Anderson: like, asking, like, when I was, like, talking to TUPD, and I can… I cannot tell you how many students, Kurt Anderson: like, I mean, like, there was just a lot of emotions around everything, and there was a lot of tension in the SGA office, the amount of people that were, like, crying, in, like, the office, and I think, like, I mean, it really, like, when I think back to, like, Kurt Anderson: the Freddie Gray video in, like, Baltimore that summer, I just, like, kept re, like, playing, and it was just, like, so horrific to see, right? And at the time... Kurt Anderson: And when you had the White Student Union, I mean, so,

00:27:30.490 - 00:28:17.840

Kurt Anderson: to back things up, so when I started at Towson in 2012, that had been right after when Dr. Vatz had stopped being an advisor for the Youth of Western Civilization, and therefore, the White Student Union couldn't be on campus. Kurt Anderson: But, like, Matt Heimbach would still, like, randomly pop in just to, like, agitate things and try to, like, stay in the news and stay relevant. And, like, I mean, Matt Heimbach is a literal white supremacist, like, neo-Nazi. Like, he's, like, well-known, like, just literally Google him. Kurt Anderson: And it's like, that was like a Towson student that, like, a member of the University Senate and faculty gave a platform and, like, allowed to exist on campus. And Kurt Anderson: one, two years before I became a student at Towson in 2012,

00:28:18.130 - 00:28:48.150

Kurt Anderson: the SGA used to vote on whether or not to bring a student org on campus. The Queer Student… the SGA voted down the Queer Student Union, like, a few years before I was at campus, and blocked them from coming to campus Kurt Anderson: because they didn't, like, they didn't think we needed a Queer Student Union. Kurt Anderson: And the university had recognized that the student body, Kurt Anderson: right, was discriminating against other students

00:28:48.390 - 00:29:17.490

Kurt Anderson: and literally changed the policy, because, well, legally, they had a right to Kurt Anderson: organize on campus, so… But B, like… And they took away the SGA's authority to, like, approve student groups, and created this registered student organization stuff, which allowed the White Student Union to actually come to campus. Kurt Anderson: And it was partly to block... Kurt Anderson: It was partly so the SGA did not have to be in a position where they voted down the White Student Union, and then, like, more stuff erupted.

00:29:18.020 - 00:29:46.240

Kurt Anderson: And so, when I'm walking into Student Year, I'm seeing how Kurt Anderson: student advocacy, like, giving students, like, a voice is literally harming other students, right? Policies that the University [unintelligible], because they have a legal obligation, right, are, Kurt Anderson: you know, Kurt Anderson: hurting students, right? And then I'm seeing the power of the student government being slowly chipped away at

00:29:46.380 - 00:30:27.070

Kurt Anderson: in a way of… When, simultaneously, we're having challenges impacting change on campus. Kurt Anderson: And when you look at, like... Kurt Anderson: When you look at the bigger picture of Occupy Towson, Kurt Anderson: it really does go back to the White Student Union, and a lot of the issues that were in the demands, like the stuff about policing around student orgs and everything, that stuff came out from all of that stuff, so it sort of led to this, like, breaking point. And I don't necessarily think it was...

00:30:27.340 - 00:30:50.760

Kurt Anderson: Like, I don't think it was… Kurt Anderson: Like, I guess the thing that, like... Kurt Anderson: Well, I don't know what I'm saying. Kurt Anderson: And so when you ask about, like, race relations on campus, it's like, you have all this stuff that's blowing up on Towson's campus, right? And, like, been festering for years, right? And a lot of people feeling unsafe, and, like, me, like, I'm white, so, like, I don't know what it's like to, like, be a person of color

00:30:50.810 - 00:31:25.280

Kurt Anderson: on a campus. But, like, I was experiencing this as a, like, white, like, gay man. I had really close friends that were experiencing, like, Kurt Anderson: microaggressions and, like, outwardly racist, like, Kurt Anderson: you know, comments and things by elected SGA members, and then when you Kurt Anderson: layer on top of everything that's going on in the world, and right down the street in Baltimore, it just… It really just

00:31:25.870 - 00:32:09.060

Kurt Anderson: lays the foundation for, like, things to, like, boil over. And especially for me, like, I don't know if Kurt Anderson: Freddie Gray, and I don't know if I'm… I might be misremembering… Was, like, one of the first times that it, like, deeply affected me. You would obviously… Like, stuff has been on the news forever, but anytime you had seen, like, a systematic issue, like, over-policing, and Kurt Anderson: like, that was, like, very, like, pivotal, and there was a lot of, like, hurt, and so I think for a lot of students, right, when you're in college, this is when you're first seen, at least at that time, like, how, excuse my language, fucked up the world is and our country is, right? Kurt Anderson: And so…

00:32:17.070 - 00:32:46.450

Kurt Anderson: So yeah, I mean, I, like… Kurt Anderson: I'm trying to think if I missed anything. Like, I feel like I'm, like, bouncing around. Kurt Anderson: So, I mean, and that's where I see, like, race relations at that time. I think, too, like, we had had an issue with… Kurt Anderson: There were, like, safety concerns at, like, homecoming one year, and it was after, like, there was a shooting at, like, Morgan or something, and so

00:32:46.840 - 00:33:26.230

Kurt Anderson: the university administration had, you know, implemented a policy that Kurt Anderson: you know, we had to, like, have police at certain student org events. It was, like, detrimental because it required student orgs to pay for that, so that cut into their budgets, right? So the money that we were allocating. But then it was, like, very clearly targeted at our diverse student organizations. Kurt Anderson: And that was not happening at PanHel, or some of the other organizations. And so, when you blatantly see TUPD at a BSU cookout, but you see no TUPD at IFC's cookout. Kurt Anderson: Like, pretty blatant, right?

00:33:26.400 - 00:33:50.180

Kurt Anderson: And, you know, being a student in those meetings when it… Like, I don't, like… Kurt Anderson: Like… Okay, so then the answer is to put police at every event? Like, is that... No? Kurt Anderson: And so Kurt Anderson: I think, like, there was just so much of, like, blatant, like… And then, you know, you had

00:33:51.500 - 00:34:36.940

Kurt Anderson: blatantly racist, like, staff members, right? We were getting complaints from students with, like, Kurt Anderson: blatant comments, and then, like, it's very difficult to terminate a university employee. Kurt Anderson: And then, quite frankly, like, when you look at, you know, the University Senate, you have a lot of people that had been at the university, professors that had been at the university that were tenured, that had protections, and they could do whatever they want. There was no recourse for that. And I think that that really… That created a lot of tension on campus for everyone. Kurt Anderson: And particularly our students of color, but, like, if you're, like, the president of, like, I'm just, you know, like, BSU for an example, and you're having to pay for police at your cookout, but then you see that other student orgs don't have to do that, like,

00:34:37.130 - 00:34:57.930

Kurt Anderson: that's crazy. Kurt Anderson: And, so, yeah. L.X.: So we… Going through the research, we did see that L.X.: one of the demands was that

00:34:58.100 - 00:35:12.600

L.X.: the contract with, Maryland Correctional Enterprises L.X.: be ended. L.X.: And we also saw that you're one of the people who actually took a tour of L.X.: one of those facilities.

00:35:12.800 - 00:35:27.100

L.X.: I'm curious. L.X.: What did you observe during the tour of Maryland Correctional Enterprise facilities, L.X.: and what were the reasons for not advocating to terminate L.X.: the contract?

00:35:28.140 - 00:36:00.020

Kurt Anderson: Yeah, so, Kurt Anderson: I remember… So we were also in the process of… The Union was being renovated, or, like, the Union has since been renovated, but when I was president, we were in all of those meetings, laying it out, and so I was familiar with MCE through that, just based on, like, furniture and everything. Kurt Anderson: And I also Kurt Anderson: can remember learning about the, like, prison industrial complex, and there was some… I don't remember…

00:36:01.100 - 00:36:38.440

Kurt Anderson: There was, I guess, a socio… At some point in college, like, Kurt Anderson: you really… You realize how, like, fucked up the system is, right? And how you have people being rounded up on, like, low-level offenses and then essentially forced to, like, work, right, in prison, to make money. Kurt Anderson: And then, I had never heard of the concept of a for-profit prison until I was in college, which is, like, insane. You have literally a private company profiting off of, like, people being, like, Kurt Anderson: incarcerated? Like, that doesn't make any sense, and so… But

00:36:38.550 - 00:37:22.120

Kurt Anderson: one of... So anyway, so that was, like, the first thing of the summer, and, what happened was that summer… So we had been talking about MCE throughout that, and actually Kurt Anderson: one of the members of the CSD, like, we had someone who had a, like, relative that had, like, been incarcerated, and, like, MCE was, like, Kurt Anderson: a reason why they were able to get a job after they were released. Kurt Anderson: And I can remember hearing… And so that initially made us be a little bit more cautious. Well, the main thing… So what happened with the MCE contract is, so every University System of Maryland,

00:37:22.410 - 00:38:05.350

Kurt Anderson: every University System of Maryland school has an SGA, and there's what's called the USMSC, so the University System of Maryland Student Council, and so all the presidents from every organization go to that, and then you have a representative that represents that. And so we would meet monthly, quarterly, I don't remember the cadence, and Kurt Anderson: what happened, because that was a system-wide initiative, that we were working on MCE through the University System of Maryland, and I actually went on that tour because of my role in the University System of Maryland, not necessarily… I didn't organize Kurt Anderson: the trip or anything, and Kurt Anderson: the Maryland Correctional Facility, so, we toured the Jessup facility.

00:38:05.360 - 00:38:53.320

Kurt Anderson: It was, like, very intense, like, very surreal. We actually were guided by one of the executives at MCE, who was a former inmate, and I think he actually went to Towson, too, if I remember correctly. And we met with inmates across the program, and Kurt Anderson: I left that tour with a positive view of the program. Kurt Anderson: Number one, it's a fully self-sustaining program. Kurt Anderson: So, like, the money that's sold in furniture goes back into the equipment and things that they're using. The inmates are paid, they're not paid a living wage or anything, but they are paid better than they would for, like, the commissary or other jobs. But the bigger thing, and what I wasn't fully aware of, is they actually leave MCE

00:38:53.380 - 00:39:45.130

Kurt Anderson: or when they… When they finish, they leave with an associate's degree in, like, job skills. And so one of the things that I wasn't fully aware of, and, like, one of the things that… Part of the reason why I didn't personally advocate to end the contract, but there's a very detailed Kurt Anderson: report that was done by that group, and I… You should talk to Gayon Sampson about that, too. He was present at the time, and he was a Towson alum. He can get you more information. I actually… So, Kurt Anderson: there's… So there should… I emailed Chris. I want to go… I should be able to… If you guys can get access to the S: drive, in my… So, we used to store all of our files on a shared drive. It's been moved to SharePoint. Kurt Anderson: And so if you can talk to Student Activities, I would ask to go through those files. If you go into my folder, that should still exist.

00:39:45.130 - 00:40:27.990

Kurt Anderson: You'll find a lot of this. There's a lot of documentation on all this stuff. I don't know how complete it is, because it's been archived. I don't have it with me now. There is a report about MCE. If it's not there, Gayon should be able to get it for you. Kurt Anderson: And I'll follow up on, like, some of… there's a lot of other documentation that would probably be helpful with this, but, I mean, bottom line is, why I didn't personally advocate, or why, like, after going through the tour, Kurt Anderson: I realized how, like, positive the program was. Essentially, you had inmates getting a free degree. Kurt Anderson: And being paid learning skills that would allow them to be a productive member of society once they finish their sentence.

00:40:28.040 - 00:41:25.970

Kurt Anderson: And they had a lot of research that showed there's lower recidivation rates, and it's… It seemed like it really worked. And so, what I took away from, like, the model of, like, Maryland's, like, Kurt Anderson: you know, system is actually one of the better ones, right? It should be modeled across the country. And I think, too, it was the first thing I realized, like, how stuff differs across states. Kurt Anderson: And there's a lot of really crazy things going on in other states that are not happening here. Kurt Anderson: And I still think about that tour. I actually, all my bookshelves, still have… they make all the license plates, and I still have… they gave us a license plate with our name on it, so I still have that on my shelf, and I think about that a lot. But, the main reason was it did a lot of good, and it seemed to be a model that worked.

00:41:26.030 - 00:42:05.880

Kurt Anderson: And it didn't seem as exploitative as I thought it was initially. And when you dug into the research Kurt Anderson: it seemed to make a lot of sense. Kurt Anderson: And we actually talked to him, so obviously they're picking people that you're gonna talk to, so… But, I mean, the data's the data, right? And I'm a proponent of providing people a second chance and an opportunity. Kurt Anderson: And that's what MCE seemed to enable, and it seemed to be a win-win, right? Like, you're incarcerated, so, like, should we be spending a lot of money sending you to school? I think you can make some arguments, but, like, this seems like it doesn't cost the state anything, it's self-sustaining, and people are getting a free degree.

00:42:06.280 - 00:42:20.160

Kurt Anderson: you know, an associate's degree or something, like a job skill, that directly translates to employment after they graduate. Or, not graduate. Kurt Anderson: After they finish their sentence. L.X.: Yeah, so it seemed like a good compromise there. Kurt Anderson: Yes, yeah.

00:42:22.050 - 00:42:40.750

L.X.: Do you believe the inner workings of the SGA have changed? Kurt Anderson: Yes. I think they've changed a lot, Kurt Anderson: over my time at Towson, the SGA now is very different than the SGA was 15 years ago. Kurt Anderson: I think

00:42:40.940 - 00:43:07.610

Kurt Anderson: a lot of that was due to some of the precursors to Occupy Towson versus Occupy Towson itself. Kurt Anderson: I mentioned the White Student Union. Kurt Anderson: I mean, the SGA's power literally changed because of that, right? Kurt Anderson: Our financial policy... We changed, when I was president, our financial policy so that, like, diverse student organizations could get funding directly. We literally rewrote our policy so they couldn't be discriminated against.

00:43:07.830 - 00:43:51.990

Kurt Anderson: I think that the makeup of the SGA changed. Kurt Anderson: It used to be very Greek-heavy, and if you weren't in a large group, you wouldn't be able to get the votes to, like, be elected. I don't think that is the case anymore. Kurt Anderson: Also, like, when we were… When I was president, like, our year as SGA, we had more people apply, like, we had a record number of applicants being involved in SGA. And we were… I remember we turned away, like, 150-plus people, for, like, director positions. Like, we got so many applications. Kurt Anderson: And so it's interesting to see that, like, now there's a lot of vacancies in SGA.

00:43:52.100 - 00:44:27.800

Kurt Anderson: And, I view that as, like, just shifts since COVID and, you know, how stuff's changed. But, your question is, has the SGA changed, I guess, in relation to Occupy Towson? Yes, directly in, like, our financial policy changed. Kurt Anderson: But also in that, like, I think that, like, more students are more engaged in, student government, and objectively, the SGA is more diverse than it was Kurt Anderson: before our administration. L.X.: Why do you think, that shift happened? Like,

00:44:28.020 - 00:44:53.930

L.X.: you said there was, like, more people from fraternities that were part of the SGA, and I guess now not so much. Taylor was mentioning that, you know, they can barely L.X.: keep any roles filled, or… And like you said, like, they were having a lot of issues with L.X.: having too many applicants. So, I'm wondering, like, what do you think L.X.: changed in that regard, as far as, like,

00:44:54.460 - 00:45:14.290

L.X.: I don't know, it seems like a really significant change, too, over the course of, like, L.X.: only a few years. I'm curious about your thoughts on that. Kurt Anderson: Yeah, I mean, it's one of the things that I'm most proud of and I view as Taylor and I's legacy. When we ran, Kurt Anderson: we created

00:45:14.440 - 00:45:56.820

Kurt Anderson: the Roar movement, like, that was our ticket name, and we had a large slate of student orgs, and we ran to change the culture of the SGA and make it more student-focused and student org-focused. Kurt Anderson: And we got a lot of people excited and involved, and I think that that's why applications go. And then we changed the election policy so you couldn't do that again, because we recognized that if you did that, and you were connected, Kurt Anderson: then there would be no way that, like, an average student could actually win, right? You had to be, like, connected, and, like, you had to have a whole bunch of student orgs. Kurt Anderson: So, I think that that's literally what did it, because we changed the structure of, like, how the elections work.

00:45:56.990 - 00:46:18.190

Kurt Anderson: And, I also think there's just, like, some of my friends that are teachers, there's, like, just Kurt Anderson: changes in, like, Kurt Anderson: you know, student leadership and things, and, like, just generational changes. So I think that, like, since COVID, there's just been a different, Kurt Anderson: I guess,

00:46:19.020 - 00:46:52.940

Kurt Anderson: interest in, like, extra involvement. I mean, this is just… I'm not in college or on campus, so… But some of my friends that are teachers have said that, like, it just, like… Versus, like, when I was a student, I mean, like, everyone wanted to be involved. There's a lot of involvement, right? It just seems like there's less of that now. Kurt Anderson: But I… The biggest change really has to do with, like, the structure of how the elections was changed, so that you couldn't have a big ticket again. L.X.: Maybe the political climate, too, might have something to do with it. L.X.: Current one, anyway.

00:46:53.540 - 00:47:23.000

Kurt Anderson: Yeah, I mean, but this was even before… Well, I guess, actually, no. Yeah, that might be part of it, yes. Kurt Anderson: I mean, I think that… I mean, that's actually a good, too. That's a good point, L.X., because I think… I mean, I look at Kurt Anderson: what's happening in the world and, like, our nation, and, like, SGA was, like, a microcosm of that, and it makes me not want to be anywhere near politics now. But, like... Kurt Anderson: Yeah, I think, yep.

00:47:23.200 - 00:47:47.310

Kurt Anderson: I don't want to take that. L.X.: Just have a couple more questions for ya, so… I know you mentioned Gayon. L.X.: But is there anyone else who you think would be a good person to reach out to for an oral history? Kurt Anderson: I think… So you already talked to, like, Bilphena, John, Breya, and Korey, I'm assuming? And Taylor?

00:47:47.640 - 00:48:06.790

L.X.: Haven't talked to Korey or John, but L.X.: I've talked to Taylor, Bilphena, and, Monaye, or Breya. Kurt Anderson: Yeah, okay. Gayon Sampson would definitely be a good one, more around MCE stuff. Kurt Anderson: He actually ran… I ran against him

00:48:06.900 - 00:48:29.590

Kurt Anderson: for president. Kurt Anderson: So, there's a little bit of a… So it'd be interesting to see his perspective of some of that stuff. Kurt Anderson: And, I'm trying to think. Kurt Anderson: I mean, you could talk to Vanessa, too, if you're curious about, like, she was Attorney General, if you're curious about

00:48:29.920 - 00:49:04.080

Kurt Anderson: her experience in, ADC, she might be difficult to get a hold of, just because now she's, like, a lawyer. Kurt Anderson: But Gayon would be your best bet for MCE stuff, and then, I'll connect you with… I need to send an email to the advisor of SGA, and I'll ask to, like, review some of the files, and then hopefully you can get some of the SGA files. Kurt Anderson: We were trying to build, like, a system, I mean, there's just not a good archive of SGA stuff, and Kurt Anderson: we had an administrative assistant, she's since passed, but, like, I mean, when I was president, like, it was difficult to even get, like,

00:49:04.220 - 00:49:33.910

Kurt Anderson: resolutions that were passed years before. So, like, a lot of the stuff, like, what I hope is that, like, particularly this MCE report can be put in somewhere so that the students now that are talking about MCE don't need to reinvent the wheel. They can review and think critically about, like, what research was done past, and then how stuff changed, right? Or did we miss something, right? Kurt Anderson: And, yeah. L.X.: You said, Vanessa, is that Vanessa Agbar? Kurt Anderson: Agbar.

00:49:34.370 - 00:50:00.190

L.X.: Perfect. L.X.: And… Yeah, that's a good point about the archives, by the way. I kind of think, L.X.: I think we stopped at, like, 1992 or something like that, as far as, like, the Special Collections and University Archives is concerned, but I'm sure there's stuff hiding. L.X.: In the trenches of Cyber World.

00:50:00.700 - 00:50:37.410

L.X.: or whatever, so… Anybody else you think might be a good person? Kurt Anderson: I mean, I… Those are really the main ones. Kurt Anderson: Bilphena would be. Bilphena and Breya would be your main people. Taylor was obviously the manager of the meeting. They would have a better idea of some of the other people. I mean, you could talk to Sey. Kurt Anderson: So, like, she was a senator, she was, heavily involved in ADC and BSU at the time.

00:50:37.590 - 00:51:13.150

Kurt Anderson: Let's see… Kurt Anderson: I mean, if you are looking for other SGA people, too, you could talk to Michelle Harrison. She was our Chief Justice. She was involved in a lot of some of this stuff, and some of the policy changes. Kurt Anderson: So yeah, I would say Sey, and Michelle, and then Gayon. Kurt Anderson: They should be tagged in SGA in 2015-2016. If not, I'm in contact with both of them, so I can…

00:51:13.430 - 00:51:25.600

Kurt Anderson: Well, I'm not gonna talk to those folks, but I can give you contact information. L.X.: That'd be great. Kurt Anderson: Yeah. Kurt Anderson: That's all that comes to mind.

00:51:28.150 - 00:51:41.290

L.X.: Is there anything else you'd like to share about your time at Towson, or L.X.: what happened during Occupy, or maybe there was, like, L.X.: I don't know, a kind of micro event L.X.: that you'd like to share?

00:51:42.970 - 00:52:10.820

Kurt Anderson: I mean, I think I, like, Kurt Anderson: covered a lot. I mean, I guess, like… Kurt Anderson: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I covered everything as far as, like, the White Student Union and the, like, stuff at Freedom Square. Kurt Anderson: I think… I mean, in retrospect, like, Taylor and I joke about this now, like, what if I just sat at the meeting and said, yes, we are totally aligned, and, like, signed it, so let's go. This is what we're doing here, here, and here, and just read out what we're doing, like, can you help us? And I don't,

00:52:11.100 - 00:52:46.420

Kurt Anderson: like, I, like, but we were so… We were, like, so, like, oh, we can't sign a document because it's, like, a little… And I'm just curious to see how, like, in retrospect, it would have been interesting to see, like, how that would have changed the, like, the thing. Kurt Anderson: Because, like, once we signed it, it was, like, fine. And then we literally, like, Bilphena and, like, Breya and, like, John, we literally were hanging out in the office that night, like, we were talking to them and doing stuff, like, it's not… That's the thing, like, and Korey was, like, in SGA, like, all these people, like, Brandon, like, all these people, and I was like, LOL. L.X.: Yeah. Kurt Anderson: Do you have video, by the way?

00:52:48.000 - 00:53:18.460

L.X.: We have some videos. I didn't find any video on the takeover, though. So yeah, that is lost media. Kurt Anderson: There's a Twitter video that, like, I found a few years later, but… And I'm… Because Taylor and… And I wish I had screen-recorded it, because I can't find it on Twitter, but, like, no… Bilphena doesn't have videos? They don't have videos? L.X.: I could ask more directly, but I feel like they would have mentioned if they had, like, more videos. But yeah, I'll ask them L.X.: if they have more videos.

00:53:18.460 - 00:53:34.750

Kurt Anderson: If you do, I would love to see them. Like, I would… Taylor and I, you can send them to Taylor and I. Well, I will ask. L.X.: Okay. Kurt Anderson: No, actually, I don't think they do, because we talked to… Breya was literally at Taylor's wedding, like, so, like, we're, like, joking now, like, 10 years later. Kurt Anderson: yeah.

00:53:35.120 - 00:54:02.280

L.X.: Yeah, if there's videos, they'll be posted on, we're doing a digital exhibit, so they'll be posted on the landing page for that. L.X.: Yeah, I would actually be interested if they have any personal videos as well. L.X.: But yeah, unfortunately with, like, L.X.: Twitter, a lot of people, like, shut down their accounts, or delete posts, or whatnot, so, you know, there's very limited control over that, you know?

00:54:05.510 - 00:54:39.610

L.X.: Yeah, that's all the questions I have. L.X.: for you today. Well, actually, I do have one. So, you did mention that, you know, L.X.: in retrospect, you wish you would have known, like, what would have happened if you had just gone ahead and signed the demands right then and there. Is that a regret of yours at all? Kurt Anderson: No, I mean, at this point in my life, I try not to, like, live life with regrets, and so that's the information that I had at that time. That enabled the learning that I… At that time, that enabled me to be the person [unintelligible], but definitely not a regret. It's just, like,

00:54:39.730 - 00:55:13.400

Kurt Anderson: funny to think about, like, so I… Because it's like, we already knew everything was coming, so, yeah, I don't know, yeah, I don't know if… I'm sure Taylor said something similar to you about that, because, I mean, I just remember we were, like, we were stressed, like, we cannot send stuff, blah blah blah, see what I mean? And I'm literally texting across to, like, Kurt Anderson: you know,. Kurt Anderson: like, administration across, across the room, and they're like, oh, and, like, the Chief of Police is there, like, every… It's like, oh my… And it's like, those employees feel like, oh, it's crazy. L.X.: Well,

00:55:13.610 - 00:55:37.010

L.X.: thank you so much for your time today. That's all the questions I have for you. L.X.: Really appreciate your insight and your willingness to share. L.X.: what you went through, especially as, like, a white person. L.X.: You know, I think it's critical for us to, like, keep reviewing, like, events like this in our lives,

00:55:37.140 - 00:55:59.140

L.X.: and wanting to make change happen, so L.X.: thanks so much for your time, and I really appreciate it. Kurt Anderson: Thank you so much, L.X. I appreciate you bearing with me, as I bounce around, but good luck! Hopefully I didn't create too much work for you, so… L.X.: You know what, even if you gave me work, it's fine.

00:55:59.860 - 00:56:29.350

Kurt Anderson: Well, I appreciate you. Thank you so much, and Ashley, nice to see you. Have a great rest of your day, y'all. And if you need anything else, let me know. I'll try to get you… I'll send an email to Gayon and CC both of you. Kurt Anderson: And then I'll reply back to Kurt Anderson: the chain with Chris, then add you all to see if we can get some of the SGA archives Kurt Anderson: as well. I'm on the Alumni Association, so I'm on campus a lot. So, if you need help tracking stuff down.

00:56:33.320 - 00:56:41.160

L.X.: Thank you so much, I appreciate that. Kurt Anderson: Okay, well you have a good rest of your day, y'all. L.X.: You too. Todd-Diaz, Ashley: You too.

00:56:41.530 - 00:56:41.890

L.X.: Bye.