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this interview is being conducted in the Dean's conference room in the College of Liberal Arts on the Towson University campus. This is part of a Siris of interviews comprising the Turf, a aural history project conceived and supported by the Towson University Retired Faculty Association with generous

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support from the dean of the College of Liberal Arts. This interview, as well as others in this Siris, are available in the Towson University archives. I'm speaking today with Dr H. George Hawn, professor of English and specialists in 18th century British literature here at Towson University.

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At the time of this interview, Dr Hahn is entering its 55th year, a za member of the Towson University faculty. Good afternoon, George. Good afternoon, Don. 55 years of service and counting to the same academic institution. It's remarkable milestone, although there are a number of people

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in your college that have done the same thing. You guys must really like it here. Uh, but the fact that you're also born here in Baltimore make sure story even more interesting and unique. I was born a 16 25 ST Paul street, which is just a

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block short block north off Penn Station and my first memories because I was born in 1942 were off the war, Um, soldiers, sailors, Marines getting on and off the train to their next to the next post. Um, signs in the windows. Uh, blue star mothers. There

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was a gold star mother Mother of it, dead servicemen. Eso it was was an active place. Although I should say, I was told I never saw the man one block north in 1700 block Alger hiss lived, uh, over on interesting. Over around the reservoir. Whittaker Chambers,

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who had been editor and editor at a Times famous for the pumpkin papers during the McCarthy hearings. His name then was very much in the news. My first memories were of the war, uh, five pictures of myself and uniforms that my uncle's sent me. Uh, so

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I guess I was born into that. Everything you comic books, movies you'd see s so I don't know. I e guess, uh, by osmosis. Although they got into me early, and I became fascinated by it. Um, And to me, it's a paradox that how could something

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as destructive as war produce something as aesthetic as a polar a novel or a play for that, for that matter. And so, uh, Asai say the paradoxes is a, um isn't is interesting to me. What was it like growing up in 19 fifties Baltimore? Well, at

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that at that, By 1949 after the war, the family had moved. We moved to not far from here. Um, way lived opposite one of the first houses opposite a farm on. It was an idyllic kind of kind of childhood. It was a time when you didn't,

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uh you didn't, uh, have a play date. You could go out. You get on your bike in the summer right away. And that comes with lunch that your mother made not come back until supper time. No, no thought of kidnappings, child child abuse or anything like

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that. Every what really sticks in my mind, though, is that every, uh, the neighborhood was very close when the neighborhood grew. You knew everybody. And and every in everything, there's only one car, if that in every family. So people were pretty much, uh, pretty much stationary.

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Uh, a telling point for me about that was, uh I ran. I ran through the next door neighbor's flower a bit, and he came out and caught me. Son, come over here. And then he'd report me to the higher court of my father. But, son, uh,

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Hillary probably was probably right. It takes a takes. A village, uh, you had you had entire, uh, set of allies. Did did parents. And so the kids were kept pretty much in line. It's sort of a golden on idyllic time for May. I've read that your

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father was postal manager and that your family on the bar, at least, uh, when you were born, called the House of Han. What do you remember about the house of Hans? Got a great name. E was just before I when I went back to the office,

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I was writing the section in this on just that, um, it was Ah, it was a It was a bar and rental space was three stories high at Washington and Jefferson Street. Uh, my family's German on duh. The person really responsible for it was my, uh,

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was my great great grandmother. She started it in the late 18 late 18, 18, 90 years or, uh, something like that in any case, Um, she she built the built the business and pitched it to Germans ball in just foot in Baltimore had the highest percentage.

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I read off a German population of any city in the country, chiefly because Baltimore was on the Bremen line directly from Germany. And many of the Germans who came stayed stayed here, so she would She had a bar and restaurant on the first floor. The second

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floor. She had a, um uh, these floors were about half a block long. She would rent that two German gymnastic groups and Dominic singing singing groups and the third floor she'd rent for parties and weddings and so on. And she, uh, eventually the whole operation when

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she made enough money to buy to buy 91 houses. Um, that she that she rented, Um, but the business and everything fell apart. God, I could have been a rich fell apart in the twenties when Prohibition came in. Uh, so the bar business went, And then

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in the thirties came the Depression, when the renters couldn't pay their rent. So everything was sold and the House of Han was knocked down in 19 this year 2009. Uh, yeah. Way. No family no longer owned a liquor store. Bought it. Are you an only child

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or did you have siblings? No, I have. Ah, brother. Four years younger. Where does he do now? He He's retired. Hey, will be retiring in January. Hey, worked. He works all of his life. Attack the Social Security. Did you, ah, attend public or private schools? I

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want toe parochial schools. I want Thio, ST Phillips and James, uh, for the first few grades. And then when we moved in 49 I went to the Immaculate Conception and in Towson. What kind of student were you? Well, let me say I want to honor in

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chemistry or anything else. And in high school, I did. When my my pride is, uh, winning my only honors or winning letters and soccer and baseball. Well, that was accomplishment. When did you become interested in literature? Did it happen in high school? Yeah, it really did.

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You know, that's a good I never even thought of that question, but I think it was the The senior year of High school had always been interested in history. Uh, but then I had a literature teacher, uh, in the English class and in the another English

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class I took, and he really got me interested to it. But I didn't really changed to. I was a history major when I went to college, until I saw Boy coming down the hall with a book under his arm. I asked, What's that? And there's a

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novel by Dickins. I said, You get credit for reading novels. So I quickly became an English major. You graduated from high school in 1959 and then you matriculated to ST Mary's College in Emmitsburg. And I assume that because it was a Catholic school, you've been to

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parochial schools and they got you interested in it? Well, no, I wasn't interested in it all. Really. I wanted to go to the Naval Academy. Um uh, but because I already told you my relevant history and chemistry and physics, there was no better. And though I

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had on the verge of a appointment, I had a cousin there and he said, You can't do a chemistry. You ought to forget it because you'll bailout. And I did so that my father was angry on. I went to Mount ST Mary's because he told me

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to e bade him mhm. Well, according to your C V, you received a bachelor of arts degree in 1963 63 63. Yeah, on a mate with a major in English and in a minor in philosophy. What were your career goals at that stage of your life,

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boy? Um, I had written for Calvert Hall's paper in high school and for the Mounts mounts paper. A reporter for all four years in each. So I was very interested in writing. I got a little job while I was a senior writing for the country paper

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up there. Little little column. Um, and so, um, I thought about going into journalism. I applied at the sun and I got a job as, ah, I was offered a job, I should say, as a sports sports writer. But then I got I got a new

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offer from I had applied to the University of Maryland, and they gave me, offered me $2000. Oh, assistant ship so and a chance to get a degree. So I I took that. And what was that? What was the degree going to be in. Oh, English, English,

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English. Yeah. So I mean, it's interesting because my first job was as a sportswriter myself. Oh, yeah, in college. And, uh, I just I was interested in journalism. But then I realized that maybe that wasn't my Well, I mean, I I have still still still right.

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And I looked at your op ed pieces, and I thought, Well, this guy is really a journalist as much as he is, you know? Uh ah, a new English professor. It's an inch, which I've always had. Yeah, it's very interesting. So I was a little unclear

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about the master's degrees. There were two master's degrees involved on They came, I guess, in succession. Your first was at the University of Maryland and you studied satire? Um, no, I was interested in in in that, uh, but when I when I went there, I ask

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I ask the obvious question where the jobs in this field, uh, I got good advice is everybody goes into American literature. Uh, what part of British literature do you think? Well, nobody goes in. Probably nobody goes into medieval and 18th century, so well, they take 18th

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century like a dating game he hooked me up with with the 18th century. And uh huh, What came after that was Tom Jones and Fielding. And so you have two masters degrees ones. Just Emma and the others. M l a. Uh, Andi. So the first one

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was the m A. And that was in 1966. You graduated 60 66? Yes. And then the M l. A was the history of ideas in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Yes, that was in 1969 right? That's what Hopkins Okay, that was at Hopkins. And thing was

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curious to me is how you were able Thio go into a second masters. A tie that time? Because, you know, a zai, I think mentioned to you earlier, uh, I was going. I was finishing my masters in 1969 my draft board was waiting for me at

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the door. Uh, they had been calling me up every year, and then they would give me, uh, you know, let me off. I'd write him and tell him please let me finish finals and that they'd let me skid for another year, and they'd always call me

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Oppa files time on. And finally they basically said, No, boy, your country needs you on. Duh. So I don't know. Did you have any trouble with draft board? I didn't. It's interesting. When I was in when I was in college, we did not have an ROTC

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or in ROTC with PLC Marines. So I was in that I was in a platoon leaders leaders class. Um, but I got while it was still when I was a senior, I dropped out of that. That was fine with the with the Marines, and fine for

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me, because had I gone in, I would have been food for the fish of the Mekong eso. Once I got in the master, the the first Masters degree. I was here almost right away. And I was Yes, I was. So I was exempt. So there's a

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had a 10 year gap that I really couldn't figure things out between your your last Masters degree and your PhD from Johns Hopkins. Your M l. A. At Johns Hopkins and your PhD in Maryland. Uh, what would you do? Your teaching here at that time? Okay.

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That whole time, did you come here with a master's degree. Yes. Yeah, but in in the in those days, um, it very few people, at least in my department, had had the PhD on, but was Look, I was very, very lucky because of because of that.

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And so, you know, I moved along teaching and began picking up courses as I as I went and ultimately got enough to write the dissertation and get the degree. When you first arrived at Towson State College in the fall of 1964 the undergraduate enrollment was about

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3600. Today, 55 years later, it exceeds 20,000. Ah, how is this exponential growth impacted your teaching philosophy and the manner in which you approach Teaching that Z, that's a puzzle for me. A puzzling question. I I mean, quick answers. I try to muddle muddle through it.

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I mean, comparing in general general stereotype students then and students now, when in 1919, 65 well, uh, midway through the 19 seventies, every student in the university had to take, had to take four English courses. They think the president 102 and then Then there was, of

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course, one of three that have to take which trained them in writing the term paper. Then they had to take the two sections of British literature Wolf, the Virginia Woolf. So they had 44 court. They had to take four courses. Um, they they were plugged in.

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Not that many students I read. Would Goto would go to college as they do as they do now? So the students who did were more focused than they are now. There were fewer career choices they had to make then, uh, eso what they were then. I

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think I've said this and what they are now. I think the common denominator evolves House and students that they're really in earnest, a group of young people. They give you everything they can. Not everything you want, but they give you everything that they can with with

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a few a few exceptions. Um, so far as writing is concerned, they were They were crackerjack at grammar. Then they're not. Now, um there there, I think in general, though, they're better writers now because they know more. They could make mawr illusions name more, more toe

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popular popular culture. But still, I didn't even see that in the in the early in the early days. What do you attribute that declining grammar, too? Well, I don't think it's that I don't think it's, uh, taught, um, very much anymore. I mean, very, very phrase

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grammar school is gone with the wind. Um, and, uh, it's not this grammar, but it's punctuation. It's mechanics. Uh, they just I think I don't know whether they've gotten gotten to be better writers. Um, because they're not as worthy as they used to bay. Largely, I

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think, because of tweets. Oh, um, uh, the earlier students, I mean, we continually crossing out wordiness. But I don't do that nearly as much anymore. In grammar grammar school, you have to be tested. Askew died Graham descendants on the on the board, and I didn't like

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it at first. My father said to me one night, Look, e, think of it as an erect, your erector set. You got your main clauses on this things. Horizontal line. You've got the subordinate clauses here and the phrases there that light it up. What was the

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class size like when you first got to Towson? I'm thinking probably depends on the course, but well, because all the courses that I taught early on were required courses there. 35 Has that changed today? Well, now that we've tripled in size in terms of the elective

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courses, yes, my department has a hard time even keeping courses, uh, running because of because of that. But the core courses always make, uh, one of them that I teach is, uh, writing argument. But because it's a core course, uh, it does make gets his 21

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required students. What about social interactions with with your colleagues? Uh, in other disciplines. I mean, the fact that the university was small at first when you you came here, Uh, you probably knew everybody. I mean, I assume you were in Stephen's Hall and Stevens and Richmond

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Richmond one year. And so you probably ate lunch with people from all these different disciplines and even sharing an office with him. Uh, I showed an office with a philosopher one time with a phys ed of teacher one time. One time with the historian. You're right.

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That was the mix was wonderful. It was truly collegial in that way. Yeah. I mean, I remember being in things like the gourmet club, you know, you go to sporting events like it down at birth, a call and, uh, you know, you'd see other faculty there

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and the kids and spouses and, uh, you know, you just interacted a lot. But now things have changed quite a bit because it's gotten so big and we're also busy. Well, one big thing you said you were in the gourmet club. I would never even be

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considered for admission to that the way I cook. But originally, do you think I did the cooking? Well, that's what originally it was called the Faculty Wives Club on. Then Dan Jones of English got into it. It was a master chef. Eso it changed the, uh,

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changed. They changed the name. At that point we started. Ah, Group called. Probably probably know of them. The redoubtable don. So we don't even come to one or two of your meetings? Well, way want you and more. Uh uh. That was back in 1989 and now

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you know, four people show up. It's normally there people from the Speaker's department eso that there's no long, longer that cross pollination of ideas that we once once had when I came here uh, I think only two people in my department were married. And so, you

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know, you didn't have kids to take care of. You didn't have to get home to a husband or a wife. You are freer to do things I can remember. There would be, uh, there would be gatherings of different people's houses. And lots would come not only

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from one department, but from other departments as well. Um, but now that people are coming into the profession at an older age, they you know, they have other commitments in the half century that you've been more than half century that you've been in Towson, Uh, you've

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gone are served under seven presidents Earl Hawkins, Jim Fisher, Hoke Smith, Mark Perkins, Marvin Loeschke, POB Keret and Kim Schatzow. Uh, did you get to know these administrators on a personal level? Some of them I did. Jim Fisher for Earl Hawkins. I I did not. He

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was the first. He was just going out. Yes. I'll tell you another story about that. And if you're interested later, but eso I barely, uh unless it's when you don't wanna tell on us. Well, consider the footnote. My first year here. And this was the case

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with every member of in English department across the country. The new person got to advise the yearbook. Okay, so I was advisor Thio to the U two tower. That goes my first year. And I was very pleased with the book when it came out of the

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end of the year. Um and in September, my telephone rang. It was the President Hawkins secretary. The president would like to see you see, even know who I am on. So I venture about what about the yearbook. Alright. So set up a time. I flattered myself,

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says he praised me about the wonderful one of a yearbook, and I walk when I was ushered into his office, told man sitting behind the desk with the book open open in front of me glared at May. He didn't tell me to sit down long finger.

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He pointed There are no Negroes in this book. That's why I think there are no Negroes on this campus. The truly the only black person I knew was John. Do you remember John Gwynne? No. John Gwyn, uh, ran the print shop or the administration building or

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yes, Uh, huh? But students know. Maybe they were here and there were a few students, but I didn't see any. And I think that za story that illustrates, you know, the direction Towson has The Towson has come. Do you have a favorite president? Uh, I I

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think I had two favorite, uh, Jim Fisher and Hook Smith. Very different guy kinds of people, but But I did like them both. Talk. Talk with him. Hey, drop in on them. They call you up. It was with anybody. I wouldn't ask you to tell me

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your least favorite, but I know that in 2002 you expressed misgivings about Dr Perkins. His push for individualized education, something. Think you called time patently impractical. What were your concerns? Well, he was He was He was talking about teaching individually to every student. Uh, I mean,

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I found find that impossible. Um, I think the hidden curriculum at any and a university is the different styles of of teachers lecture here, seminar their discussion section one on one tutorial. All of that, and hey, wanted some kind of prescription that would have taken all

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day to meet individually with students. So I mean, I just thought that was a a silly idea. Well, fortunately, his pension for remodeling the university mansion, uh, gave him a short tenure. E was on that committee to find him to find him a house. Hope what

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I'm about to say. It's not libelous. Uh, but in any case, um, you're writing right around the car, and he'd be shown houses, They one of the house in the city, uh, to show the Towson had a commitment and and agreed to pay taxes city taxes,

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even though it wouldn't have had tend to, in any case, drive up in front of, ah, house and look at it. How about how about this one? That's the vice president's house, Not a president's house. Tribal one had a hierarchal. Yes. Well, that's that's interesting. I

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know that. Well, I've heard all kinds of stories about the remodeling of that house and the issues that it created. Bob Correct. Told me, you know, that he kind of like the house, but, uh, you know, even he, I think, realized it probably was Ah, drain.

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And, uh, so obviously it's gone by the wayside. Well, a great motivation. Great greatest reason I think for buying. Um, buying a house was to fundraise, but there was no parking. Oh, and that created, of course, a real problem for the neighbors who didn't like having

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all these cars on their green streets. Yeah, Zai, I certainly understand that. Why have a multifaceted question for you? Uh, during the late 19 eighties, in the 19 nineties, promotion and Tenure Committee is here, a Towson and around the country started emphasizing the so called Carnegie

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Model of teacher Evaluation, in which college professors we're seeing is balanced on a three legged stool, each of the legs involving either teaching scholarship or service based on your CV. I see that you spent a number of years on the C L A promotion and tenure

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committee. What is your view of the Carnegie model? And did you can conscientiously a strive to accommodate the model? I did. I did. And I think I did much of my discredit. Uh, I didn't agree with it. Uh, but I saw it's the rule here. It's

00:28:45.230 - 00:29:03.440

the way you succeed or don't succeed here. So I I did. I did go along. Did go along with it early on teaching with the only thing I wanted to dio. And that's still for me. The bedrock. Um, I'm I'm weakest. I'm pretty weak, I think.

00:29:03.450 - 00:29:24.490

In service. Um, on. Then, after a point, I began, uh, putting a lot of my time and effort into into into publications. But the publications always nit, I think, um, closely with my teaching. So they're really flip sides of the same same coin. So you've taught

00:29:24.490 - 00:29:45.320

more than 40 courses, academic courses during your career. That's a remarkable. I mean, admittedly, your career has been lengthy, but 40 courses is a lot. Of course, is, uh do you have a favorite? Our favorites. I I like the the 200 level to 21 2. 22

00:29:46.470 - 00:30:04.560

British left from old English through middle English, right on up to the, uh, really, to the early 20th seventh century. That's my life. He said every year. Just about have you altered your approach to teaching and dealing with, uh, students over the course of 55 years.

00:30:06.040 - 00:30:30.420

Oh, sure. Um, I guess the biggest the biggest change is that I'm farm or of a lecturer now, and I think the reason is that I know more. Uh, I tell them at the top of the course. In fact, I put it into my solar bus.

00:30:30.590 - 00:30:49.600

Um, once again, I'm back to these two courses. I keep referring Thio. Uh, this is a lecture. This is a lecture course. Uh, I invite you in any time to come in Thio to talk. I take take five minutes at the beginning of every Any comments

00:30:49.600 - 00:31:10.360

or questions. Well, they never they never come on down. Certainly, lines never formed outside. Majority people come in to talk about bail for or anything else yet I'll still get on the course evaluation. Not enough. Not enough discussion. Well, um, in fact, this year, first time

00:31:10.360 - 00:31:25.340

I did this. I said, um, if you come in and talk with me a couple of times, I'll add three points to your final exam. Nobody's coming to do that. Yeah. So you want the students to to see the picture in the imagery and assemblies and

00:31:25.340 - 00:31:50.320

the metaphors and so on. So there's that translation going on, I think an image that the unit the quark off of Literature yuk working here. Well, the basic unit of sell the whatever that. You know, it comes from the imagination of the writer, um, or a

00:31:50.330 - 00:32:07.010

plane to the imagination of the reader. Like a radio set. Every part center, medium and receiver have to be has to be in in an opening order. And I want to see them. Or at least let them hear me make these translations so that they can

00:32:07.020 - 00:32:25.570

They can see it. What is the relationship, in your estimation between younger, your younger colleagues? Uh, a zit. Come in now. I mean, do you mentor them? And And how do you think they look atyou? I mean, has it been altered as you've gotten older the

00:32:25.580 - 00:32:44.160

way you're treated by your younger car? I think so. Very, very much. So, is it harder for you to relate to them and then to you? I mean, uh, I think I can't speak for them, but it's harder for me. Thio relate. Um, I would I

00:32:44.160 - 00:33:00.840

still do this, but when I was chair, I did this continually. You know, I'd have them into the office, and I'd have them, uh, have them out of the house, um, and encourage them Thio run for this committee or, uh, let me introduce you to someone,

00:33:00.850 - 00:33:21.380

and I think that that worked pretty well. But I guess I could do that more easily because because I was chair. But now you know the face. I'm the old guy in the hall. 1973. The English department went through. Ah, philosophical meltdown. I guess that to

00:33:21.380 - 00:33:41.990

outsiders was sort of reminiscent of the blood feud between the Hatfields and the McCoys. Ah, the inner turmoil ultimately kind of bubbled over on the department, split into an American literature. And, uh, I think wasn't shared by that Dan Jones. Yes, but before that, that was

00:33:41.990 - 00:34:04.260

the second civil war since I was here. The first one occurred my third year here. That was in 1968 when it we in the English department. I mean, I didn't teach these, but the English department taught journalism and speech. Uh, and then, um, a couple of

00:34:04.260 - 00:34:24.700

the the old guard in the department said they don't need any of that. They kicked them out. They kicked the speech and journalistic people out. So whatever is it what was born college of mass communications? That's that. That's right, s So that was the first civil

00:34:24.700 - 00:34:45.160

war. Then the second one was farm. Or, uh, the second one began when a lot of young people were getting getting fired. Uh, non tenured people not getting tenure. They're not getting tenure. In fact, they were being let go well before the tenure, The tenure year.

00:34:45.840 - 00:35:10.570

Um, and it just got it got vicious. Um, between the groups, Dan, Dan Jones was the the most vocal, and thus I think, the leader off of one group. At one point, uh, Dean came in. The dean was the second highest official before we had proved

00:35:10.570 - 00:35:33.060

a provost. Um, and it was Jo Cox was a historian. Joe came in. He said, I I've heard these complaints. He said for years now, and I have but one thing to dio. He said, I'm gonna have to be, uh, um uh, Herod and split the

00:35:33.060 - 00:35:53.510

baby. Uh, e do you know Finn, right? He was the oldest man in the department. Old Finn, right? Was what many of this age we weren't plugged into everything. So it's fin right was sitting in the first row, split the department. Hey, looked What's going on

00:35:53.510 - 00:36:19.760

here? But in any case, the department was split. But in the negotiations. And here's the Dan. Dan Jones was a genius. Well, Dan Jones said, my group will take the take the title, uh, English and American literature. And, um, you could take world literature and linguistics.

00:36:19.770 - 00:36:38.360

Yeah, yes, of course we'll do that. Which meant we got control of the curriculum because it's in English depart. And soon that other side just died out. Well, I had that civil War gone, the going the other way. I wouldn't have been here because when the

00:36:38.360 - 00:36:56.520

10 year vote came up that I was coming up for tenure tenure that year and, um, I had I apparently had made no impression on anybody, and they forgot me. Eso I got When I came back the next year, there was a letter in my box

00:36:56.590 - 00:37:13.130

from the dean saying that I have tenure. I I think I'm the only I think I'm the only faculty member on this campus who does not have the jury tenure. I have de facto tenure e. I missed the vote or they missed me in the vote.

00:37:13.450 - 00:37:32.510

I've taken the liberty to visit your rate, my professor profile and you were overwhelmingly acknowledged as an excellent and highly motivated professor. This said one thing your students consistently grouse about is the fact that you offer courses on Friday mornings beginning at 8 a.m. How did

00:37:32.510 - 00:37:52.030

this temporally quaint behavior become an integral part of the Hawn doctrine? If I'd like to get up early, well, you know what I should tell them? And I can say it now. Young man, Young woman, When I was your age way had classes on Saturday in

00:37:52.030 - 00:38:18.520

college. How would you describe your teaching methodology and your educational philosophy? What I call what I do, a philosophy it's not, uh, my practice is a zay said before the lecture and my lectures. Now I do teach seminars. That's different. But I mainly teach those courses

00:38:18.520 - 00:38:32.880

I've been talking about, and it's a fairly formal lecture. I'll start five minutes. Any questions while they never come. So then I pitch into it. I'll start with. I'll start with an anecdote about the about the reading, and then I'll go into into into the reading,

00:38:32.890 - 00:38:54.210

um, interpreting this, putting questions about that on then, kind of kind of closing. As I watched my watch in time so it z fairly formal. Well rounded. Uh, elector, how good it is. It's another thing, but it is. It is well rounded and onda formal. So

00:38:54.210 - 00:39:15.940

they could take, uh, they could take good notes. In any case. Speaking of change, over the course of your 55 years of 1000 you've witnessed the major cultural shifts in American society, including, but not limited to the women's movement, the sexual revolution, the civil rights movement,

00:39:16.520 - 00:39:37.020

the Vietnam anti war movement and, more recently, the LGBT Q movement. These were national movements, and I wondered if they were discernible here on the Towson campus. No, uh, that's an easy answer. No, they weren't discernible back back then A to all all the faculty and

00:39:37.020 - 00:39:59.500

all the students were one to be in white. Um, two. They were all there was. There was a social equality. There was no incredibly rich people. Um um So there was There was a sameness about it, about it all. And nobody thought and I'll speak for

00:39:59.500 - 00:40:22.590

myself. I never really thought outside the box. Um, that z what it waas Do you remember? This might be illustrative point. Do you remember when we when the faculty helped out at, uh, registration. Yes, I would sit there. This I can remember everybody streaming streaming in.

00:40:22.590 - 00:40:41.710

Students streaming in, some of them coming in with their parents or or the brother and sister with a white. They they look all looked very much the same S o. I was, uh, shock. That shocks too strong a word. I was surprised Amick nicely when I

00:40:41.710 - 00:41:03.750

saw a young girl come in with with a much older man who turned out to be her father. He was dressed in He was just a cover all. He was a farmer, and he was trying to help her choose courses. And way finished that. And he

00:41:03.750 - 00:41:29.240

reached into his pocket and he pulled out. Ah, what a role bankroll. He said, Where do I pay tuition? Uh, S o you know, that was the I tell that story because that was the only really different. Oh, experience I had I had an office in

00:41:29.240 - 00:41:48.010

Linthicum Hall overlooking the beach way. Call it then during those years. And who was he? Hey, was an assistant. Ah, fairly high assistant to Jim Fisher. Anyway, he came in and, uh, knocked at the door and asked if he could come in. He wanted to look

00:41:48.010 - 00:42:03.080

at something. Is translated what? He looked like a spy and had a camera. And he looked out my window, which overlooked the beach, As I said, and there was some kind of rally going on out there he was. He was taking pictures off it so that

00:42:03.090 - 00:42:26.360

that's what I remember. But even when you bring those names up, that really was the only on campus, um, rally or that I I remember that I saw that I remember that Freedom Square here that we currently have thes students were writing all kinds of things

00:42:26.360 - 00:42:41.650

in those blackboards down there, which is a good idea. I mean, you know, it's a good outlet for them. I suspect, like the LGBT Cues movement. That's that's going on right now. Really, Uh, there's a lot of students expressing themselves down there, and I don't know

00:42:41.650 - 00:43:12.840

how that affects the overall attitude of the campus very directly. Just last week, the LGBT in my in the writing argument course, um, I had, um, I had continually marked as incorrect the disagreement between a pronoun and a noun. For example, um the, uh to use

00:43:12.840 - 00:43:38.180

the standard he pronoun to refer. And she came up to me after class and she said, Uh, that's not correct And I said, Well, whether it's correct or not, it's logical. You can't use they to refer to a singular antecedent. And she listened and she came

00:43:38.180 - 00:44:01.990

back The next class she had a She had copied pages from the from the Oxford English Dictionary, which showed that early on, back in the Middle Ages, Yeah, it was all right to do that, to use they with a singular, singular and a scene. And though

00:44:01.990 - 00:44:20.170

I explained to her, uh, yes, but the O E. D is a descriptive dictionary describes what the language is. It doesn't say this or that is right or wrong. Um, so I said, But I see I see you. I see your point. Um, and she had

00:44:20.170 - 00:44:40.100

done so much on that. Then I counted it as another argument. I gave her a nay on it because she did. She she had done a fine, fine job. So she's, uh, dislodged that pronoun antecedent. Um, question from my I no longer I would know I

00:44:40.110 - 00:45:01.580

do no longer market wrong. Based on an examination of your CV, you have published five books and annotated bibliography ease several dozen scholarly articles, as well as more than 100 scholarly book reviews and editorials and op ed columns describe what's involved in being an active scholar.

00:45:01.590 - 00:45:26.400

A zit relates to your discipline. English literature of well, e have to look at that that question or answer that question in two ways. Um, it's It's ah, it's credited here in my in my department, A Z I'm sure in your department and every department and

00:45:26.410 - 00:45:42.870

article is is credited. That's not to say that everybody in the department even understands the article because it's in a different sub field. So you're kind of saluted a za rite of a rite of passage, a za rite of a rite of passage. But the rial

00:45:42.880 - 00:46:04.220

of, uh, the real credit comes from, you know, an email you might get from somebody in another campus. Who's read it? Uh, you know, I must say I not not much of that, but when something like that comes, I'm I'm gratified. I'm proud. But around here

00:46:04.230 - 00:46:18.200

No, I don't say that for myself, for just about everybody e mean I can I could look it or C scholarship. Other people in my department have produced. And I look at the journal of the title of the Journal, and that's pretty good journal, and I'll

00:46:18.200 - 00:46:37.770

congratulate the person. But I you know, I have little expertise and maybe even less interest. There's more efficient than fusion in every department. I mean, some departments or even speaking different languages. Uh, the economics department here. Some are heavily statistics. Some articles and books are heavily

00:46:37.770 - 00:46:58.280

statistical. Others are more narrative to those of us in sciences. It seems that all you need to do research and liberal arts is motivation. Ah, quiet office access to a good library and a reliable laptop. I think you're right. No, I agree with that. I do

00:46:58.280 - 00:47:21.390

agree with that. I don't need a lot of equipment. I don't have to check my findings out with some other scientists. Or, uh, I'm sorry. E don't know. I've just found it to be a pretty insular, uh um, kind of job in that way. I mean,

00:47:21.390 - 00:47:41.080

teaching aside, of course, but the scholarship is pretty insular. In 1977 you and your colleague in English. Carl Bam. The third published a book entitled Towson. A Pictorial History of a Maryland Town. It stands in contrast to most of the other scholarship that you've produced. How

00:47:41.080 - 00:48:04.720

did this collaboration come about? Well, uh, it's not. It's not really scholarship. Its's a coffee table book. Um, that we had great fun, uh, writing. Um, but I was contacted by this small publisher donning publisher, uh, in in Virginia because they were doing, uh, do a

00:48:04.720 - 00:48:25.320

Siris of books on town. American towns, namely mainly east East coast Coast towns. Um, so, uh, um, they wanted they wanted the book on Baltimore. And I'm Carl and I shared an office and I mentioned it to him. I said, uh, I would like to go

00:48:25.320 - 00:48:44.590

in and doing a pictorial history of Baltimore. He said, That's that Zbig job. He said, How about Towson? E tells you know where they like that. So I contacted them. They said, Sure, that'll be fine. Thompson would be fine, so we decided to do it. It

00:48:44.590 - 00:49:03.690

was a wonderful experience. It took us two years both working, working at it. As I said, it was fun. Fun to dio. We have to go out and meet people who share their lend us pictures. They had manuscript they had from their family or or neighborhood.

00:49:03.700 - 00:49:22.990

Uh, it was one. It was wonderful. We had a good time at it. Over the course of your career, you've received numerous awards of recognition that include being named an extraordinary Maryland college professor by the Baltimore Sun in 2002. Well, you know, I have to say

00:49:23.000 - 00:49:39.130

that could that could have been published by about by lots about lots of people. But I think when did they come? It came out at the time that Perkins was making his comments and he was getting a lot of bad press in the papers and on

00:49:39.130 - 00:50:05.780

TV. Uh, and I think something well, the sun was going to was doing a serious. Supposedly, it was going to be a yearly Siri's to find three professors on Maryland campuses, uh, in in different areas in different areas. And they assigned reported that the reporter came.

00:50:06.360 - 00:50:27.700

He missed only one class for the for the semester. He watched, and they did that Teoh to other people. Um, so that's that's how that happened. I mean, why they why they Why they chose may? I don't know, but I tend to think because of some

00:50:27.700 - 00:50:51.080

things I might have said about the President. Yes. You received the Mackie Journalism Award for editing. All ahead full. A Navy league of the U. S. Newsletter. I was I was there its editor for 14 for 14 years. Uh, I got, uh I got it. Well,

00:50:51.080 - 00:51:09.310

I had joined. I joined. I was a member of the Navy Navy League, and it was a member off, uh, Navy League of the U. S. Baltimore chapter and also the Naval, the Naval Institute. I've always been I've always been interested that because so much of

00:51:09.310 - 00:51:30.670

my my, my my scholarly stuff was on Naval Naval War and there was all that itch that I hadn't scratched about not going to the Naval Academy s o. I got involved in the two groups, but particularly the Navy league of the U. S. Uh, and

00:51:30.670 - 00:51:49.460

as I said, I just, uh they asked me to edit there their newsletter and I did I'd have to gather articles about this or that. Andi, I would always right one. And sometimes I write two columns. You were the recipient of the President's Award for Distinguished

00:51:49.460 - 00:52:08.950

Service to the university in 1989 i a z. I've said before lots of people could could could have done that. And I I think I think because I've been here so, so long and even then 89 had been here a while. It was a kind of

00:52:08.950 - 00:52:28.030

a curiosity, e. I mean, I'm very proud of it. No doubt about no doubt about that, but And I really mean this Aziz, with that article, and there's lots of people could be could be each other chosen before we close. Is there anything that we haven't

00:52:28.030 - 00:52:43.840

covered that you'd like to discuss? No. I think you You've covered all more than I could have. Could have thought about asked asking touch every base. George, I've enjoyed talking with you today and I wish you good health and the very best in the future. Thanks

00:52:43.840 - 00:52:51.190

again for participating in the Turf Oral History Project. Don, thank you very much for organizing it and putting up with May