00:00:03.470 - 00:00:36.370

L.X.: So, again, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today, Cody. My name is L.X. Hammond. L.X.: And I'm interested in talking with you today as part of the Unearthing Towson's History and Occupy Towson project, which seeks to uncover and understand the gaps in the archival record for Black student activism on campus. L.X.: We're very much interested in hearing about your time L.X.: the Towerlight, and how you experienced Occupy Towson through your own perspective.

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L.X.: I also want to verify that you received the release form, and that you're okay with us recording our conversation as an oral history, and then we also might take notes as you're speaking. Cody Boteler: Yep, all that is fine. L.X.: Great. L.X.: So we have approximately 11 questions to ask you about your time and experience at Towson University 10 years ago during the events of Occupy Towson.

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L.X.: And do you have any questions before we start? Cody Boteler: No. We are good to go. L.X.: Cool, so, please share some details about your time at TU, like years at Towson, or major organizations you're a part of, that sort of thing. Cody Boteler: Cool, okay. So, I was at Towson University from 2013 through 2017. I was in the Honors College, and I did a major in… I think the programming has changed now, but at the time it was

00:01:35.300 - 00:02:11.110

Cody Boteler: mass communication with a concentration in, journalism and new media, and I had a minor in environmental science and studies. And then being in the Honors College, the requirements of that are kind of like having a second minor. Cody Boteler: And then, when I wasn't in class, the only organization that I really was a part of was the Towerlight. That ended up taking up most of my time on campus. Cody Boteler: And so I worked at the Towerlight. All four years, I was a student. Cody Boteler: I…

00:02:11.900 - 00:02:34.770

Cody Boteler: I think it was, like, during, you know, that, like, syllabus week, that first week of classes that I kind of walked into the office for the first time. I was like, Cody Boteler: What's going on here? Cody Boteler: And, you know, by… Cody Boteler: I think by the end of that year, I was the news editor, and then by my

00:02:34.890 - 00:02:50.840

Cody Boteler: sophomore year, I was made senior editor, which was, like, the second in command. Cody Boteler: And then I had that Cody Boteler: job for my second half of my sophomore year, and for all of my junior year. Cody Boteler: Which I believe, if the timeline is correct, that's when

00:02:51.130 - 00:03:14.930

Cody Boteler: Occupy Towson happened, and then my senior year, so 2016-2017, I was the editor-in-chief. L.X.: Awesome. Well, I mentioned, like, the Towerlight... L.X.: It's something that is big enough where you get pretty busy with all of the tasks and the writing and the reporting. Cody Boteler: Yeah,

00:03:15.170 - 00:03:40.950

Cody Boteler: when I started, we were doing two print issues a week, so it was really, really busy, and then by the time I left, we switched to just a weekly. Cody Boteler: I don't remember when we switched from twice a week to just weekly. It may have been Cody Boteler: the middle of my sophomore year, but I really don't remember when that switch happened. Cody Boteler: But yeah, those print production days were, like,

00:03:41.700 - 00:04:12.150

Cody Boteler: all-day things. I want to say they were on Cody Boteler: Mondays? They used to be, like, Sundays and Wednesdays. Cody Boteler: And then it shifted, because it went to once a week, but those were, you know, those were all-day things that were in the Towerlight office, getting stories loaded into Adobe InDesign, laying out the pages, printing them out, proofreading them. Cody Boteler: laying them out again, giving them sent to the printer, all that stuff. Oh, that's something else I did. My freshman year, I only did it for…

00:04:13.130 - 00:04:32.970

Cody Boteler: Excuse me. Cody Boteler: Maybe a few months. But my freshman year, I was also, I delivered the paper to its different places, like, around campus, and in Cody Boteler: Towson and the areas north of campus, so that would be, you know, get up really early on the days it came out. Cody Boteler: Pick them up from the loading dock at the Union, drive around.

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Cody Boteler: Drop them places so people could pick it up. L.X.: Wow. L.X.: So getting right into the Occupy Towson movement, L.X.: how or when did you become aware of Occupy?

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Cody Boteler: That's a good question. You know, I think, around that time, Cody Boteler: you know, there were other campus movements happening where similar, you know, students were Cody Boteler: marching and protesting and petitioning their administrations, and… You know, there were… Cody Boteler: Let's see, this would have been after Freddie Gray, right? So there were

00:05:20.120 - 00:05:36.060

Cody Boteler: some student activists that, like, I had met through the Freddie Gray protests. Cody Boteler: And, you know, I was kind of aware of their work. Cody Boteler: You know, the year… I guess it was just the year prior, maybe two years prior? Cody Boteler: No, just the year prior.

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Cody Boteler: You know, so I, you know, not to be like, oh, they were on my radar, but, like, I knew who these protests… You know, I knew John Gillespie, I knew Bilphena, I knew Korey. I knew, kind of, that they were big Cody Boteler: players on campus. They were very active on campus. Cody Boteler: And so there was some talk of, like, student protests happening, and I know Cody Boteler: the one that day that turned into occupying, I don't

00:06:07.410 - 00:06:46.220

Cody Boteler: think I knew ahead of time that it was gonna turn from protest into marching to the administration building. Cody Boteler: I really don't know if the organizers told Cody Boteler: Carley Milligan, who was the editor-in-chief at the time, and who was also there that night. Cody Boteler: I don't know if she knew ahead of time, or if we all just, like, pivoted immediately. I think what happened, actually, was the protest was happening, and Carley got a text, and we, like, scrambled, but I don't remember. But it was, like, that day. And then I remember, you know, okay, that day,

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Cody Boteler: I guess we're going to the admin building and gonna see what's happening. Cody Boteler: My memory of it was that, I had a very, like, Cody Boteler: oh, shit, here we go, experience of it. You know, I was, I was not, Cody Boteler: aware of it as a concrete plan ahead of time.

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L.X.: then there was also the SGA takeover the day before. Cody Boteler: Oh, yes there was! That's right. Thank you. Yes there was, that's right. I think I do remember that. Cody Boteler: Let's see if I can find it. Cody Boteler: Yeah, I remember that.

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L.X.: So there were, there have been a couple people who have said, you know, they weren't sure if, L.X.: you know, the SGA takeover was just kind of, like, a distraction. L.X.: And then, to go into the actual sit-in, to the L.X.: President's office, like, that was just

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L.X.: kind of something to distract the admin, I guess. Did you know anything about that? Cody Boteler: I did not, but it would… I mean, you know, that would be smart planning. Cody Boteler: But now I don't remember… Oh, okay, so yeah, it was, like, the semester after Cody Boteler: Freddie Gray.

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Cody Boteler: That's right. L.X.: Yep. Cody Boteler: Yeah. Cody Boteler: Yeah, no, I…

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Cody Boteler: Oh, that's right, yeah, looking at this picture. Yeah, no, so I remember the SGA takeover thing Cody Boteler: happening, Cody Boteler: But, no, I mean, I can't say I was, like, read in on that or anything. But I certainly would not be surprised if that was the case. If the idea was, you know, hey, we'll go to the SGA, we will, Cody Boteler: you know, do this and kind of pull the attention over that way, and then, you know, surprise admin all at once.

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Cody Boteler: Would, you know, I would not be Cody Boteler: surprised to hear about that, but that's not something that I knew about or anything. L.X.: Sure. L.X.: And what was your experience like working with the organizers of Occupy?

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Cody Boteler: I'm trying to remember, because, you know, there was some… Cody Boteler: So as a reporter, working with organizers is Cody Boteler: messy, is maybe the word I would use. I don't know if that's quite the right word. But… Cody Boteler: you know, for a lot of reasons, protest organizers keep things close to the chest, they are not always

00:10:02.370 - 00:10:26.560

Cody Boteler: responsive to media, because they have other stuff going on. So, you know, very, very understandably. Cody Boteler: And so, like, I remember… I have one memory of trying to track down Cody Boteler: a couple of the organizers after… I think it was after the Freddie Gray March, Cody Boteler: where they were part of a group leading people

00:10:28.810 - 00:11:04.340

Cody Boteler: from, like, the various university campuses down through downtown Baltimore. Cody Boteler: And I think it was, like, the day after, trying to track somebody down, I remember, like, driving around campus, being like, where are you? Where are you? Like, you said we could talk now, and, you know, I got a voicemail that was like, we are in the Union. And it's like, okay, where? That's a huge building. Cody Boteler: So, you know, there was some of that, like, chaotic scrappiness. Cody Boteler: But then during actual, like, the actual sit-in, and the actual, like, demonstration at the admin building,

00:11:04.980 - 00:11:21.530

Cody Boteler: we actually had a really positive example. Cody Boteler: Er, sorry, a really positive experience. Cody Boteler: You know, especially compared to, Cody Boteler: you know, I think there were some of the local TV stations that were there, and they were, like, kicked out.

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Cody Boteler: You know, the students didn't want them there, so the administration took them out, and then the students were like, but the Towerlight can stay, because they knew us, and we had worked with them before. Cody Boteler: So, you know, I remember… I have very clear memories of, like, Cody Boteler: being in the room, being in the, like, the president's Cody Boteler: suite, where they were all… Where the sit-in was happening, and just being like, yeah, we are here, we're just gonna watch. And there was even a part, a point where

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Cody Boteler: I remember, Cody Boteler: you know, it was during the back and forth, the negotiations between the admin and the protesters. Cody Boteler: And there was a point where the protesters wanted to, like, huddle up and discuss something. Cody Boteler: And they were, like,

00:12:09.940 - 00:12:38.910

Cody Boteler: they were very open with us about it. They were like, okay, wait, you guys, us, meaning the Towerlight, there were 3 of us there, I think. Maybe 4. Cody Boteler: They're like, you can stay here if this session, like, if this part of the negotiation is, like, off the record. Cody Boteler: And we're like, yeah, sure, fine. You know, and that was actually really… Cody Boteler: It was useful to, you know, because we didn't have to enter and leave the room a bunch of times, we didn't have to leave the building a bunch of times, and I think it really demonstrated that

00:12:39.350 - 00:13:05.370

Cody Boteler: trust that we had Cody Boteler: built, over the last, I don't know, 6 or 7 months of kind of following the work of some of these organizers and what they had done on campus. Cody Boteler: That's my, like, biggest memory of what it was like to, like, work with them was that Cody Boteler: the organizers trusted the Towerlight in that instance to go off the record and to just be there and watch.

00:13:05.830 - 00:13:38.620

Cody Boteler: And then even to be like, okay, we're back on the record, like, when they were ready to, like, present stuff to the administration again. Cody Boteler: That was… It was nice, you know, you don't always get that level of trust with anybody that you're reporting on, and to have it there for Cody Boteler: what was a, you know, the biggest story on campus, the biggest event on campus for a long time, was really special, to sound kind of cheesy about it. L.X.: No, that doesn't sound cheesy at all, but I think it sounds rewarding, honestly, and a good experience.

00:13:39.380 - 00:14:11.660

L.X.: Yeah. Going back to, the Freddie Gray action. L.X.: How was the experience? Can you talk more about the Penn Station to City Hall protest, and were you a witness or a part of that? Cody Boteler: Yeah, so I… Cody Boteler: Again, I think that day we didn't know the full extent of

00:14:12.590 - 00:14:35.460

Cody Boteler: what was happening, and I don't remember if that's because it was, like, purposefully Cody Boteler: done that way by the organizers, or whether it just wasn't communicated to me on the ground that day until it was happening. Cody Boteler: Because at that point in the Towerlight, I would have been… Cody Boteler: So they're a news editor or senior editor then, I don't remember.

00:14:37.410 - 00:15:04.300

Cody Boteler: But I remember being on campus and going to, like, the campus part of the protest with one of our photographers. Cody Boteler: And talking to some other people I knew, and stuff like that. Cody Boteler: And, you know, they kind of marched around campus, and then people started saying, oh, we're going to Penn Station, oh, we're going to Penn Station, we're, like, we're going into Baltimore. Cody Boteler: And I had not planned to do that that day. Like, nobody had communicated that part of things with me.

00:15:05.110 - 00:15:19.620

Cody Boteler: And you know, whether that was… Cody Boteler: You know, who could say why? Cody Boteler: But then at some point, I remember getting in a car with… Cody Boteler: Oh, who'd I ride down with?

00:15:20.400 - 00:15:55.990

Cody Boteler: I rode down with our photographer. Cody Boteler: Patrick something, and a friend of mine from the Honors College, Laura Giedey, and we drove, and we parked, I guess, a little north of Penn Station. Cody Boteler: Kind of like, you know, jogged down to Penn Station, and then followed the march, from Penn to City Hall. Cody Boteler: And my memory of that… You know, I… As a student

00:15:56.270 - 00:16:22.500

Cody Boteler: reporter at the time, no one had been like, hey, this is how you cover a protest, this is how you cover a march. Like, that's not something that had been taught in our journalism school classes, which it probably should be. Cody Boteler: But I remember, you know, just doing a lot of… Like, I wasn't trying to talk to people who were marching at the time, I was just trying to, like, observe and see what was happening. Cody Boteler: And I kind of remember just kind of, like, working through the crowd, getting up near the front Cody Boteler: as much as possible, because I remember there was a…

00:16:22.720 - 00:17:02.820

Cody Boteler: I want to say it was a red pickup truck with a loudspeaker on it, and that's how the student organizers were, like, organizing things. They were kind of, Cody Boteler: you know, very slowly parading along in this truck with the march of people behind them. So I remember kind of hovering near the truck, just to be like, I don't know where we're going. At this point in my time at Towson, I had not been into Baltimore that often. Cody Boteler: So, I didn't know the route, I didn't know how to get from… I mean, you know, now in hindsight, really freaking easy to get from Penn Station to City Hall. Could do it in my sleep. But you know, at the time, I had no idea. Cody Boteler: I remember it being a really, really big crowd. I remember being, like,

00:17:04.590 - 00:17:27.760

Cody Boteler: shocked by how many students had come out for it. Cody Boteler: And I remember being surprised and impressed that, like, Cody Boteler: there was national media there, too, and I guess that shouldn't be surprising in hindsight, because it wasn't like it was the first Freddie Gray protest. It was, you know, part of the ongoing Cody Boteler: uprising and protest movement.

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Cody Boteler: But yeah, I remember just kind of, like, Cody Boteler: you know, running from this side of the sidewalk to the other side of the sidewalk in between people, just trying to capture everything and Cody Boteler: take note of what was going on, Cody Boteler: and I have no idea how I got back up to campus. I, like, legitimately don't remember. I'm sure I probably just, like, found Laura, got in her car, and rode back up. I do seem to remember that we left the photographer down there. Like, I think he stayed longer.

00:18:00.840 - 00:18:22.080

Cody Boteler: I wish I could remember. I do remember, I don't know, you've probably seen it. Cody Boteler: the cover image from when we… Cody Boteler: Okay, yeah, so I was seeing another. No, not that one. Cody Boteler: There was… Patrick Burk, that was the guy's last name.

00:18:22.820 - 00:18:39.230

Cody Boteler: B-u-r-k. Cody Boteler: I'll put it in the chat. You've probably seen this already, because you've probably done more research than me. Cody Boteler: And we don't have, like, the… Cody Boteler: The cover image is not on it.

00:18:39.350 - 00:19:14.840

Cody Boteler: But if you scroll down to where the... Cody Boteler: Like, there's just, like, a grid of photos. The one middle row all the way to the right Cody Boteler: where you can see, like, the trees, and the truck. That was our, like, cover image. Cody Boteler: You know, I think it was cropped in a little bit, and I'm pretty sure it was, like, you know, the Towerlight, and then in, like, yellow text, I think it's, like, all night, all day at the top. And I remember being just, like, so impressed by that photo, and how Patrick, like, ran ahead of the march, found high ground, and took that photo.

00:19:16.800 - 00:19:43.480

Cody Boteler: You know, it also shows just how far back it goes, and how many people were involved. Cody Boteler: And, you know, I do remember kind of walking around and being like, Cody Boteler: oh, wow, the National Guard really is here. The police really are here, like, in between the protesters and City Hall, and that was… Cody Boteler: You know, as a young… I don't know, what was I? 2015, barely 20-year-old white guy, that was something I had not seen before. And that was… I remember that being a kind of intense feeling.

00:19:46.210 - 00:20:00.020

L.X.: Yeah, sounds powerful. L.X.: They're also, like, an intercollegiate protest, so that probably explains the bulk of, like, L.X.: the crowd that showed up, and organizers who showed up. Cody Boteler: For sure, for sure.

00:20:00.020 - 00:20:25.440

L.X.: Yeah, seemed like an interconnected, well-organized direct action, for sure. Cody Boteler: Yeah, definitely. I, you know, at Cody Boteler: 20, I don't think I really understood how big of an undertaking it was to get that many people together, but, like, now, with years of hindsight, it's like, oh, wow, that… Cody Boteler: It is a lot of work

00:20:26.240 - 00:20:47.170

Cody Boteler: for protests of any size, but especially when you're bringing people from, like, multiple starting points to all converge at the same spot, too. Like, that's impressive organizing. Cody Boteler: Excuse me. L.X.: Yeah. L.X.: Do you, remember any of the student organizations that were a part of both the Freddie Gray action, as well as any actions related to Occupy?

00:20:54.600 - 00:21:27.690

Cody Boteler: Not really. And I think part of it is just because, like, it was all kind of Cody Boteler: nebulous? Like, I'm assuming the Black Student Union was involved. I think, wasn't there a group called, like, Standing Up for Racial Justice? Cody Boteler: But in my head, it really is, like, you know, what I remember… Cody Boteler: Less than the

00:21:29.570 - 00:22:01.010

Cody Boteler: organizations, I remember, like, I remember Korey Johnson, John Gillespie, and Bilphena Yahwon as, like, the organizers of both this, and then the Occupy, and then the, like, pressure on administration that kind of persisted after that. Cody Boteler: And I mean, you know, I think that's just the nature of that's who I talked to for these stories, and that's who we stayed in touch with, and so that's kind of Cody Boteler: what happens there. No, I can't remember any of the, like, specific organizations that were involved. L.X.: That's alright.

00:22:01.120 - 00:22:25.680

L.X.: If you can recall.., L.X.: what were race relations like on campus during this time? Cody Boteler: Hmm… Cody Boteler: You know, we were only a few years removed from the White Student Union at that point.

00:22:26.750 - 00:23:01.430

Cody Boteler: Which, that was… That situation was fully resolved before I got on campus by, like, I think I was, like, a year or two removed from it. But that is not something that people forget, and people hear about it, and they learn about it. Cody Boteler: You know, so I think there was probably… Cody Boteler: I don't know if tension is the right word. Cody Boteler: But there was certainly an awareness of that in Towson's very recent history.

00:23:01.920 - 00:23:25.270

Cody Boteler: There was a student group called the White Student Union, and it kind of Cody Boteler: propelled, at least for a few years, Cody Boteler: Matthew Heimbach as, like, this national figure in the white supremacy movement. Cody Boteler: People were certainly very, very aware of that. They were certainly very, very aware that Richard Vatz, the professor sponsor, was

00:23:26.840 - 00:23:57.600

Cody Boteler: at least initially involved. Cody Boteler: Yeah, I, you know, I don't feel Cody Boteler: the most qualified to answer what they were… What race relations were like at the time. I… Cody Boteler: Was this around the time... I do kind of remember there being some discourse around, like, oh,

00:23:57.700 - 00:24:17.750

Cody Boteler: the events for the white students don't have all the extra security around them, the events for the Black students do, and, like, people noticing that sort of thing. Cody Boteler: I am blanking on examples. L.X.: Tenure? Does that ring a bell? Cody Boteler: What's up?

00:24:18.080 - 00:24:41.640

L.X.: Tenure, does that ring a bell? Cody Boteler: Oh, yeah, yeah, the issues with tenure, and how there were much fewer Black professors with tenure on the tenure check, for sure. Cody Boteler: But, you know, as a student in the... Cody Boteler: A lot of that discourse was happening in, like, the College of Liberal Arts, and…

00:24:42.520 - 00:25:08.050

Cody Boteler: Or at least to my knowledge it was, and, you know, over in COFAC [College of Fine Arts and Communication], I didn't see that as directly, Cody Boteler: but we heard about it a lot. Cody Boteler: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I don't remember, I don't remember what the numbers were, but I remember they were really bad. Cody Boteler: And I mean, I'm sure that's part of why that ended up as being on the list of demands that came up during Occupy.

00:25:10.460 - 00:25:32.070

L.X.: Yeah, definitely. L.X.: So, definitely like, just a heavy awareness L.X.: of what's been going on, and that, like, recent history… Cody Boteler: Definitely, definitely. I think, you know, it was…

00:25:32.310 - 00:25:58.880

Cody Boteler: I mean, at least as somebody who was at the student newspaper, it was hard to not be aware that, like, oh, the White Student Union, like, just happened. You know, like, this was, like, Cody Boteler: you know, like, the guy who was our editor-in-chief at the time, Jonathan Munshaw, he was in the Vice documentary about it. Like, this, like, just happened. Cody Boteler: And I think people were very aware of that. Cody Boteler: And aware of the fact that, like,

00:25:59.690 - 00:26:23.100

Cody Boteler: despite the fact that Towson University is a fairly, like, geographically urban campus, and, what, all of Cody Boteler: 5 miles from the Baltimore City line Cody Boteler: and, you know, at the time, and increasingly since, like, a very Cody Boteler: racially, ethnically, and even, like,

00:26:24.000 - 00:26:51.990

Cody Boteler: income-mixed campus. Like, you know, it's not like... We weren't one of, like, the Big Ten SEC schools in the South. You know, like, it was a diverse campus. I think there was also a lot of awareness that Cody Boteler: that does not mean that there aren't Cody Boteler: a lot of racist attitudes, whether consciously or unconsciously. Cody Boteler: And I remember, you know, that

00:26:53.020 - 00:27:16.870

Cody Boteler: being a lot of the, like, undercurrent of discussion Cody Boteler: during Freddie Gray, and then again during Occupy, and then it kind of bubbling up again, after the 2016 election, and when Trump was elected. L.X.: Yeah, I think that's when everything sort of started coming to a head. So L.X.: I think the Occupy organizers saw it coming.

00:27:17.420 - 00:27:43.200

Cody Boteler: Probably, yes. L.X.: So about a year after the sit-in, there was a, Maryland Correctional Enterprises tour L.X.: Which was one of the demands as well was ending the contract with MCE. L.X.: And then there was a tour with Kurt Anderson and Gayon Sampson.

00:27:44.170 - 00:28:04.990

L.X.: What was your experience like talking with them and attempting to connect with MCE? Cody Boteler: I remember being very frustrated by that experience, because, Cody Boteler: I mean, one, it would have been nice if they'd been like, hey guys, we're doing this, come with us and, you know, Cody Boteler: document it.

00:28:05.190 - 00:28:29.850

Cody Boteler: And I don't think we got that nod. And then I also remember, Cody Boteler: as a student journalist, going directly to MCE, and initially they were like, yeah, we'll see what we can do, we'll get you in, and then they totally locked us out, and they didn't, they didn't allow for Cody Boteler: a media interview or tour. Cody Boteler: So that is my main memory of it, is that frustration

00:28:30.050 - 00:28:51.350

Cody Boteler: in attempting to deal with, like, the actual institution and trying to get access that way. Cody Boteler: You know, I mean, frankly, I do remember hearing at some point, and Cody Boteler: It must have been after this tour that they went on, and it must have been from talking to them that… Cody Boteler: You know, some of the feedback that they brought back was

00:28:52.500 - 00:29:11.840

Cody Boteler: the participants in the MCE program enjoy it, because Cody Boteler: it's something they can do. You know, it's… Cody Boteler: I don't… I still don't think it's a good system. You know, I'm sure they are horrendously and criminally underpaid. Cody Boteler: But I remember they came back with a more nuanced view of it than

00:29:12.290 - 00:29:31.840

Cody Boteler: what was shared by the organizers at the time of the protest. Cody Boteler: You know, having not been there, who knows? I… Like, I know there's a waitlist to participate in, Cody Boteler: but is that because there's nothing else to do, or is it because it's actually a good program? Cody Boteler: I don't know.

00:29:34.000 - 00:30:13.940

Cody Boteler: I don't remember much else, though. I remember being shocked learning about it. You know, as an incoming freshman, it's not like they tell you, oh, hey, by the way, your dorm furniture was made by people in the prison system. Like, they don't tell you that. I remember being, like, shocked to learn that that's Cody Boteler: how not only Towson University furnitures, but how, like, most institutions in the state do. Cody Boteler: Well, it's very, strange to think about. Cody Boteler: But I don't have much of a memory of, like, what they came back and said, unfortunately.

00:30:16.150 - 00:30:32.630

L.X.: Yeah, that's alright. And it's interesting, because there are some faculty that focus and even teach prison abolition L.X.: on campus, but one of the demands L.X.: that focused on ending the prison labor contract... Cody Boteler: Mmm.

00:30:32.630 - 00:30:56.470

L.X.: ...was ending it with Maryland Correctional Enterprises. L.X.: So, what do you believe are some of the reasons why that demand hasn't come to fruition? L.X.: You know, we kinda talk about prison abolition all the time, and L.X.: as someone from CLA, like, I'm aware of that, keenly, but yeah, I'm just curious what your thoughts are about that.

00:31:03.360 - 00:31:30.760

Cody Boteler: Sorry, I'm just, like, very quickly skimming the, like, one year later article I did on this. Cody Boteler: I mean, you know, I… Cody Boteler: These systems are huge and unwieldy and made up of people who are doing their jobs. And Cody Boteler: that can build a lot of inertia, and it can be really hard to stop something that huge.

00:31:30.970 - 00:31:52.450

Cody Boteler: And like, if I'm recalling correctly, Cody Boteler: it is a state law that the University System of Maryland has to purchase stuff through MCE. Cody Boteler: And I can imagine… Cody Boteler: For, like, a dozen different reasons, I can imagine that would be a very difficult law to change. Because you have people go, oh, so,

00:31:53.050 - 00:32:25.870

Cody Boteler: you'll look weak on crime, you look like you don't care about prisoners, you look like you want the university to spend more money. You know, there are, like, a million different arguments I can imagine getting thrown at any state senator or state delegate who proposes trying to change the system. Cody Boteler: And so it's easier to not than it is to look at that sort of thing. L.X.: For sure. L.X.: In your opinion, how is Occupy connected to the larger struggle against police brutality in Baltimore City?

00:32:26.520 - 00:32:53.420

Cody Boteler: That's a good question. You know, as an outside observer to it, Cody Boteler: I think a lot of it was probably, Cody Boteler: like, born in and forged in those experiences of students organizing in response to Freddie Gray. Cody Boteler: You know, I can only imagine that, you know, just, like,

00:32:53.740 - 00:33:19.230

Cody Boteler: as a reporter, I was there meeting people and getting phone numbers so I could give people calls later. I'm sure the organizers were doing the same sort of thing. And we're building those networks that then Cody Boteler: 6, 7, 8 months later, however long it was, Cody Boteler: came together and enabled them to, you know, Cody Boteler: talk with each other, organize, get support, and ultimately, you know, carry out the occupation of the admin building.

00:33:20.430 - 00:33:42.770

Cody Boteler: You know, I… Do you have Occupy without the Freddie Gray protests? Cody Boteler: I don't know. Cody Boteler: Maybe? Because, you know, I know the Occupy Movement didn't start Cody Boteler: at Towson, you know, it was kind of across the country.

00:33:43.080 - 00:34:08.900

Cody Boteler: And, Cody Boteler: you know, obviously at that period in American history, Freddie Gray wasn't the only Black person killed by police. There were many others. Cody Boteler: So, you know, I can imagine it happening without the Freddie Gray protests and the Cody Boteler: awareness and organizing around police brutality in Baltimore, but I don't know if it happens as

00:34:09.430 - 00:34:28.700

Cody Boteler: successfully, or, as early, because those networks may not have been in place. Cody Boteler: But it's hard to imagine, but I do think they are, like, Cody Boteler: inseparable from each other because of the way they developed and evolved. Cody Boteler: But

00:34:30.240 - 00:34:54.870

Cody Boteler: that's somebody who saw it happen, not somebody who was part of the organizing, so I can't say for sure. L.X.: So one of the demands was, you know, diversifying L.X.: the faculty, as well as the student body, I imagine, especially within L.X.: higher positions, like SGA that sort of thing.

00:34:55.000 - 00:35:17.060

L.X.: Do you believe Towson has diversified its faculty and student body L.X.: effectively or efficiently? Why or why not? Cody Boteler: Yeah, the student body? Definitely. Cody Boteler: You know, like, those numbers have changed

00:35:18.050 - 00:35:42.680

Cody Boteler: pretty dramatically. I'd have to look, and I don't wanna accidentally get it wrong. But, like, I'm Cody Boteler: pretty sure in the time since then, there have been at least a couple, Cody Boteler: like, incoming classes, if not, like, university as a whole, Cody Boteler: that have been majority non-white. I could be wrong, but I'm, like, pretty sure that happened.

00:35:43.100 - 00:36:19.220

Cody Boteler: On the faculty side, I've got no clue. That's just not something I've been plugged in on. Cody Boteler: Yeah, I don't know. I'd have to look. I mean, I would certainly hope so. I know there was… There were some very real conversations around it at the time. Cody Boteler: But it's just been so long since I've looked at conversations around tenure. Wasn't there… Cody Boteler: Shortly after, wasn't there, like, a fairly popular

00:36:21.660 - 00:36:46.690

Cody Boteler: professor, or, like, two professors who were maybe not on tenure track yet, but they were fired or something. There was something like that. There was some sort of… Cody Boteler: Yeah, I don't remember. Cody Boteler: I remember there was something about that shortly after. Like, I know it wasn't like a… It wasn't like flip… It certainly was not like flipping a switch, Cody Boteler: especially on the tenure side, I'm sure.

00:36:48.870 - 00:36:58.000

L.X.: Are you referring to the English professor L.X.: who was trying to get on tenure, and… Cody Boteler: I think so? Cody Boteler: Like, the year after.

00:37:05.940 - 00:37:27.140

Cody Boteler: I remember… L.X.: I know the tenure demand itself was... L.X.: A large part of the reason for that demand was because of this professor, and also, I mean, L.X.: just being taught by pretty much entirely white professors as a Black person...

00:37:27.140 - 00:37:40.370

Cody Boteler: Yes. L.X.: ...I'm sure is a difficult thing to navigate, so… Yeah. Cody Boteler: Yes. Cody Boteler: Yes, I'm… Oh god, what was her name?

00:37:42.140 - 00:37:48.740

L.X.: The professor? Cody Boteler: Yeah. L.X.: Tara Bynum? Cody Boteler: Yes! Oh my gosh, that's right.

00:37:50.640 - 00:37:58.570

Cody Boteler: That's right, yeah, okay. Oh, is she at Hopkins now? Cody Boteler: Good for her. L.X.: I think so, yeah. Cody Boteler: Yeah, that's right.

00:38:00.650 - 00:38:18.900

Cody Boteler: Yeah, okay. Cody Boteler: I remember that being a thing, yeah. But yeah, I mean, Cody Boteler: you know, as… Like, I'm even thinking back to, like, when I took classes, Cody Boteler: either as part of, like, the core requirements, or

00:38:19.550 - 00:38:45.150

Cody Boteler: as part of, like, honors electives Cody Boteler: that were, you know, therefore not in COFAC, but were in CLA or Fisher [College of Math and Science]. Cody Boteler: I think… And I would, like, I would have to, like, look at my transcript and, like, actually, like, really think about it to be sure, but I think Cody Boteler: I had one Black professor my entire time at Towson University.

00:38:48.430 - 00:39:10.640

Cody Boteler: And so, you know, Cody Boteler: I can only imagine how uncomfortable that is, Cody Boteler: or how frustrating it must be for a Black student to, you know, especially if you're in a Cody Boteler: politics course, or you're in a, you know...

00:39:11.360 - 00:39:26.330

Cody Boteler: Like, the one Cody Boteler: Black female professor I remember having, she was my professor for… Cody Boteler: What was it, like, Women in Perspective, I think, was the name of, like, the Feminist Studies 101 course? Cody Boteler: But, like,

00:39:27.800 - 00:40:17.300

Cody Boteler: God, like, I can't imagine, like, that being… Like, if that was taught by a white guy, like, I can't imagine how uncomfortable that would be for… Well, for everybody, but especially for the women in that class and the non-white students in that class. Cody Boteler: So, I mean, I would… I do certainly hope it's improved since then, especially in the, like. Cody Boteler: the liberal arts college… Well, I mean, no, I shouldn't say, because obviously you want it improved everywhere, but especially when you're dealing with topics of race and history and social activism in the States, you would certainly hope that those voices have diversified. I just don't know if they have. That's not something that I've kept up with. Cody Boteler: But it is something that, like, yeah, the more I think about it, the more, like, yeah, wait, I really did see that at campus. And again, you know,

00:40:18.930 - 00:40:51.160

Cody Boteler: as the white student focused on working at the newspaper, that's not something I thought about at the time. But again, with that hindsight, it's like, oh yeah, that Cody Boteler: can't have been a great feeling, and I can only imagine the frustration that must have… I mean, you saw it, because it came out in the activism and in the organizing. You know, they took action about it, so Cody Boteler: not only can I imagine how the frustration played out, but we saw how it played out Cody Boteler: in the Occupy Towson movement.

00:40:53.380 - 00:41:18.460

L.X.: And especially with the proximity to Baltimore City, a majority Black city, and also… Cody Boteler: Straight, like, Coppin right down the street. Yeah. L.X.: And to your point, earlier, we are, like, a majority-minority campus now. L.X.: So, yeah, why do we have majority white professors teaching?

00:41:18.990 - 00:41:34.410

L.X.: Majority-minority students. Cody Boteler: Ah. L.X.: I think one of the reasons that they gave was, L.X.: yeah, Towson's basically in direct competition with the HBCUs in the area, like Coppin and Morgan.

00:41:34.580 - 00:41:56.440

Cody Boteler: Sure. L.X.: So, you know, you're gonna get better compensation, most likely, and just a better environment, L.X.: as opposed to a historically PWI. Cody Boteler: Oh, you mean, like, as a non-white professor, looking like, do I choose Towson or choose Morgan? Yeah, sure, that makes some degree of sense to me.

00:41:57.350 - 00:42:29.050

Cody Boteler: And, you know, again, it's one of those things where, like, Cody Boteler: I'm sure the number of Cody Boteler: non-white high schoolers looking at colleges is way higher than the number of non-white people ready to enter academia, right? So, like, you know, I'm sure even that's… Big systems take a long time to change, and you see it all the time, and I'm… Cody Boteler: Do you know what the ratio is like now for the faculty in different schools there?

00:42:29.370 - 00:42:47.430

L.X.: I don't, actually, but that's something to definitely look into. Cody Boteler: Yeah. Like, I don't know if it's improved. I would hope it has, by now, 10 years later, improved at least a little bit. Cody Boteler: But at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if it had not. L.X.: I think the goal was

00:42:48.430 - 00:43:09.920

L.X.: that, like, by Fall L.X.: 2018 to have a 10% increase in… L.X.: I can't remember if it was just non-white or Black professors on the tenure track or granted tenure. L.X.: 10%, and I think it was, at the time, probably, like,

00:43:10.550 - 00:43:19.380

L.X.: 1-2% or something like that. Cody Boteler: Okay. L.X.: So I can't imagine that's improved very much. L.X.: Just, in my experience, but...

00:43:19.610 - 00:43:45.260

Cody Boteler: Yeah. L.X.: Do you remember #NotAtTU L.X.: at all, and how effective was that campaign, in your opinion? Cody Boteler: I mean, how effective is anything when it comes from the top down like that, right? Like, if it's…

00:43:46.160 - 00:44:28.630

Cody Boteler: You know, and I say this as somebody who went and worked in the Towson Marketing and Communications Department for a couple years. You know, that sort of… Cody Boteler: That sort of thing is really hard to do. It's… Cody Boteler: I think it is very hard to… Cody Boteler: It's hard to change stuff from the top down if you don't have, like, the grassroots and that bottom-up support. What I do remember #NotAtTU doing

00:44:29.610 - 00:44:46.830

Cody Boteler: was, Cody Boteler: you know, I… Did it keep Cody Boteler: racist incidents from happening, to keep people from getting hurt? I don't know. Cody Boteler: I hope so.

00:44:47.560 - 00:45:13.870

Cody Boteler: I know, at the very least, what it did was create a lot of events and a lot of forums where people were at least talking about Cody Boteler: race and talking about other forms of discrimination and bias and hate crimes. Cody Boteler: And, you know, at the very least, because they were university sponsored, there was, like, some degree of institutional buy-in there. Cody Boteler: So,

00:45:14.300 - 00:45:52.230

Cody Boteler: you know, I guess to the degree that it got people talking, it was at least a little effective. To the degree that it, Cody Boteler: you know, mobilized a mass movement and changed people's minds? I don't know. Cody Boteler: But, like, I can picture the poster, you know, so it at least left some impression there. Cody Boteler: Yeah, I don't know. No, I, you know, I do think as, like, a vehicle for getting people to at least talk about these things, and to at least consider them.

00:45:52.610 - 00:46:16.480

Cody Boteler: Pretty effective. Cody Boteler: And to, like, raise awareness about it. Pretty effective. And, Cody Boteler: you know, again, thinking about it, Cody Boteler: you know, that does show, actually, a pretty high level of institutional support, the fact that it was, like, sponsored like that. And,

00:46:19.760 - 00:46:46.690

Cody Boteler: yeah, that seems to me a pretty positive thing, now that I'm thinking about it. Cody Boteler: do I know if a hashtag and teach-ins changed hearts and minds? No. But it got people talking, it got people really thinking about these things, and, Cody Boteler: yeah, that's good. Especially when Cody Boteler: there's that inherent level of administrative support from a PWI. I think that was actually pretty solid.

00:46:51.830 - 00:47:17.790

L.X.: Just have a couple more questions for you. L.X.: Is there anyone else who you think would be a good person to reach out to? L.X.: For an oral history, or insight into Occupy, could be either. Cody Boteler: Well, yeah, I mean, the organizers, but I'm sure I don't have to tell you that.

00:47:17.790 - 00:47:40.030

Cody Boteler: Um... Cody Boteler: But in terms of people in the administration who I remember were there, obviously Dr. Chandler, who I assume is retired by now. Cody Boteler: Marina Cooper, she was the president's chief of staff at the time, I think she's at Hopkins now. Cody Boteler: Oh, what was the attorney's name? Was that Traevena Byrd?

00:47:41.330 - 00:47:57.590

Cody Boteler: Yeah, yeah. She's not still at Towson, is she? Cody Boteler: She's at American. Cody Boteler: Oh, Shodekeh was there. The artist, Shodekeh, was there with the students. L.X.: Really?

00:47:57.590 - 00:48:26.010

Cody Boteler: Uh-huh, I think. Cody Boteler: Hold on. Cody Boteler: Let's see if I can… I'm, like, Cody Boteler: pretty sure he's in the photos.

00:48:45.620 - 00:49:04.030

Cody Boteler: Let me look at that full list of demand… Oh, no, can't be found. Cody Boteler: Yeah, I'm… I'm pretty sure he was there. Anyway, Cody Boteler: the organizers, Tim Chandler, Marina Cooper, Traevena Byrd, I'm, like, Cody Boteler: 70% sure Shodekeh was there.

00:49:04.530 - 00:49:31.120

Cody Boteler: I can picture him in his gray hoodie. Cody Boteler: Oh, Ray Feldman, he did communications for the university. Cody Boteler: And he was there. Cody Boteler: Deb Moriarty who was the, Student Affairs VP, and I remember she actually… She's one of the people that, I remember the Towerlight did, like, a sit-down with several months later to be like,

00:49:31.480 - 00:49:57.470

Cody Boteler: let's just go through the list, man, like, what's the status of stuff here? In terms of Cody Boteler: other Towerlighters who were there Cody Boteler: at the actual occupation of the admin building, it was me, Carley Milligan, Cody Boteler: And Patrick Burk No, sorry, Patrick Burk was not there. Patrick Burk was at the march.

00:49:59.490 - 00:50:26.520

Cody Boteler: It was me, Carley Milligan, and his name was Nilo Exar, I think? E-X-A-R. Cody Boteler: I don't know where he is now. I could probably find an email for Carley for you, if you need help finding one. L.X.: What's the name of the second person you just… Exar? Cody Boteler: Nilo, N-I-L-O.

00:50:27.430 - 00:50:42.000

L.X.: Okay, great, thank you. Cody Boteler: He may have moved to, like, Arizona, I think. I think he Cody Boteler: became an architect or something. Cody Boteler: Who else was there? Oh, and then, you know, I know in the aftermath,

00:50:42.860 - 00:51:02.330

Cody Boteler: like, Santiago Solis was pretty involved. Cody Boteler: Oh, I should have thought of this sooner, I should have had a list ready for you. Cody Boteler: I feel like I have other people, I can… I can send you an email, for sure. L.X.: Oh, that'd be great.

00:51:08.810 - 00:51:31.740

Cody Boteler: Yeah, if I can find, like, the photos that we took, if, you know, I can… Cody Boteler: Oh, the Organized Network of Student Resistance, that's right, I remember that they made that. Cody Boteler: Oh, wait, let's see, let's see if there's anyone else in these pictures I recognize. Cody Boteler: No, not really.

00:51:35.540 - 00:51:57.760

Cody Boteler: Let's see… No. Cody Boteler: We'll find a Korey, John, there's Tim Chandler… Cody Boteler: Yeah, Deb Moriarty's right there, Ray Feldman's right there, Traevena Byrd's right there, Tim Chandler's right there, huddled in a circle talking. Cody Boteler: Yeah.

00:52:03.730 - 00:52:22.790

L.X.: For Carley, I did reach out to her, but I didn't receive a response back, so I don't know if you have L.X.: like, a different contact for her that I could reach out to, that would be L.X.: Helpful, if you could share that. Cody Boteler: Let me look, and I can get back to you.

00:52:23.640 - 00:52:34.150

L.X.: Sounds good. L.X.: Is there anything else you'd like to share? Cody Boteler: Hmm. L.X.: Anything that, I don't know, comes to mind?

00:52:34.150 - 00:53:02.030

Cody Boteler: Yeah, I mean, it was, like, the actual, like, Cody Boteler: day into night of Occupy Towson, like, Cody Boteler: it was really freaking cool. And, like, that's, like, grossly simplistic. Cody Boteler: But I mean, you know, thinking back to it at the time, one,

00:53:02.430 - 00:53:19.820

Cody Boteler: to be a student journalist, and to have something Cody Boteler: on the national scale happening at your university, Cody Boteler: because of students at your university, Cody Boteler: that's incredible. You know, to see that sort of

00:53:21.320 - 00:53:40.460

Cody Boteler: organizing, and then the fact that it ended with, like, you know, nobody was arrested, nobody was dragged out of the building in handcuffs. Cody Boteler: They reached an agreement, a watered... You know, Cody Boteler: albeit, I'm pretty sure, a fairly watered-down version of the original agreement. Cody Boteler: And then there was…

00:53:40.670 - 00:54:14.790

Cody Boteler: To the best of my knowledge, things did change a little. You know, they did genuinely work towards some of those things. I don't think all of them, and I'm certain not to, you know, completion, Cody Boteler: you know, but the fact that it happened, and that it ended with the university president saying, okay, yeah, I'll sign this, like, that's… Cody Boteler: It's really cool. Like, that's Cody Boteler: a testament to the organizing work, it's a testament to the relationships between the students and the administrators at the time, I think.

00:54:15.930 - 00:54:44.380

Cody Boteler: You know, Cody Boteler: I'm, like, pretty sure that the sit-in movement and the administration occupation movement didn't end with agreements like that across the country. Like, I'm pretty sure Towson was a pretty rare example of that. Cody Boteler: And then, you know, again, especially with Cody Boteler: 10 years of hindsight, of 10 years of, you know, being involved

00:54:44.860 - 00:55:16.040

Cody Boteler: in organizing a union, in being a reporter, working with other protest organizers, of being somebody on the other side and being in administration. Cody Boteler: Like, I… Cody Boteler: You watch it happen 10 years ago, and you think, oh, this came out of nowhere, look how cool and impressive this is coming out. It's like, no, that, like, a lot of work went into that on both and every side of it, and that, it's just… Cody Boteler: Really kind of just, like, cool and moving to think of, and to think about that,

00:55:16.240 - 00:55:35.160

Cody Boteler: you know, so far removed from it. L.X.: Yeah, it really speaks to the power of student organizing. Cody Boteler: Definitely. Cody Boteler: Alright, I think that's all I got.

00:55:36.520 - 00:56:07.500

L.X.: Well, that was a great ending to this oral history, so, well, thank you again for, showing up today, and L.X.: giving us a conversation that we could, share with everybody else who's interested in learning about Occupy, and, L.X.: yeah, I really appreciate you spending time to talk with us today. I'm a big fan of The Banner. So, yeah, this is… Cody Boteler: Yeah, I'm sorry I wasn't able to

00:56:08.000 - 00:56:28.880

Cody Boteler: dig up more detail or anything, but, you know. Cody Boteler: 10 years. L.X.: That is, yeah, yeah, that is totally fair and fine. You know, because L.X.: the… Our emotions and, like, how we're feeling in that moment is what we remember most, and that's really what we're trying to get at, is,

00:56:29.550 - 00:56:54.200

L.X.: you know, having representatives of people who actually experienced it, and being able to share L.X.: what happened. Cody Boteler: Yeah, and I… Again, you know, two minutes left before I have to go. But I, you know, I do remember, like, it… Yes, there was a lot of, Cody Boteler: like, again, like, in the president's suite, you know, there was a lot of tension, understandably, because, like,

00:56:54.900 - 00:57:19.350

Cody Boteler: what was it, Mizzou got, like, Cody Boteler: tear gassed or something. You know, like, you know, these things had ended very poorly in other universities, and so there was obviously Cody Boteler: tension there. Cody Boteler: But the students were all just so collaborative, and so determined to get something accomplished and something done.

00:57:21.020 - 00:57:52.610

Cody Boteler: That, you know, I think, one, that Cody Boteler: really did push the administration to show some flexibility and to show some willingness to work with them. Cody Boteler: But, two, you know, I think it also Cody Boteler: inspired the students to, you know, kind of work toward that, okay, we're not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good here. And if we're able to get something, even if it's not the original version we came in here, we'd rather have something than nothing.

00:57:52.630 - 00:58:17.610

Cody Boteler: And, like, it was a long night. People were very tired. There was, like, a palpable wave of relief when Dr. Chandler signed and dated on the line. Cody Boteler: But, like, that's because it was hard work, not because people were, like, angry or pissed. Cody Boteler: This is kind of my memory of things. L.X.: Yeah. Though they have every right to be pissed, right?

00:58:17.610 - 00:58:33.570

Cody Boteler: Well, yes, of course. Cody Boteler: I mean, I think truly everybody would be at that, you know… It was important stuff, but it wasn't, like… Cody Boteler: The relief wasn't, you know, Cody Boteler: administrators thinking, how dare you kids keep us here? And it wasn't the students thinking,

00:58:33.850 - 00:58:46.670

Cody Boteler: you know, how dare you not listen to us for these last few hours? It was a relief because it's been a long Cody Boteler: many, many hours, and we accomplished something here. L.X.: Yeah, the whole 9 hours. Cody Boteler: Yeah.

00:58:47.430 - 00:58:56.490

L.X.: It's a long standoff. Cody Boteler: Absolutely. Cody Boteler: Absolutely. L.X.: Alright, well, thank you again.

00:58:56.750 - 00:59:05.630

Cody Boteler: Of course! Sorry we had to reschedule, and I'm sorry I do have to run. And if I think of anyone else, I can send you an email for sure. L.X.: Sounds great.