Interview with Whitney LeBlanc

Whitney LeBlanc (00:00:00): ... words. Allyn Lawrence (00:00:02): Sorry. I just wanted to start the recording. Whitney LeBlanc (00:00:07): Oh, okay. So, is there anything I should, uh, wait on or for you? I- I just, I was making a statement and... an initial statement- Allyn Lawrence (00:00:18): Oh, okay. Whitney LeBlanc (00:00:18): ... so that all of the facts would be, uh, correctly, uh... Dick Gillespie re- is... he... she ri-... C. Richard Gillespie is his name, I called him Dick Gillespie. We were members of, uh, the graduate program at the University of Iowa where we met and became friends, and he was the one who decided that it was time for the faculty at Towson to be integrated. At that time, there were about, oh, I don't know exactly, but less than 10 students of color at- at Towson. Uh, Howard Rollins was one of them, and there was no faculty at all at- at, uh, Towson. And it was in the middle of the Klan country, which it still is, uh, as I remember very vividly. So, that is the background into which all of this happened in 1965. So, we'll go ahead and proceed with your questions. Allyn Lawrence (00:01:37): Um, if I remember correctly, um, did Dr. Gillespie work with you in the theater department, or is he from a different department? Whitney LeBlanc (00:01:45): Oh, he created the theater department. Allyn Lawrence (00:01:48): He created the theater department? Whitney LeBlanc (00:01:48): There was no theater department there until Dick Gillespie came to, um, Towson from... I think this was his second job after graduate school. I think he was in New Jersey, and, uh, Baltimore is his home, and- and he went to Towson State Teachers College (laughs) to establish a theater department. He was the one who established it. There was nothing there, uh, relative to theater until he came, and I don't remember exactly how long he had been there before he contacted me in 1965 to come and, uh, integrate the faculty. But he created the theater department. Allyn Lawrence (00:02:58): So, he brought you in in '65 to integrate the theater department. So- Whitney LeBlanc (00:02:59): '65, right. Allyn Lawrence (00:03:00): '65. Um, how did you feel about this distinction, being the first Black professor at Towson State College? Whitney LeBlanc (00:03:08): I had, I had real, um, personal, uh, questions about it, because at the time I was at Howard University, which was a mecca of Black theater activity. And, uh, I had always wanted to be there, and I left Antioch College in '65 to, uh... Well, wait a minute. I have some notes here. Um, yeah, in '65 I got... Uh, yeah, I went, I went to Howard University in '65, and, uh, that was, you know, the crown in anyone's... uh, jewel in anyone's crown for being, you know, in the mecca and in the program of Black theater education. So, I was very privileged to be there, and, uh, Dick Gillespie and I had met several years earlier in the graduate program at the University of Iowa, and we were friends, w- from the very first meeting we- we were friends. He and his wife Shirley and I were a- a good friends threesome. And, uh, after he had established the department and he wanted to integrate the university faculty, he called me at Howard University and we had a couple of dinner meetings, luncheon meetings, and he proposed the idea. Whitney LeBlanc (00:05:06): And it was something very difficult for me to, uh, entertain because I was where I wanted to be, but I felt a greater need and a greater call to integrate Towson. Uh, I felt personally that I had not done as much (laughs)... Let me get rid of this call. Speaker 3 (00:05:39): Call from- Whitney LeBlanc (00:05:39): Okay. Uh, I felt that I had not done as much to integrate... uh, towards integration as I might have done. Allyn Lawrence (00:05:46): Yeah. Whitney LeBlanc (00:05:46): And, uh, he put the bee in my bu- bo- bonnet, and- and, uh, gave me the challenge, and I agreed. I agreed. So, uh, it was, uh, it was, uh... I was hired in September, September 8th, 1965, at Towson. Allyn Lawrence (00:06:10): So, when you arrived at Towson, what were your initial impressions about the racial climate on campus? Whitney LeBlanc (00:06:23): It was terrible. Allyn Lawrence (00:06:25): Terrible? Whitney LeBlanc (00:06:27): I was told N-jokes every day by the campus police in the parking lot every time I arrived, every day I arrived. They always let me know who I was. Every day, every phone call was monitored by the, uh, telephone operators. There was no secret, and there was no intent to disguise the fact that I was under surveillance. It was horrible, and I had to bite my tongue and keep my temper and contain my anger. Every day, from the very first day I arrived. The only people that spoke to me were the people in the department, Dick Gillespie, Georgia Baker, Manlove, John Manlove, and there was one other faculty member in the art department, [Leroy Moré 00:07:40], who spoke to me. Faculty-wise, that was it. The faculty was totally and completely 100%, you know, against me being there. It was not easy. It was (laughs)... I hate to compare it, but it was like Jackie Robinson with the, uh, Brooklyn Dodgers. Allyn Lawrence (00:08:11): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Would you say that the situ- the situation was similar for the African-American students on campus? Were they- Whitney LeBlanc (00:08:22): Uh, what's the question again? Allyn Lawrence (00:08:27): Um, would you say that your situation was similar to the situation faced by African-American students on campus? Whitney LeBlanc (00:08:35): I would, I would assume that, because I do not know. I did not have any contact with the few Black students who were there except Howard Rollins. Howard Rollins was the only Black connected with the theater department. But... And, uh, I'm- I'm assuming that there were not that many other Black students other than him in the entire, uh, college program, because I- I didn't see them, I didn't have any contact with them. Uh, it was lily-white, and, uh, I'm- I'm making an assumption that there were less than 10 other Black students in the entire state college at that time. Did not have any contact with- with them other than Howard Rollins. Allyn Lawrence (00:09:41): Yeah, if I'm, if I'm remembering correctly, I think the African-American students made up less than 1% of the student body population in 1965, which is just f- really a shame. Whitney LeBlanc (00:09:56): Yeah. I- I have no knowledge to contribute to that fact. Let me... These are calls from my wife [crosstalk 00:10:04] that I have to, (laughs) I have to- Whitney LeBlanc (00:10:07): It's on the same line that's in this office. Go ahead. Allyn Lawrence (00:10:13): Um, okay. So, now I have a few questions- Whitney LeBlanc (00:10:16): Sure. Allyn Lawrence (00:10:17): ... about, um, things you experienced at Towson. So, I think one of the main things I discovered as I was looking through the Towson archives here was, um, your work with the play And People All Around. Um, do you mind talking about that experience and what made you decide to direct that play? Whitney LeBlanc (00:10:39): Excuse me. Okay. I'm getting rid of that. Whitney LeBlanc (00:10:55): Uh, Dick Gillespie is the resource for that. He brought the play to me, and, uh, I'm- I'm a little distracted now because I have this sort of written down in my archives, and it might be more sufficient to read it rather than remember it. Whitney LeBlanc (00:11:40): Can you excuse me just a moment so I can deal with this phone? Thank you. Whitney LeBlanc (00:11:45): Hi. [inaudible 00:12:02] Whitney LeBlanc (00:12:27): All right. Uh, I hope I've settled this. Whitney LeBlanc (00:12:31): Uh, I- I think maybe rather than trying to do that research, I'll just answer your questions. That was, that was Gillespie. Gillespie brought me this play by Sklar, And People All Around, which was a play based on the killing of the three civil rights workers by the Klan [crosstalk 00:13:00] in Philadelphia, Mississippi. And I had not read it before, and he said, "You are going to direct it," so I figured, "Hey, okay." And that was the first... No, that was not the first thing I directed. Uh, Anatol was the first thing that I directed. So, I had a directing program at- at Towson along with my set design. So, I very naively started my rehearsals, uh, and we had open rehearsals. And, uh, I started rehearsal of this play not realizing how im- how- how many, uh, Klan-oriented students there were. Allyn Lawrence (00:14:06): Hmm. Whitney LeBlanc (00:14:08): So, the students were all over my rehearsals. I had open rehearsals, and the word got out that I was doing this play And People All Around, and I'm sure it was, and I feel very confident in saying that, the Klan-oriented student population at Towson brought the word outside of the university that I was doing this play. I had no knowledge of that kind of opposition or the response to the play by the Klan and the wider publicity until the play was scheduled to open, and Dr. Gillespie, I mean Dr. Hawkins called Dr. Gillespie and myself to his office the day before the play was supposed to open and said... and introduced us to two FBI people from Washington, DC who had gotten information that the Klan was preparing a- a protest to close down the production, and Dr. Hawkins wanted to know what our response was. Whitney LeBlanc (00:15:29): And even before Dick Gillespie had his say, I said, "Well, let them come. (laughs) We're- we're welcome to- to see the play." And Dick Gillespie, uh, agreed with me, and Dr. Hawkins agreed with me, and the Klan said that, well, it's not that simple. We have to do... take some precautions, and they did. Uh, th- they assigned a particular, uh, agent to me and the students in the production, and, uh... for our safety, and, uh, they came. About 20 Klan members came in full regalia, and protested and set up outside, um, I've forgotten the name of the street. York? Wha- what's the main, the main, uh, street outside of the college? Allyn Lawrence (00:16:27): York Road? Whitney LeBlanc (00:16:28): Right outside the... huh? Allyn Lawrence (00:16:30): York Road? Whitney LeBlanc (00:16:31): York Road. Is that it? Allyn Lawrence (00:16:34): Yeah. Whitney LeBlanc (00:16:35): Okay. I- I- (laughs) I don't... But that's where they- they set up their prote- protest, and, uh, full regalia, about 20 members of the Klan. And, uh, they protested, and, uh, I don't know whether you, uh, know this or your research has brought it, but at that time there was a gubernatorial campaign for the governor of- of- of Maryland, and, uh, George Mahoney was running against Agnew. Um, and he was a Democrat, uh, of- of the state, and he was winning at that time. He was leading the polls in the, uh, gubernatorial election, and Agnew was in the rear. Whitney LeBlanc (00:17:39): But George Mahoney was also a supporter of the Klan. His slogan was, "Your home is your castle," and he was against any kind of integration, and several members of his staff were in support of the Klan at that particular protest rally. And the Mahoney hats were intertwined with the Klan regalia and the flags and everything, and the Baltimore Sun got a picture of the Klan and the Mahoney people commingled in the opposition to the production of And People All Around. And, uh, they published that in the paper the following Monday, and I must say, the Republican people took ahold of it immediately and published it in- in- in posters all over the country, all over the s- uh, state, and that turned the election from Mahoney to Agnew by a very small margin. Allyn Lawrence (00:18:54): Wow. Whitney LeBlanc (00:18:55): So, Agnew won by virtue of having the publicity from this production of my play, and I always (laughs) feel guilty of having gotten Agnew cole- uh, governor by my production. But anyway, that's what happened. But they- they came in, the Klan first came in in- in their regalia to stop the production, and the FBI turned them away. They went out and took off their, uh, uh, sheets and hoods and came in as... in regular dress and protested the production all the way through, and each time they were discovered the Klan moved them... I mean the FBI moved them out of the production, out of the auditorium. Whitney LeBlanc (00:19:56): So, we had a successful production in spite of the fact that the Klan was there. [crosstalk 00:20:02] And, uh, it- it was a significant production, and I was very proud of it, and so was Dick. Allyn Lawrence (00:20:10): Wow. Thank you for sharing about that. Whitney LeBlanc (00:20:14): Oh, you're welcome. Have you... Uh, the- the, uh, Towson paper, the school paper, the Spotlighter- Allyn Lawrence (00:20:25): Oh, The Towerlight? Whitney LeBlanc (00:20:29): Towerlight. The Towerlight has an article about it in there. Allyn Lawrence (00:20:32): I- I read that article, which is how I learned about your production of it. Whitney LeBlanc (00:20:37): Okay. Yeah, The Towerlight has some- Allyn Lawrence (00:20:39): Yeah. [crosstalk 00:20:42] Whitney LeBlanc (00:20:42): ... very- very detailed activity. Allyn Lawrence (00:20:46): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Um, okay. My next question, um, also by reading The Towerlight, I learned that you created, um, a theater group in Baltimore called Theatre U.? Whitney LeBlanc (00:21:01): That's correct. Allyn Lawrence (00:21:01): Uh, and my question is, can you tell us about that and what compelled you to create this group, and what happened with it? Whitney LeBlanc (00:21:11): Um, well, I was still teaching at Towson, um, I was married... Uh, during that time I was married to a- a dancer with the Paul Taylor Dance Company, and we were both interested in creating a theater program, uh, which we were stimulated to do by virtue of the desire to integrate... to use theater as a force of integrating society. So, we were able to, um, get the use of a chapel in the, uh, metropolit- uh, the, uh, Methodist church on Garrison, I think it was Garrison Boulevard, uh, and we created a theater program called Theatre U. And, uh, I, uh, encouraged and brought in one of my students from Towson University, Howard Rollins, to work with us in the Theatre U. program. And so, we combined a program of theater and dance at, uh, Theatre U., and I was doing that in the evening after teaching at Towson during the day. So, I was a pretty busy person (laughs) during that time. Allyn Lawrence (00:23:03): Were a lot of people eager to join this group once it wa- once it was created? Whitney LeBlanc (00:23:08): Uh, yes, yes. We- we had a nice activity as a result of it. But, uh, we did not sell enough tickets, and, uh, it was coming out-of-pocket. Most of the expenses for the theater program came out-of-pocket. We did have a- a teaching program on Saturdays for, uh, young students, a young dance program and a young theater program, but that and box office was not sufficiently, uh, enough to- to, uh, sustain the program. So, we- we maintained the program out-of-pocket for the time that it existed. Allyn Lawrence (00:23:59): And how long did it exist for? Whitney LeBlanc (00:24:01): Uh, about three years. Allyn Lawrence (00:24:02): Three years? Whitney LeBlanc (00:24:03): About three years. Allyn Lawrence (00:24:08): I'm sorry. I forget what- what year it started. Do you remember? Whitney LeBlanc (00:24:12): Uh, no. Allyn Lawrence (00:24:33): That's okay. I'll find it. Whitney LeBlanc (00:24:34): It was during the time, it was during the time I was at- Allyn Lawrence (00:24:36): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:24:37): ... during the time I was, uh, at Towson. Allyn Lawrence (00:24:40): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:24:44): There was another- another play. Did you find any response to A Man's a Man? Allyn Lawrence (00:24:51): No. Can you tell me about that? Whitney LeBlanc (00:24:51): The- the Brecht play? Huh? Allyn Lawrence (00:25:02): Can you tell me about that play? Whitney LeBlanc (00:25:03): Uh, one of the positive incomes of both A Man's a Man and People All Around.... Uh, do you have any- any records of Dwight Schultz, one of the students at, uh, Towson? Allyn Lawrence (00:25:26): No. Whitney LeBlanc (00:25:28): Dwight Schultz was one of the main... one of our most creative, uh, students, and I cast him in A Man's a Man and And People All Around. In People All Around, he was the sheriff who killed the three civil rights workers, and, uh, I did A Man's a Man by, um, I've forgotten the- the, uh, the name of the... But anyway, in, uh, Dwight Schultz was in A Man's a Man and And People All Around, and he was brilliant, and he was one of our, uh, students along with Howard Rollins who did very good things, I mean great things, in Hollywood. Uh, you ever hear of The A-Team? Allyn Lawrence (00:26:26): No. Whitney LeBlanc (00:26:26): And crazy Mu- Murdock in The A-Team? Allyn Lawrence (00:26:30): No. Whitney LeBlanc (00:26:31): This was one of the most prolific and talented students that came out of our program. Allyn Lawrence (00:26:39): Wow. Whitney LeBlanc (00:26:39): His name was Dwight Schultz, and he was on The A-Team for many years in Hollywood, and he was... played the character crazy Murdock on The A-Team. And he was one of our most, uh, well, the most, along with Howard Rollins, of, uh, the students to come out of our program at- at, uh, Towson. Allyn Lawrence (00:27:11): Wow. Did you keep in contact with any of your theater students after- Whitney LeBlanc (00:27:20): Yes. Allyn Lawrence (00:27:21): ... you left Towson? Whitney LeBlanc (00:27:22): Oh, definitely. With- with, uh, Dwight Schultz while he was in Hollywood and I was in Hollywood. I used to visit him frequently at his home. Uh, and, uh, Howard Rollins, of course. Um, but those were, uh, situations and occurrences many years after I left Towson- Allyn Lawrence (00:27:50): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:27:51): ... and after they had left Towson. Allyn Lawrence (00:28:01): Okay. My next question, um, is relating to what happened after Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination in '68. Um, after reading The Towerlight, um, I saw that it said that Towson didn't lower its flag to half-mast. And so, what I read is that you staged a one-man sit-in in Dr. Hawkins' office until he agreed to raise the flag. Um, do you, do you mind telling us about that? Whitney LeBlanc (00:28:36): As a matter of fact, that's all written here. Allyn Lawrence (00:28:39): Already there (laughs)? Whitney LeBlanc (00:28:41): I think, I think it probably would be, uh, most appropriate at this particular time. April 4th, 1968, Martin Luther King was killed. Baltimore was in a riot along with many other cities. Fires burned all over, the National Guard troops were patrolling most neighborhoods, schools and universities were closed. When things quieted down a bit and people began to move back... move around in shock, I went back to my job. The- Towson was closed then. Allyn Lawrence (00:29:20): Okay. Whitney LeBlanc (00:29:22): When I drove onto the campus, the flag was at full-staff. I went immediately to the president's office and inquired why the flag was not at half-staff. Dr. Hawkins replied that he had not been given any orders to lower it. I informed him that it was a national requirement out of respect, and all states were required to respond. I suggested that he call Governor Agnew, who was our governor (laughs), and find out why he was also, he was also required to do the same. I sat down, I said, "I will sit right here until the flag is taken to half-staff." He was pissed. He looked at me with disdain, and he was going to call security to have me removed. I told him, "Go right ahead. I'm not leaving until the flag is taken down," and they should be prepared to shoot me, because I'm not leaving peaceably until the flag was down. Whitney LeBlanc (00:30:33): He picked up the phone, called the governor's office, and got the message. When he... Then he called security, told them to "lower the flag to half-staff and take Mr. LeBlanc out with you." I said, "Thank you," and left. This meeting was a long way from the previous one when the Klan was supporting... threatening to appear. The worry beads... Well, during this Klan meeting, he g-... Dr. Hawkins gave me worry beads to support me during the Klan. The worry beads were not included, and neither he nor I were in the frame of mind at that time. I am sure Dr. Hawkins had his fill of me from that incident. But the flag was o- lowered after he got a call from... after he made a call to Governor Agnew. Allyn Lawrence (00:31:31): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:31:34): And that really got under his skin. Allyn Lawrence (00:31:38): Mm-hmm (affirmative). That took a lot of, a lot of courage. Whitney LeBlanc (00:31:45): Oh, yeah. Well, I was, I was fill... I was full of the hate and the, uh, bigotry of Towson- Allyn Lawrence (00:31:53): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:31:54): ... and at that point in my, uh, life Dr. Hawkins was a part of it. Allyn Lawrence (00:32:00): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:32:00): And I told him, "I'm not leaving. You'll have to shoot me to get me out of here, 'cause I'm not leaving until the flag is taken to half-staff." And that's the way I felt at that time. Allyn Lawrence (00:32:13): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Did it, did it occur relatively quickly, or did it take a few hours? Were you sitting in there the whole day, or...? Whitney LeBlanc (00:32:24): No, no. Uh-uh (negative). It was immediate. Allyn Lawrence (00:32:26): It was immediate? Whitney LeBlanc (00:32:28): It was immediate. As we're speaking, I told him to call Dr., uh... Governor Agnew. He did. He got word from Governor Agnew that it was all right to lower the flag. He said, "The flag will be lowered," and he called the staff, the police staff, to order them to lower the staff... "Lower the flag and take Mr. LeBlanc out with you (laughs)." And, uh, we're talking a whole episode of... between a half-hour and 45 minutes for that to happen. Allyn Lawrence (00:33:07): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:33:10): And the flag was lowered, and I didn't have any reason to go back- Allyn Lawrence (00:33:14): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:33:15): ... to his office. 'Cause I told him I'd be back if the flag is not lowered. Allyn Lawrence (00:33:23): Were you ever scared about the possibility of losing your job from- from doing that, or- Whitney LeBlanc (00:33:29): No, uh-uh (negative). Allyn Lawrence (00:33:29): No? Whitney LeBlanc (00:33:31): That didn't, that didn't occur to me at all. Allyn Lawrence (00:33:35): Hmm. Whitney LeBlanc (00:33:35): But he- he tried to fire me because of an incident that, uh... of- of having my car... There wa- there was so much bigotry and, uh, racial animosity to me. Uh, the- the police at Towson, uh, towed my car away in an incident that I had just gotten the fill of, and I was, I wa-... I knew exactly why they did it. They did it in retribution, uh, to all of the situation primarily because of the flag and other incidences. And, uh, I had just gotten my fill of the racial, uh, situation at Towson, and threatened Wayne- Wayne, uh... forgotten his name. The, uh, head... department of- of the, uh, security to bring my car back after it was illegally towed. And, uh, it was towed because I had been accustomed to driving my car up next to the theater department to unload equipment- Allyn Lawrence (00:35:23): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:35:24): ... and it was on one of those incidences, uh, that because my car was in an unloading or loading zone, uh, it was towed, and I had just gotten my fill of racial situations at Towson, and, uh, threatened Wayne [Shelley 00:35:49] was his name, and, uh, because of that Dr. Hawkins tried to fire me. And the teachers' association at Towson, uh, came to my rescue and said, "You can't fire him on the spot. You have to make a- a cause and submit a cause to the teachers' association," and, uh, he did. The teachers' association didn't accept it, and, uh, he withdrew his- his, uh, his- his firing, Dr. Hawkins did. Allyn Lawrence (00:36:32): I didn't know that occurred. I didn't see any record of that. Whitney LeBlanc (00:36:38): Well, it's not recorded anywhere. Allyn Lawrence (00:36:40): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:36:41): It's not recorded anywhere. It's just from my memory. Allyn Lawrence (00:36:54): So, was this continued animosity from Hawkins and the rest of administration ultimately what led you to leave Towson, or was there another reason? Whitney LeBlanc (00:37:09): No. No, no. Allyn Lawrence (00:37:09): No? [crosstalk 00:37:10] Whitney LeBlanc (00:37:09): I left because at the same time all of this was going on... Excuse me... The Maryland Center for Public Broadcasting was built. And the director of the program at the Maryland Center for Public Broadcasting came to speak at a opening session of the faculty, and introduced us to public broadcasting. At that time, educational television had become... emerged into PBS, and PBS was just forming throughout the nation. And PBS was supported by Congress, and PBS was... and the Maryland Center for Public Broadcasting had the foresight to build one of the finest public broadcasting centers in the nation, and Maryland, San Francisco, New York, Chicago and, uh, one... and Boston were the PBS centers that provided programming for the entire PBS system. Whitney LeBlanc (00:38:35): And at that point, I was contacted to become the television director for the series Our Street, produced in Baltimore out at, uh, [Boland 00:38:54]... now, no, where- where, uh... well, right outside of Baltimore, and where the PBS station is. And I produced and directed a series called Our Street, and put Howard Rollins into it as the star. Allyn Lawrence (00:39:11): Wow. Whitney LeBlanc (00:39:12): And for five years we did over 85 PBS programs out of Maryland, and that was why I left Towson, and I have on my records several, uh, letters of congratulations and references from Dr. Hawkins. Here's one: On August 8, 1969, Dr. Hawkins said, and I quote, "Dear Mr. LeBlanc, I am acknowledging your letter of August 5th and accepting your resignation from Towson State University... College." It was still sta- Towson State College. Allyn Lawrence (00:40:06): Yeah. Whitney LeBlanc (00:40:07): "We have a- appreciated numerous contributions you have made to the college during the last several years, and we shall watch with interest your further contributions to the world of theater. All best wishes to you in whatever post you undertake. Sincerely yours, Earl T. Hawkins, President. P.S. In the near future, I shall be glad to write letters of recommendation as I promised." So, that was how I left Towson to go to the Maryland Center for Public Broadcasting, and that was in, uh, 1969, August 8th. And the first show that I aired, premiered from the Maryland Center for Public ra- Broadcasting was in September 1969, with Howard Rollins in the lead. So, all of that came together as a result of my having been at Towson. Allyn Lawrence (00:41:23): That's nice that you could continue to... could continue on with Howard Rollins, 'cause it seems like you two had a great rapport during your time at Towson- Whitney LeBlanc (00:41:33): Fantastic. Allyn Lawrence (00:41:33): ... and could continue sharing your love of theater with him. Whitney LeBlanc (00:41:36): Yes, yes. That was very good. And I- I stayed in touch all during that time with his family- Allyn Lawrence (00:41:46): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:41:47): ... we- who were still in, uh, in Baltimore and regretting his death, and I had great empathy with him during his life. Allyn Lawrence (00:42:00): Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, what would you consider your greatest achievement, um, during your time at Towson? Whitney LeBlanc (00:42:14): Um, the production And People All Around. Um, it was much more powerful than I anticipated. Uh, my relationship with Gillespie continued throughout. Uh, I happened to have visited with him when his second wife, uh, was inaugurated as president of Towson, uh, who was (laughs), um, one of our students that, uh, was in the department, and ultimately, uh, ended up marrying Gillespie, Maravene- Maravene Sheppard, Maravene Gillespie. She... You're familiar with the president of Towson? The first woman president of Towson, Maravene Sheppard? Maravene Gillespie? Allyn Lawrence (00:43:36): I remember hearing about her, but I don't, I don't know that much. Ashley, do you? Whitney LeBlanc (00:43:43): Well, you probably shouldn't know more than the fact that she was married to Dick Gillespie, and when she became president, they had... She and Dick Gillespie had a reunion of the Towson faculty, uh, and I was there. And this was, I don't remember exactly when that was, but that was just, uh, w- shortly before, uh, Dick Gillespie died. And, uh, he and I renewed our relationship, and, uh, we- we remained in contact and friends all of those years after I left Towson, and all of the students that had been... that had gone through the department came back to that reunion, and I don't have a- a date of when that was it's... at hand, but it's, uh, it was in 20-something. You c- you can probably do better research when you find out when Maravene Gillespie was president. It was when she was inaugurated as president. [crosstalk 00:45:10] Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:45:11): That would have been 2012, I think. Whitney LeBlanc (00:45:13): All right, whenever that [crosstalk 00:45:15] was that, yeah. And that's when I went back for the reunion, and Dick Gillespie and I came together again for the last time. Uh, and it was just marvelous, and, uh, we maintained and continued to express our relationship and friendship, and I have his copy of his book Papa Toussaint, which he wrote and gave to me. And I... We exchanged books. I had written books, and he had written books, and we exchanged books at that time when, uh, Maravene was inaugurated in '12. So, that was the last time I saw him before he died, and, uh, he- he did a marvelous thing for Towson. He integrated the faculty and established the theater department. He was a great guy, and I loved him. Great guy, and I loved him. Whitney LeBlanc (00:46:23): Next question. Allyn Lawrence (00:46:26): Um, so those- those were the end of my questions talking about your experiences, but, um, do you recommend anyone else we should reach out to for our project and learning, uh, more about Towson's history of diversity? Whitney LeBlanc (00:46:48): Uh, this is really farfetched, and I don't know... You have, and I don't remember... Let's see, can I find... so you can be... You have a doctor there in psychology [crosstalk 00:47:08]- Allyn Lawrence (00:47:08): Um- Whitney LeBlanc (00:47:10): ... Betty- Allyn Lawrence (00:47:10): Oh. Whitney LeBlanc (00:47:14): ... I ra- for- um, I'm lost for a last name, but that's what I'm looking for. Oh, uh, uh, [Baylor 00:47:35]. Dr. Betty Baylor is her name. Allyn Lawrence (00:47:44): From the psychology department? Whitney LeBlanc (00:47:48): What? Allyn Lawrence (00:47:49): You said the psych- Whitney LeBlanc (00:47:51): I don't know... I- I thought she was in, uh, psychiatry s- or psychology, something like that. Allyn Lawrence (00:47:56): Oh. Whitney LeBlanc (00:47:56): But she's there. Dr. Betty Baylor. And for coincidences, Betty Fletcher Baylor was the first... I- I'm not sure about the- the, uh, logic, uh, here or the- the sequence, but she also went to Towson as one of the first Black professors, and she just happened to be the daughter of one of my best friends. Her mother was Dr. Winona Fletcher, who was in theater and who was the reason for me being in theater, and with whom I had worked for many, many years since the '50s in terms of my career as a theater professional. And it just so happens that her daughter ended up going to Towson as one of the, well, I- I- I venture to say next Black professor after I integrated, and her name was Fletcher, Betty Baylor. And I thought that that was a coincidence of significant importance to me because the daughter of one of my best friends ultimately succeeded me many years later- Allyn Lawrence (00:49:56): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:49:57): ... as a member of Towson's integration system, uh, be- fa- uh, integrated faculty. I- I don't know where that falls in line, but (laughs) it was significant [crosstalk 00:50:12] to me and ironic that my best friend's daughter ended up being at Towson as the next, uh, Black member of the faculty. So, she's still there. She's still there. You probably- Allyn Lawrence (00:50:31): I will, I will look into her. Thank you. Whitney LeBlanc (00:50:34): Yeah, yeah. Allyn Lawrence (00:50:42): Well, that was my last, that was my last question. Um- Whitney LeBlanc (00:50:46): Oh, I... Uh- Allyn Lawrence (00:50:48): I just wanted to reiterate how nice it was to talk to you, because I've been seeing your name so many times in the archives. Whitney LeBlanc (00:50:57): Is that right? Allyn Lawrence (00:50:57): You're kind of like my hero now after everything you've done, so- Whitney LeBlanc (00:51:00): Well, thank you. Allyn Lawrence (00:51:01): ... it was amazing to listen to you and hear your stories, and thank you for all you did. Whitney LeBlanc (00:51:06): Well, thank you for your research, and you're a student? Allyn Lawrence (00:51:10): Yeah. Whitney LeBlanc (00:51:11): Are you a student? I think this is marvelous, that, uh, what you're doing, and I get reports and know that the Klan is still very strong in that area of the location of Towson, and, uh, we hope one day that they will just be eliminated from the scene- Allyn Lawrence (00:51:31): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:51:32): ... and, uh, I'm very pleased and very proud and very grateful for your research and your in- curiosity, and- and the work that you're doing. And, uh, I will... What do I do? I just go to the l- uh, online, uh- Allyn Lawrence (00:51:58): Oh, to s- to see the interview once it's done? Whitney LeBlanc (00:52:01): No, you told me I needed to verify some, uh, statement, sign a statement or something. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:52:09): Yes, the release form. Whitney LeBlanc (00:52:10): Yeah, right- Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:52:12): Yeah. Whitney LeBlanc (00:52:12): ... release form. I'm sorry. Release form. So, I just pull that up and fill it out? Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:52:19): Yeah. So, I made it a fillable form. The only piece that you would need to print it out to do is to sign it so that we have your- your signature. Um, and at that point I don't know if you have a scanner or if it's easier for you to- Whitney LeBlanc (00:52:34): Fax. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:52:34): ... to mail it, or fax if that's- Whitney LeBlanc (00:52:36): We have a fax. Yeah. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:52:37): Yeah, I... We can get you our fax number, um, so you can- Whitney LeBlanc (00:52:40): Well, that'll be fine. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:52:42): All right, wonderful. Whitney LeBlanc (00:52:43): All right, I'll- Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:52:44): And- Whitney LeBlanc (00:52:44): Go ahead. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:52:45): I was just gonna say, I mean, I know that you are, you are reading from some things. I mean, if there's anything else that you would like to contribute so that we can better represent your voice and memories, we're [crosstalk 00:52:59]... we... I mean, we would be honored to- Whitney LeBlanc (00:52:59): The thing that I was... No, the thing that I was reading from was my journal of my life. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:53:07): Okay. Whitney LeBlanc (00:53:09): And that is privileged information from my... for my children. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:53:15): Sure. Whitney LeBlanc (00:53:16): I will not send anything printable from that. I- I was using it as reference because it was all organized and, uh, it was, it was easier to do than try to remember. And the facts- Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:53:31): Of course. Whitney LeBlanc (00:53:31): ... were actual. So, that's what I was reading from, my own personal journal, and diary if you speak, if you, if you wish. But, um, I will certainly go to the release form and, uh, print it out, and, uh, get your fax number and- and send a sig- signed copy of it. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:53:54): Wonderful. Whitney LeBlanc (00:53:55): Thank you very [crosstalk 00:53:56]. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:53:55): We- Allyn Lawrence (00:53:56): Thank you. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:53:56): ... thank you. Whitney LeBlanc (00:53:58): You guys are doing a great job at Towson, and I [crosstalk 00:54:02] really, I- I really loved my time, and- and, uh, have great admiration for Dick Gillespie. I don't know how he's being regarded, but he was a powerful force there from the time he was there, early '60s, uh, 'cause he'd esta- established the department and brought me in, Georgia Baker and Manlove, uh, to- to Towson. Whitney LeBlanc (00:54:34): To... And- and, oh, the thing that I want you to know, and I forgot to tell you. The theater at Towson was designed by me, and nobody knows that but Georgia Baker and Dick Gillespie. And what happened was, when the theater was designed, when we were contributing comments about what we wanted in the theater, the architect came to Dick Gillespie and Georgia Baker, and asked us for our recommendations. Because I was a set designer, I laid it out on paper. I created a blueprint of the theater, stage, the, uh, technical workshop, the- the, uh, depa- desi- uh, wardrobe design department, the sight lines in the theater, the way the seats w- that Dick Gillespie wanted were laid out, I did all of that on paper in a blueprint and gave it to the architect. Stupid me, I never kept a copy of what I gave to him. Allyn Lawrence (00:55:56): Oh, no. Whitney LeBlanc (00:55:57): Years later, after the theater was built, after I had left Towson for many years, I was invited back to see a production by Dick Gillespie, and when I walked into the theater, I said, "This is what I designed." The architect reproduced all of the designs that I had given him as recommendations for what the theater department wanted. The layout of the seats, the sight lines, the- the, uh, no- no aisles, the roundabout seating, the crossed, uh, thing, the spaces in it, everything, the revolver on the stage, was all mine. The only people that knew that I designed that was Dick Gillespie and Georgia Baker, and Dick Gillespie said, the last time we met, when his wife was now department, I mean, chair, uh, president, he said, "I'm going to rectify that and have a plaque put on the wall of the theater that you designed it. I don't think it ever happened because Dick got ill shortly after I left at that time. But the theater that's there is the theater I designed as a recommendation for the architect. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:57:31): Is that the one in the [Koufax 00:57:33] Building? Whitney LeBlanc (00:57:35): The only theater [crosstalk 00:57:36], the only theater (laughs) on the campus. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:57:36): Okay. Whitney LeBlanc (00:57:42): The mai- the theater. The- the- the main theater for the theater department. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:57:45): Okay. Whitney LeBlanc (00:57:46): I don't know what building it's in, but- Allyn Lawrence (00:57:49): Yeah. Um, I think that's... It's called Kaplan now. It's in the Center for Fine Arts. Whitney LeBlanc (00:57:55): [crosstalk 00:57:55] Yes, yes. The s- the theater that's in the s- at the Center of Fine Arts. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:58:01): Okay. Allyn Lawrence (00:58:02): Um, I'm in the marching band, and so we have many rehearsals there. It is a very nice theater. So, you did a great job (laughs). Whitney LeBlanc (00:58:08): The one with the revolve- Allyn Lawrence (00:58:10): Yeah. Whitney LeBlanc (00:58:10): ... in the middle of it? Yeah, that's the theater I designed. And the open- open theater- Allyn Lawrence (00:58:15): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Whitney LeBlanc (00:58:17): ... all of that, the whole theater proje- the whole theater portion of that facility is what I designed and gave to the architect, but I never kept a copy. I just gave him my plans. And these were our recommendations of what we wanted, and he was a smart architect, 'cause he just copied what I gave him. Allyn Lawrence (00:58:47): Hmm. Whitney LeBlanc (00:58:48): He just copied what I gave him. But the only people that knew that I designed that theater were Dick Gillespie and Georgia Baker, and both of them are now dead. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:58:59): Well, we'll see what we might be able to do [crosstalk 00:59:02]. Whitney LeBlanc (00:59:01): (laughs) Well, that's... Thank you. I would there re- there be very pleased. Dick Gillespie said he was gonna have a plaque put on the wall, but he- he got... he was sick. After I met him in '12, that's when we talked about it. He was, he was not too well then. And his wife wasn't either, Maravene. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:59:24): Yeah, she wasn't. Whitney LeBlanc (00:59:25): She wasn't. She wasn't well then. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:59:27): Yeah. Whitney LeBlanc (00:59:28): But that was the last time we got together, and we spent many, many hours, joyful hours, celebrating. And so, I don't think we went to sleep through the whole ti- whole time we were there, for the couple of days. But, uh, just wanted to share that with you. Allyn Lawrence (00:59:45): No, thank you. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:59:47): Thank you. Whitney LeBlanc (00:59:48): Okay. Thank you. And I'll fill out this form and- and send it to you with your fax number. Ashley Todd-Diaz (00:59:55): Wonderful, thank you. Whitney LeBlanc (00:59:56): Any- anything else you guys need? Allyn Lawrence (00:59:59): Um, do you mind if I take a picture, um, of all of us right (laughs) now? I can do it on my computer. Whitney LeBlanc (01:00:04): That's the... How can you (laughs) do that? Am I all right? Allyn Lawrence (01:00:08): Yeah, your all right. Okay. Three, two, one... Okay, thank you. Whitney LeBlanc (01:00:15): Okay (laughs). Thank you. Thank you very much. Allyn Lawrence (01:00:18): Yeah. Whitney LeBlanc (01:00:19): It was [crosstalk 01:00:19]- Ashley Todd-Diaz (01:00:19): Thank you. Allyn Lawrence (01:00:19): Have a great rest of your day. Whitney LeBlanc (01:00:21): Sure, and you too. I'm gonna get to that, uh, release form now. Thank you. Ashley Todd-Diaz (01:00:25): Thank you. Allyn Lawrence (01:00:26): Thank you. Whitney LeBlanc (01:00:26): Bye-bye. Ashley Todd-Diaz (01:00:26): Okay, bye.