Interview with Sarah Kitlowski

Todd-Diaz, Ashley: I will leave you to it. Sarah K: Alright! Abby Bowling: Okay, so like I said in the email, this is fairly laid back. I'm not trying to get any sort of like, Abby Bowling: linear narrative or anything from you, just trying to like fill in some of the gaps that I have found in my research.

Abby Bowling: So, I organized it kind of like origins, people, activities is broadly what I want to ask you about. So Abby Bowling: to get started with the origins: the main group that I've been looking at is Towson Action Group, from which I've found the names Neale Stokes, Jordan Feder and Tanza Coursey. Abby Bowling: I don't know if any of those names are familiar. Sarah K: No.

Abby Bowling: They seem to be the main organizers of this group, and they weren't always Towson Action group. They actually started in 2000 doing election stuff for the Green Party and endorsing Ralph Nader. And then they switched Abby Bowling: Ralph Nader. And then they switched, around... Abby Bowling: like, a little bit after 9/11, which is what sparked my interest in this time period, because I was like, "Surely there's some organizing and some activism happening around that." Abby Bowling: So they did that

Abby Bowling: 2000 to fall of 2001, and then in like late fall, early spring of 2002 is when Towson Action Group really got started. So, Abby Bowling: I guess I'll ask you: When did you start at Towson? And what groups were active at that time? Sarah K: So I started Towson in the fall of 2002, and I lived on campus for freshman and sophomore year. So I was kinda in in the-day-to day side of things, so. And I was there for 4 years. And graduated in Sarah K: the spring of 2006.

Sarah K: What's interesting is Sarah K: like I was... Sarah K: I was fairly involved in- I mean, it's a big campus, right- So I was fairly involved, though, in Sarah K: the on-campus anti-war

Sarah K: reaction, Sarah K: and then some of the smaller student movements going on. There was a lot of solidarity with the Aramark Sarah K: employees. Sarah K: And then, and because of like, where I was, so I was in Newell,

Sarah K: which is right next to, Sarah K: um, Sarah K: Newell Hall dining, Sarah K: upstairs, and then I'm trying to remember, like what would have existed then.. I don't know. Newell Hall still was upstairs, and then you had The Den downstairs, and so that, you know, there was a lot of Aramark employees there. And then...

Sarah K: And then the book of the year Sarah K: that they always pick, that was, I believe in the 2002-2003 semester was this book "Nickel and Dimed" Sarah K: by this sociologist Sarah K: who, you know, she did the experiment of like living at minimum wage for a year or two. So like that... it was interesting that, like the university, chose that as, like the... This is the book we're reading, and then there are all we also, you know, continued reviews on the students behalf of "Are we supporting...like, what's the right

Sarah K: way to support Aramark employees?" Sarah K: So all of this to say, I never heard the name TAG. Abby Bowling: Really? Sarah K: Yeah, and...

Sarah K: Yeah, like, I went back through like old conversations. So I was in, I was a philosophy, major. I started off as EMF, and then switched pretty quickly to philosophy. And a lot of the people in my group Sarah K: were, you know, dual majors, philosophy and Sarah K: very politically involved, very much involved with... Like one of my close friends, Nick, he was known as "The anti-war guy", not just at Towson University, but also like in Towson, like the town. Like he was, the like lightning rod for more anti-war protests. And I mean it was hot then. Sarah K: And I...You know, I'll put out to all of my philosophy people, because we're all pretty well connected still, if they heard of TAG.

Sarah K: But, Sarah K: I don't remember Sarah K: at all Sarah K: that being,

Sarah K: like, a known... Sarah K: like a known, organized movement or things like that. And then like I said, thinking back on it, like Sarah K: I knew the Food Not Bombs people. Are you...Do you know who Food Not Bombs is? Okay. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I'm gonna keep checking myself to be like, "How old am I? 40? Right?" And so like, I just want to double check. I promise not to talk about like Blockbuster Video or anything like that. Okay. So like, you had Food Not Bombs, which, they didn't really organize in Towson. They were out of Sarah K: Waverly, out of like...Charles village in Baltimore was their house at the time. Actually on...

Sarah K: right next to my mom's house, weirdly enough. So at the corner of Greenmount and 35th, on one side of the street is the city, and the other side is bleeding into the Hopkins campus. So Food Not Bombs was there, but they were connected and loosely organized with the people in Towson doing, there was, you know a decent amount of like official and unofficial- and that's the thing- there was a lot of like, 'unofficial' action Sarah K: that was spilling out and then like, Sarah K: even with the... Sarah K: I'm trying to think. Like, I think, that there wasn't like, a

Sarah K: walkout... Sarah K: There was a lot of Sarah K: back and forth with Sarah K: the Aramark contract.

Sarah K: And I wouldn't be surprised if some of that may have ended up, you know, "whitewashed", we'll say, in the Towerlight. Am I allowed... are you allowed to still use that word? "Whitewashed"? Sarah K: I think so. I don't know. Don't cancel me. Like that... once upon a time that's something totally different. But like, as I came out of my mouth, I was like, "Oh, shit!", you know. Oh, sorry. I'm gonna watch my language completely, anyway. Okay, ignore that. It may have been spun in a way through Towerlight, although Towerlight generally was pretty good about Sarah K: covering Sarah K: issues that kind of look like the students and the administration were at odds.

Sarah K: You know, I think that there were for sure some things that were pulled. Sarah K: I'm trying to think of...Like, in my brain, I know I can think of one specific issue, or... I'm trying to like, Sarah K: put facts around the one thing that we knew that no matter what, Towerlight was never gonna publish it because it was just too ugly on what it would look like from Towson, from the administration. But to go back to the Aramark thing.. Like, when I looked up TAG after you mentioned them, I was trying to figure out like what was their scope? And I wasn't sure how much it was Sarah K: anti-war. My thought was if it was on campus, they were probably focused on workers rights, because that was the one thing that you would see. And it's pretty amazing how even though that was

Sarah K: 20 years ago, it's the same thing that I think people Sarah K: have a hard time figuring out where the line is right now, with workers rights and wanting to fight for a living wage, and at the same time Sarah K: sometimes, although well meaning, putting themselves at odds against the workers who like, yeah, of course, they want to be paid more, but more than anything, they want to be paid, period. And so, you can have well-meaning people from the outside interfering on behalf of somebody who didn't actually ask for like, a 'white knight' or a savior to come in. And that was definitely part of the undertone, right? It's that you have, Sarah K: like, a bunch of middle class kids who come from good families, who are able to afford Towson tuition. Some of them are like living on campus, not working, and all of that. Like...

Sarah K: trying to say, "Hey, we're here for you, person who took two buses to serve macaroni and cheese to cranky 19-year-olds", like, "Don't worry. We're on your side". And so there was a little bit of like, yeah, it's great that from a high level you support Towson really looking at the fairness of the contract, and the working conditions and the living wage, and all of that, Sarah K: but Sarah K: also like...hmm. Sarah K: So I think that that's why a lot of the energy of just...

Sarah K: youth- Sarah K: disenchanted youth- wanting to feel like they had efficacy in a political arena, kept going back to the anti-war thing because it was like an endless issue. You know, you could always get mad about it. At that point, new stuff was happening every day. Sarah K: And yeah, it was endless. And the administration wasn't fighting it at all. If Towson wanted to, you know, I think that there were like, Sarah K: there were a number of university wide... Like, I think people, I think Nick may have

Sarah K: pushed the University to officially declare us as 'anti-war', or something like that. I'll put you in touch with Nick Sokolow, the anti-war guy, he would be able to give you all of it. I mean, yeah, which is so funny, because, like now, he's a lawyer. And there's another guy- a lot of the philosophy people ended up being lawyers- Justin Schwemmer. I'll put you in touch with him. He's now also a lawyer. He, I think, does a lot of like... Sarah K: I don't think he's a defense attorney, but I think he's done like union rights and things like that. They would remember, too. But Nick was like the anti-war guy, and he knew Sarah K: how to like mobilize people to show up. And, you know, I think there may have been like, a sit in, or something like it, but there were a couple of things. But the big thing was, the university was like, "Go. You want to argue against like, Bush and the election and troops and all of that kind of stuff?" Like Sarah K: "Fine." Whereas, you know, the workers right stuff they were like,

Sarah K: "Do you want lunch tomorrow?" You know. Sarah K: Anyway, that was a really...that was like a 10 minute answer to like, one question, so I will- Abby Bowling: That's okay. Sarah K: -close my mouth right now.

Abby Bowling: So, Abby Bowling: I guess we'll bounce around because that raised a couple of questions. One of my questions was about like, the makeup of the people that you were organizing with. But you had said a lot of like middle class, a lot of, I presume white students. Was that an obstacle or a barrier to Abby Bowling: organizing? Or did...was that something that actually Abby Bowling: helped in interacting with like, university police, things like that?

Sarah K: I would say, you know, at least in in our world it was fairly...it was fairly diverse, Sarah K: you know, in terms of like, Sarah K: race, Sarah K: gender,

Sarah K: gender identification and sexual preference, age. You know we had some people in the organizing world who were non-traditional students, who were returning students. Sarah K: Yeah, I would say that Sarah K: we... Sarah K: The people who are underrepresented were likely

Sarah K: students who were very much, like, Sarah K: they had time for school, but not for the luxury of, like, college culture. Sarah K: You know, like you're talking about people who, they may be still living at home, or they may be, you know, not living on their own. But like, they are working, and not like a part time job, but like they are working full time and fitting school in. And they are, you know, like not just commuter students. They are like Sarah K: they're here for school, and they don't have time to, you know, put signs up or stuff like that.

Abby Bowling: Right. Sarah K: I'm trying to think about, you know... I'll say this, though. One of the coolest things that was happening, and Sarah K: Brendan, who... Did they connect you with Brendan Curran? Okay, have you talked to him yet? Abby Bowling: I haven't heard back from him yet, but I reached out.

Sarah K: Okay, I'll hit him up and tell him to, you know, "Look alive, soldier!". So, Sarah K: Brendan was a really cool connection in that whole world. So you have to remember, so like, in the 2002-2003 school year, that Sarah K: was, you know, every day we're deploying troops. They're making, you know, everything has spilled over from Afghanistan into Iraq. You have No Blood for Oil and the Food Not Bombs movements like, getting really heated up on the east coast. You have larger movements going on. Yeah, there are like these secondary things, but like, that was a big thing. And then you have Towson as a campus which is Sarah K: primarily liberal, just in terms of like, geographically, it's in a liberal area. It tends to attract more students than that, however, because it's a very good state school, and it is really good with options for students coming back with the GI bill. And they also

Sarah K: have like an ROTC that, at least once upon a time was strong, and so that would feed people out into the military. So you had a bunch of returning veterans Sarah K: coming in with the GI bill. And so 2002-2003, it was like, you know I don't want to say like the 'Great Divide', but from my- Sarah K: from what I've heard, that it was not a campus that felt safe for returning veterans to participate in college life. And so a lot of them would end up in fraternities. Specifically, Lambda Chi. I think Lambda Chi probably had the highest amount of Sarah K: veterans in it, which is interesting because they actually had their charter revoked like 2 years before, probably for partying too much or something like that. So they didn't even officially exist, but they unofficially existed. And so once again, you have this like, yeah, they got...you know. You have the Towson University administration being like, and I guess the Greek life world saying, "Hey, they broke rules. They party too much, or dah-dah-dah". It wasn't hazing, but it was something like, you know, they are not official.

Sarah K: And then you have the super liberal campus, but then you have students who are choosing to return, sometimes in uniform, depending on what their day looked like, and they are in a campus where it's like, Sarah K: not necessarily politically safe for them to go. And then Brendan Curran joins in 2003, Sarah K: fresh in from overseas. Like a, you know, card carrying, "I voted for G.W. Bush" right? Sarah K: But, he is amazing and interesting and diverse, and jumps into philosophy.

Sarah K: So he joined the Philosophy Department, and that cracked a lot of stuff open, because here he is, sitting in classes and after classes, and hanging out and partying with all of us who are like, you know, Sarah K: could not be more, you know, "burn down the man". Sarah K: And then we got exposure to, all of a sudden, people like who are... not pro-war, but like, who have been in it. They're not some anonymous like 'them versus us', they're real people. Which meant that you have all of these pretty liberal people, at least out of the Linthicum world (which was like English, and writing and sociology and anthropology, philosophy, women's studies, Sarah K: religious studies, you know, like all of us who are kind of in and around there) now, bonding with Lambda Chi, which is all of these... And so it didn't really....

Sarah K: It didn't change, I don't think, anybody's personal opinion, but, like all of a sudden, it wasn't a 'us versus them', even though the same things were organizing. And I bet you, if you talk to Nick and you talk to Brendan -well, Brendan was kind of like on the other side of it- but I bet you if you were to talk to Nick, he would say that. Because again, you have "the anti-war guy", who then becomes really great friends with the face of, Sarah K: you know, progressive military. And like, that kind of changed the course of it. How they may have interacted with TAG? Again, I'm not sure, because that seemed like Sarah K: the... Sarah K: The workers' rights protest,

Sarah K: it seemed to fizzle out. And then you had, like secondary political movements. And then, like the libertarian party. Sarah K: That kind of emerged kind of as a response to some weird Sarah K: like, the Republican party stuff popping up, but yeah, anyway. Yet another extra long answer to a question. Abby Bowling: No, those are the best kinds of answers.

Abby Bowling: Okay. So you said that a lot of the Linthicum majors were kind of a big source of people. So you mentioned Joanne Pilardi. Abby Bowling: In an article I came across Heather Hax. She's still a professor at Towson, actually. I don't know if you're familiar with her. Sarah K: What does she teach? Abby Bowling: Sociology.

Sarah K: Hmm! I don't know her. I knew...from sociology I just knew Matt Durrington, who was a professor- Abby Bowling: Okay. Okay. Sarah K: - I think in 2000. Sarah K: I think he started in 2003, he may have started in 2002. He was brand new, and he I know he's still around. I think he's the chair or vice chair of sociology and anthropology.

Abby Bowling: Oh, Abby Bowling: okay. Sarah K: Yeah. Abby Bowling: Was there any other professors or faculty who were really supportive or engaged with

Abby Bowling: student movements? Sarah K: The two that were are not alive anymore. Abby Bowling: Okay. Sarah K: Dr. Fuchs, Walt Fuchs.

Abby Bowling: Yep. Sarah K: And Sarah K: Dr. Pojman, Paul Pojman. Sarah K: He was

Sarah K: absolutely on the front lines, and in Baltimore, too, as well. Sarah K: Yeah, both of them. Sarah K: That would be a good question to ask other people, too. So, Dr. Pilardi Sarah K: is probably the best like, currently available. Oh! Is Steve Scales, Dr. Scales still around?

Sarah K: He's also in philosophy. I would track him down. I know he's around and he Sarah K: for a while was the faculty sponsor for the Philosophy Forum, which there's a lot of crossover between what was happening politically and then what kind of existential issues would pop up in the Philosophy Forum. He'd be another one to track down through the Philosophy department. Abby Bowling: Okay, yeah. I did come across Philosophy Forum. Sarah K: Yeah, that was-

Abby Bowling: Yeah. Sarah K: -that was our baby. Haha! Abby Bowling: Okay. Abby Bowling: So,

Abby Bowling: I guess I'll ask you about administration next. So Abby Bowling: in 2002, Abby Bowling: spring of 2002, Perkins stepped down. So it was the semester right before you came to Towson. He was criticized for spending a lot of money on a house and on a medallion for his inauguration, and after that Dan Jones was the Interim President, for, I believe, the next academic year. So your first year, and then Robert Caret or Carrot, for the rest of the years. Those are just the Presidents. Obviously, like provosts and Deans, are fairly involved with students. Abby Bowling: Was there any administration that you had a

Abby Bowling: particularly good or bad interaction with? Like, you said that they encouraged anti-war activity. Were they supportive of that kind of thing, or did they Abby Bowling: try to shut down things? Sarah K: There was not... So, the President being like, known and visible at the student level, really is a newer phenomenon at Towson. Sarah K: It was not, the Administration. There was no concept of the higher level administration being accessible or in service to the students.

Sarah K: Regarding the workers' rights thing there very much was Sarah K: an understanding that Sarah K: "Oh, it's not Towson's fault. They hired Aramark. It's Aramark's fault. If you're-" Abby Bowling: Hmm.

Sarah K: -"protesting someone, protest Aramark." Sarah K: "We just had to hire somebody. It's their workers, it's their contract, it's their Sarah K: thing." Sarah K: And then there was the like...

Sarah K: in terms of like, what was allowed politically, the good side of the administration not being super visible is it did feel like it was an environment where you could protest, speak. Sarah K: There wasn't the concept of like, that needs to happen in a certain place, you know. Like, yeah, there was the like...you are supposed to, if you are setting up a table or handing out flyers or all that, I guess there was like, "you are supposed to do it this way", or ask this permission, or get this and all that. Sarah K: It was kind of known that like, if you're doing it at the Union, Sarah K: yes. But like, once you make it up the hill, and you get to that breezeway, or whatever, and actually once you take that path away from the Union, and you're heading towards the other side of campus,

Sarah K: like, you could kind of do what you wanted to do. Sarah K: And there really wasn't, Sarah K: you know, administration wasn't gonna come. And it was kind of self-policing, too. I remember...now I can't. There was a more Sarah K: conservative student group. And

Sarah K: it's not me intending to be disrespectful, it's that I really kind of stayed out of it. I kind of got like "not my fight". But Sarah K: I don't remember if it was religious-based or political, that the idea was they were being a little bit too proselytizing or too like, Sarah K: pushy with people walking by, or recruitment, or something like that, and that was brought up at Student Council by other groups. But like, it felt like Student Council was the one that was kind of regulating it. And like when Sarah K: you would have- and I'm sure you guys probably still have this. Do you ever have, like, some super religious person wander on campus with like a plug in, bring-your-own speaker system, and they stand there, and they try to tell you that you're going to hell, and everybody sits down and heckles them, and

Sarah K: it's a good old time for everybody? Yeah, it was like...it... That kind of stuff was good because it was nice that it felt like there wasn't like, "Oh, mommy and Daddy administrator coming in to save us". Like, no, we're adults and this is our availability to have Sarah K: discourse. I would say that the Aramark thing was really the only time that there was a concept of like, the administration stepping in. I take that back. There was Sarah K: the Sarah K: Jewish,

Sarah K: Student Jewish- I don't remember what the name of that group was then, because it changed names a couple of times. But the Sarah K: student Jewish group wanted to find a safe place to construct... Sarah K: God, don't tell my Jewish grandmother that I cannot think of the name of the little house that they build. Hmm! Sarah K: So this is what happens when you're like, culturally but not religiously Jewish.

Sarah K: They have a thing that they had to build, and all of that. And I remember it being like, the Administration really stepping in to make sure that Sarah K: they could put it- it was across the street from where Newell Hall was, because I remember you could look out and see it, but that was before they built a bunch of other stuff. But they did step in and say, "Hey, this is your area. It's a dedicated area. It is clear. Do what you need to do." You know, "We are protecting and preserving it." I think that's really the only other time they felt like the administration on high cared about the day-to-day Sarah K: student stuff. Abby Bowling: That's really interesting. I would

Abby Bowling: like to find, kind of where that change happened, because even... Abby Bowling: I mean, not that far out from this time period, 2008-ish, Abby Bowling: There were discussions about this new protest policy, and students were upset because they felt like it was very limiting, and that student voices weren't included in it. And then, you know, administration, police, student affairs started getting really involved in student demonstrations. Abby Bowling: So that's an interesting change.

Sarah K: It would be interesting to figure out what that precipitating thing was, because, like I said, I was on campus all the time through 2006. And I mean, you know, like, my big thing was I ran the Towson Philosophy Forum for a year. And then I can't remember Sarah K: who I took it over from and who I handed off to. I know Alex, I think, may have taken it the year after. Brendan would know, too. But we really... we weren't doing anything super hot button. We were organizing nerdy lectures that were the same issues but with fancier words, you know. Like we were like selling T-shirts and stuff like that, but yeah. For us, I mean, we were particularly unmanageable. But for us, we were like, Sarah K: you know, "Nobody actually owns any of this, so we're gonna do it wherever we want." There wasn't any like idea of, you know... And even the anti-war protests the idea that like, Sarah K: "Oh, there's rules around it?" was like, what? How are you gonna regulate that? That was not part of that culture at all. So I don't know if there was

Sarah K: an event or an incident or... Sarah K: 2006... So Sarah K: 2008 was Sarah K: Obama, and so before that was McCain, but like there really wasn't

Sarah K: the same level of crazy, you know, bi-partisan politics Sarah K: that there is now. Yeah, that would be cool to find out. Figure out what what happened. Cause that was definitely not... Sarah K: yeah. Abby Bowling: Hmm.

Sarah K: I mean, it wasn't like- Abby Bowling: That's interesting. Sarah K: -there was less involvement from, Sarah K: like housing and residence life. You know, I

Sarah K: still owe them apologies for you know, some of the stuff I put them through. But they definitely were- I'll tell you what- they definitely were involved! I know they were personally involved in my life a lot, and same thing with the on campus police. There was a big presence there. A lot of the lower-level, I would say, administrative-like functions, like the Sarah K: the Safe Sarah K: Bus, when they were starting to... because I was there when they were putting up more of the blue lights, they were putting more of the like, you could call and get somebody to pick you up or to walk you. That was a big thing, like student safety. A lot of that was happening then. Sarah K: That was the era of like, you know, watch your drink and don't get roofied. And like, if you're going up to Towson, make sure you're with friends, and that they're watching your drinks,

Sarah K: yeah. But if it's a protest policy, I wonder what kicked that off. Sarah K: 2008. Brendan might know. I think Brendan graduated in Sarah K: '07, and he has friends who graduated in '08. So Sarah K: yeah, the ones who are like two years behind me. I bet you they would know too.

Abby Bowling: Yeah, that policy specifically, like as it currently stands, Abby Bowling: it restricts protests like, to specific areas. And there's a lot of like, really vague language in it about like 'disrupting' and like these kinds of things. So it's very like... Sarah K: Are you allowed to chalk the walk still? Can you still chalk? Abby Bowling: Yeah, you can chalk. You can chalk in places where rain can wash it away.

Sarah K: Okay. Abby Bowling: Yeah, so. Sarah K: That's pretty broad. Sarah K: Yeah, we did...there was a lot of chalking. Okay.

Abby Bowling: Yeah. Sarah K: You have to remember, too, like Sarah K: we were still allowed to like smoke on campus. Sarah K: And smoke, like, you know, 'officially', it had to be 10 feet away from the door, but if it was raining,

Sarah K: like you were just standing right outside the front door smoking, and you were smoking with professors. And like, the professors who would smoke, if it was a nice day, you would go have class outside, Sarah K: like just in the green. Sarah K: Because also, Sarah K: this is back in the day. So,

Sarah K: people didn't bring laptops. Nobody had like, a computer in class. Sarah K: And the professors weren't often using a computer either, Sarah K: and so there was no need to be inside, because you didn't need to have like, electricity Sarah K: to-

Abby Bowling: Right. Sarah K: -have class, Sarah K: you know. We also didn't have cars. No, I'm just kidding. Sarah K: Oh, but why is that important? So the idea that, like there is,

Sarah K: uh, Sarah K: space restrictions and things like that, again, that Sarah K: is a newer thing. I think that they started the idea of like a designated smoking place, Sarah K: was right at the very end, like that was starting to happen right after I left.

Sarah K: But this concept of like "you can do things in this place and not in this place", if it was outside of a building, it was kind of like Sarah K: neutral territory. Like it was a free zone. Sarah K: As long as the volume didn't affect what was happening in the buildings. Abby Bowling: Did like, other people take advantage of that like? Was there a lot of like,

Abby Bowling: public gatherings or demonstrations that were like political? Sarah K: Yeah, and I mean, sometimes it was nonpolitical stuff. You know, it was just like recruitment stuff. But I remember, like the Black Student Union, like they were always doing like, you know, meetups or stomps, or just like social activities or things like that. Greek life, you know, when they would do rush, and then they would do like Greek Week and all that kind of stuff, that stuff would spill all over everywhere, you know. Sarah K: If some of the sports teams were really like kicking it up, you know, you would see that. Sarah K: Yeah, when they were pushing for like performances are happening, or this club or that club. It just was, you know, the idea of open communication. When I walked through the new College of Liberal Arts, which is very pretty,

Sarah K: it's so... Sarah K: I don't... I love Dean Chulos. He and I are, you know, so this is not a... and he knows this because I said that the first time he walked me through, I was like, Sarah K: "There are no flyers up." He's like, "Oh, they have dedicated bulletin boards", and like there's a process or something. Whereas Linthicum, it was like Sarah K: you put it wherever you want, and it might get ripped down, but then you just put more up. And like, it was that way in a lot of public areas. Like you put up whatever you want to put up. So, yes. And it wasn't just

Sarah K: political, that was a big one, but a lot of times it was... Sarah K: Because it was that way, there was more unorganized or unattributed, or anonymous flyering Sarah K: of like, political stuff. I went through my Sarah K: Facebook photos, but I'm gonna take a look at...I have- because this was the era before a lot of digital photography- I have actual photographs. I want to see if there's anything that I have from inside of

Sarah K: the buildings that would show that. But like, Sarah K: yeah, I mean, all you had to do is get access to a printer, and you could you could be putting up and saying whatever you want up in the buildings. Abby Bowling: That's really interesting. Abby Bowling: So would you say that campus was-

Sarah K: Oh, go ahead! Abby Bowling: -Sorry. Would you say the campus was Abby Bowling: like, Abby Bowling: a lot of the consensus is that like, students are apathetic, but this makes it seem like they weren't because of these like very loose guidelines, or like loose restrictions on that kind of activity. Would you say that students were like

Abby Bowling: engaged in that way because of that? Sarah K: Yeah, because it wasn't- Abby Bowling: And that attitude? Sarah K: -it wasn't... there wasn't a group or groups that you had to participate in order to express yourself in that way.

Sarah K: Because it was pre-social media, I mean early social media, you know, when we were in the Beta group for Facebook, right, when you still had to be a student. Sarah K: And like Towson, was like one of the first 50 or 100 schools to get on Facebook. But there wasn't an idea of like, Facebook was a way to generate like social currency. You know, it's still... Abby Bowling: Mhmm. Sarah K: Because there wasn't a concept of a wall. It really was like, early on with Facebook. It was, you know, a mixture of Myspace, where you're basically collaging your personality up there, and then AOL Instant Messenger, because those were the two tools that we had

Sarah K: when we all joined, like in the 2001, 2002, 2003 era, and Facebook was kind of combining those two. But there wasn't this idea of like, you're getting to see society and social groups and all of that, or like you are putting yourself out there, because, like, "I am part of this group, and I believe this. And I am an activist" and all of that. Activist wasn't Sarah K: like a label, activist was like a hobby, or like a personality trait. And so because it wasn't as organized, and it wasn't a social identifier, it was just something that people did when they had some thought. Yeah, you had some people who were extra passionate and were organizing, and, thank God, because they got more done. But, Sarah K: was it apathetic? No, it was just like looser. Sarah K: And

Sarah K: it was smaller scale. Like, we would have had no way of knowing if Sarah K: a hundred people are all having the same conversation, because all of those conversations were happening in person. Abby Bowling: Right. Sarah K: You know, like the idea of,

Sarah K: 'I am going to make a flyer on my computer, Sarah K: and other people are going to take a look at it, who are not Sarah K: physically close to me, Sarah K: and there's a place I can put it where other people will know that I did it, or we did it', like that whole concept didn't really exist.

Sarah K: And so you would have like micro-pockets of like Sarah K: two or three people. Sarah K: The one big time I did flyering, which was not for any political reason, it really was like... I made some dumb choices which I have now like... Sarah K: am making amends for all of them, including anytime Towson needs anything, I'm here for it. But,

Sarah K: there were only two or three people who knew that like, "Oh, Sarah created..." Okay, I can give you an example of one that doesn't make me look like a terrible person. Sarah K: It used to be that you had a key to get into your dorm, Sarah K: and that key would open any of the doors. Sarah K: There wasn't a concept of like, there was just a front door.

Abby Bowling: Hmm. Sarah K: And it also meant that you could...did they switch us to badges? I think at some point, yeah. They switched us while I was there from a key to a badge, but then we would also prop open doors, because we'd sit out front and smoke, or sit out front and wait for a friend and prop the door open so they could go in. So Richmond and Newell on York Road started having random people walk in. Sarah K: And the big one that happened in Newell was they were starting to steal our laundry, Sarah K: in particular, women's underwear.

Sarah K: And so, Sarah K: that's part of when they switched to...you're not allowed to open propped doors. You have to go through the front door where somebody can always see you and all of that. And so I created wanted posters for the underwear thief. Sarah K: Right? But like,that again, was like... 316 00:41:50.480 --> 00:42:15.940 Sarah K: Because it happened at my computer, and a chick I knew had a printer, and so we printed it out there, and then made copies, and it just went in small areas, like it didn't become like, a phenomenon. It was super localized, right? And so think about that, but also of all other political things. So you would even have stuff happening on one side of the University that the other side wouldn't know. Sarah K: Like, the Towers wouldn't even necessarily know what was happening at Richmond and Newell,

Sarah K: which might even not know if... is Res Tower still around? Anyway, like other, you know... And then, like what's happening at University Village, like all the apartments, they were their own little world. So like, we weren't even...yeah. Abby Bowling: Sorry, just scribbling down some notes. Sarah K: Yeah, yeah. Abby Bowling: Okay. So the last thing that I want to ask you about specifically,

Abby Bowling: is one of the big sources that I've been looking at is the Towson Action Group's website. And it's archived from like early 2002 to like, 2004, 2005. And most of the hyperlinks still work which is really cool. So on their like, dropdown menu of like, Abby Bowling: links on the website, they have a ton of different issues listed. So there's "living wage, sweatshops, World Bank and IMF, death penalty, anti-racist action, animal rights, police brutality, the environment, and Free Palestine" are all the labels on there. So I was curious if those were... Abby Bowling: Like, you said Nick was the "anti-war guy". Were there students associated with those causes? Like you knew this person really rallied hard for this? Or did students kind of work in like small groups? Or were those actions even known? Like you said, if, you know, people across campus didn't even know like... Abby Bowling: I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

Sarah K: Run through the list again. Abby Bowling: Yeah. So living wage and sweatshops, and a lot of that's the Aramark stuff. Sarah K: Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah. Abby Bowling: World Bank and IMF.

Abby Bowling: Which is a Abby Bowling: huge topic to begin to cover. The death penalty, which TAG did Abby Bowling: an event called "Live from Death Row", where they interviewed a person who was incarcerated, and he had been on death row for 17 years, so that was something that TAG specifically was active about. Anti-racist action, animal rights, police brutality, environment and Free Palestine. So all these kind of like broad topics that on the website are just information, like informational material. But I'm not sure if that manifested on campus at all, or if that was just an online thing. Sarah K: I know that there was a lot more. There was a pretty heavy push

Sarah K: for the university to become more environmentally conscious, Sarah K: and maybe they were part of the behind the scenes of Sarah K: that. Sarah K: You know the idea of like,

Sarah K: recycling at the dorm level, you know. There was like trash at the dorm level, but there it was, the early days of like... you can recycle! Sarah K: And also like, recycle without consequences. So in a world in which you have underage students drinking on campus, Sarah K: you know, like, then you get faced with this whole like, "do I recycle?" Or, you know, "can I anonymously?". But because there were so few places to recycle, Sarah K: it really was like, you know. You'd have like, an entire floor of a dorm

Sarah K: with one recycling bin, but it wasn't like a culture there. And I'll give the administration some credit. Maybe it was a top down initiative, which is, you know, a good thing to do. Sarah K: Yeah, I know that there was more of a push to like, there's all of this paper created, because this was pre- a lot of digital content, digital curriculum, you know. Keep in mind we were carrying all of our books around, printing everything out, there was no digital submission. It was paper and paper and paper. I know that there was some like student Sarah K: push to talk about like, is there a way to reduce that? Sarah K: The World Bank and IMF stuff is interesting. That rings a bell. But I'll have to think through that...

Sarah K: if I can think of any specific movement. Sarah K: And then, yeah, the people I'll put you in touch with, Sarah K: they would know. Do you have anybody on your list who worked at the at the radio station? TMD, when it still was actually like, Towson-based content? Abby Bowling: No.

Sarah K: Alright. Sarah K: I'll find I'll find you somebody from TMD, too. Sarah K: Cause they would kind of have a pulse about what was going on. Sarah K: Hmm.

Sarah K: Yeah, I'll keep thinking too, about who Sarah K: else would Sarah K: have good Sarah K: insight.

Sarah K: Yeah, maybe from the Poli Sci world. Sarah K: Yeah, Sarah K: yeah. Abby Bowling: Yeah, I know, I'm sorry. I know that's a big question, it's just interesting that that's such an extensive list. And I was just curious about, you know,

Abby Bowling: how practical Abby Bowling: tackling all those things actually was, and in what ways did they show up? Abby Bowling: But yeah, that is everything that I have on my Abby Bowling: list of notes to talk about. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to discuss?

Sarah K: Hmm! Sarah K: Well, I'll ask you this. I know that in terms of the Israel-Palestine conflict, there has been some concern about Sarah K: people wanting speakers on campus, and is it the right time? Is it appropriate and all that? But that's very much based on current events. Sarah K: Do you feel like there are

Sarah K: speakers Sarah K: or lectures on campus, that are spicy topics Sarah K: that are like, it's okay. It's considered kind of like, okay, that Sarah K: this somewhat "hot rod"

Sarah K: or "lightning rod" of a lecture is happening? Abby Bowling: I mean, from a current student perspective, the campus is very politicized right now, like very, Abby Bowling: very tense, I would say. And I've had professors on both sides of the spectrum say things in class that Abby Bowling: a lot of other professors wouldn't say. Not necessarily anything, you know,

Abby Bowling: hateful or bombastic, but people are discussing it in a way that's a lot more Abby Bowling: open. It's...I don't know. Abby Bowling: It's also interesting to me that you are talking about like... Your campus experience was, people were pretty, I don't want to say like, atomized, but like not everybody knew everything. And that's just how like social media has shaped the campus now. Like, everybody knows everything that's going on. So that's also different. Abby Bowling: There's a lot more action and then counter action like. It's not just the I say this and then you say this and we're kind of in our different bubbles. There's a lot of interaction between opposing viewpoints on that issue right now.

Sarah K: Yeah. And because there wasn't, the idea of like, I can loudly put this opinion out there Sarah K: to the world and a lot of people hear it, but it's almost like disconnected from me as a human, Sarah K: that has very much changed things, too. And like I said, when I think back to the heat of the anti-war stuff, Sarah K: there wasn't talking about that outside of you interacting with other humans. And so,

Sarah K: you know, the advantage is our voice is more powerful now, and we're able to find allies and a sense of community, particularly if we are isolated from a political identity that we believe in. But, like, for instance, I lived in Florida for 11 years like, Sarah K: talk about feeling isolated in a political environment. But I loved my neighbors, and so like on a day-to-day basis, it was like, "Do I put the sign in my yard, or am I still good friends with Joe and Mimi?" Right, you know, like that kind of stuff. But then there was this thought of like. Sarah K: We have people who like, on the one hand, George Bush is their boss and pays for their life, and they feel very honorable defending our country. And we have other people that are like "this is a lie. Why are we in Iraq? Sarah K: People are dead, you are dumb."

Sarah K: But like, Sarah K: we had to...there was no idea that, like we wouldn't try to get along. Sarah K: And so like, we were still in an environment where it was like as opposite as those views are, we will Sarah K: find a way to coexist and

Sarah K: and not be so wrapped up in our opinion about that, that that determines like who we socially interact with, who we break bread with, who we party with, who we hang out with, you know. Like it wasn't divisive the same way. Sarah K: That's kind of the concern that I see. I'm like putting on my like old person- mom hat. It's like, is there a continued idea that I can deeply, deeply disagree with you and love you as a human. Sarah K: Not for your opinion about something that's happening a thousand miles away, but like you as a person like, would I save your life? Sarah K: Right?

Sarah K: Did I freeze up? Sarah K: Did I lose you? Todd-Diaz, Ashley: I can still hear. Oh, here comes Abby. Sarah K: Oh, okay, I was like, I didn't say anything that profound, and she was like stunned!

Abby Bowling: No sorry you froze for me, and I couldn't tell if I was... Sarah K: Like, she got real dramatic! Abby Bowling: if you lost me. Haha! Sarah K: Yeah. Anyway, I mean, things change, and you know, we gain some stuff and we lose some stuff from it. Alright, so how can I help you? Is it just putting you in touch with people? Is that the best way to do it?

Abby Bowling: Yeah! Abby Bowling: Anybody that you think would have further info on the points we talked about. You had mentioned you might have some photos. So if there's anything like that that you have saved, that you're comfortable sharing, absolutely, that would be helpful. Sarah K: Yeah. Sarah K: Yeah, I think-

Abby Bowling: Right now. The only contact- Sarah K: -I'm gonna- Abby Bowling: -that I have- Sarah K: -okay, go ahead. Yeah.

Abby Bowling: Oh, sorry. Sarah K: No. Tell me. Abby Bowling: The only contact I have is Brendan Curran, and I can get in contact with Jo-Ann Pilardi. Abby Bowling: That won't be hard. But all these other people I haven't been able to find.

Sarah K: Yeah, so Sarah K: get in contact with Sarah K: Dr. Scales, Steve Scales, who was... Sarah K: I thought that

Sarah K: the Dean said he was still around, maybe even just at an adjunct level. Sarah K: Ask him because he will, he will be able to answer the question like, how involved were other faculty members in supporting, officially or unofficially some of these other student movements. And I know that in philosophy, he taught the environmental philosophy class. Sarah K: Oh, no, you froze again, little lamb. Sarah K: Ashley, we gotta send in special teams for Abby. Oh, okay, good.

Abby Bowling: Yeah. Sarah K: Oh, save her! Sarah K: Okay, so yeah. So talk to Steve Scales about who else was involved in that. And I would also talk to Matt Durrington because he was newer to campus, but his, I mean his studies in Texas were about moral panic, and so he was always very fascinated in community reaction to specific events. So he may, Sarah K: you know, have an idea of what was starting to kick up. He also may, from a faculty perspective, be able to answer like what happened from 2006 to 2008 that had them like, step it up from the protest side of things.

Sarah K: Alright. So, I'm going to text Brendan when we get off this phone and tell him "Here are your orders. Here's what you're doing." And I'll get him in advance to look through photos and stuff like that, and think through who else he can put in. I think he has been in contact with Nick more recently than I have. Sarah K: So I'll have him start pulling Nick's contact info together. He'll be able to... and then I'll tell him the list. Because he's like super social butterfly. So he probably has a lot more Sarah K: names of people, like talk to this person about this, and this person about this. Sarah K: and then I'll get in contact with my people who I know are involved, too. I'm gonna try to track down this other guy Zay who was only on campus for like a year or two, but

Sarah K: he was also really, really involved, and he was involved in a lot of protests downtown in Baltimore. Sarah K: So I'll see. Sarah K: I'll see who he can get in contact with, because he would be able to talk about like the connection between on-campus activity, and then, like more national movements. Abby Bowling: Okay, we're good.

Abby Bowling: Uh, I can't. This is- this is crazy. Abby Bowling: Do you have last names for Nick and Zay? Sarah K: Yeah, Nick is Sokolow. So that is... Sarah K: I think I have him on LinkedIn,

Sarah K: that's how you know you're old. Sarah K: We're connected on LinkedIn. Sarah K: He goes by Nicholas now. S-O-K-O-L-O-W. Sarah K: And oh, that's pretty funny. He's the Principal Counsel at the Maryland Office of the Attorney General.

Sarah K: That's really Sarah K: hilarious. Sarah K: So he's at the AG's office. Sarah K: Oh, man.

Sarah K: I love that. He was a chief lawyer at the Department of Labor. Sarah K: Yup. Sarah K: Yup. Sarah K: Oh, man, that's so good.

Sarah K: Let's see. Do I have contact with him here? Contact information? Sarah K: Yeah, alright, he is- you ready? I can give you Sarah K: his email Sarah K: right now. Nick, N-I-C-K,

Sarah K: dot Sarah K: Sokolow, S-O-K-O-L-O-W, Sarah K: @gmail.com. Sarah K: And...

Sarah K: Brendan will have a phone number for him. Sarah K: And then... Sarah K: Justin. Sarah K: So Justin Schwemmer, S-C-H-W-E-M-M-E-R.

Sarah K: He is... Sarah K: Yeah, he's the other lawyer. Civil litigation, criminal defense. He was aT Towson... Sarah K: '05 to '08. So he was around in that mysterious gap period, too. Sarah K: And...

Sarah K: Let's see his email: Sarah K: jschwemmer Sarah K: at Sarah K: law,

Sarah K: L-A-W, Sarah K: C-J-B. Sarah K: Dot com. Abby Bowling: Got it.

Sarah K: He... Sarah K: I think that Brendan will probably also have a current phone number for hi, actually. Abby Bowling: Okay. Abby Bowling: Alright.

Sarah K: Good job reaching out. Abby Bowling: Thank you. Sarah K: Having a degree where I got my degree by crawling into a cave and just like, thinking self-centered thoughts, I really appreciate what you were doing at your age. That's super cool. Abby Bowling: Well, thank you.

Sarah K: If you need anything else, or you have any other questions or anything like that, or if you're not able to get in contact with people, then just let me know. Reach out. Abby Bowling: Okay, yeah, will do. And same here, if you have any questions or anything for me. Sarah K: Yeah. If I wake up in the middle of the night and be like, "Oh, this thing! This person!", then Sarah K: yeah, I'll let you know.

Abby Bowling: Alright! Sarah K: Alright! Sarah K: Good luck with your project, and maybe we'll talk soon. Abby Bowling: Yup, alright. Thank you so much!

Sarah K: Alright, thanks! Thank you, Ashley. Todd-Diaz, Ashley: Thank you.