Interview with Robert Blake

Speaker 1: Robert Blake graduated from the State University at Albany in 1983 with a bachelor's degree in biology. He received his master’s in the art of teaching and biology from Brown University. Speaker 1: Doctor Blake taught in public education for several years. He came to Towson University as a member of the Department of Elementary Education in 1997. These are his reflections. Karen Blair: Doctor Blake, thank you for sharing with us your thoughts about your own teacher preparation and your subsequent career in education. Karen Blair: This will help create richer understanding of teacher education at Towson, what we do here.

Karen Blair: I think we probably should start at the beginning, so if you would, would you share with us a little bit about your early social context, where you grew up, Karen Blair: where you went to high school, what kinds of career thoughts you were having as you went through school? Robert Blake: Excellent. Yeah, that would actually be really good. It's kind of funny - social context. I was actually, let's see, I guess I would call myself a child of the 70s. I was born in 61, so I was too young to be a child of the 60s. I'm the only native New Yorker in my family, which is really interesting. They're all native New Englanders. Robert Blake: So I am a true Buffalo Bills fan because I grew up in Western New York, but they're all, like, Red Sox and, you know, Patriots and Celtics and all that.

Robert Blake: And I actually envisioned myself someday living in New England. I've actually done a lot of work there, taught skiing in Vermont, taught sailing out by Boston, went to school. Robert Blake: I actually taught in Western Massachusetts for a few years, so I actually thought I was going to be heading in that direction. But that's just not how it happened. Robert Blake: It's interesting. I was thinking about that question. Robert Blake: Either, when I was either driving to work or not driving to work, kind of how the mind works.

Robert Blake: Because I knew you'd be - and I was looking at this. You know, why did I get where I am. Robert Blake: I don't know if it's interesting about that time of one's life, that time of our society. But I spent a lot of time outside. Robert Blake: You know, the old idea is that mom would kick us out, lock the door and say don't come back. Robert Blake: Or, you know, get us dressed to go out in the wintertime and then we'd come back in 5 minutes later saying we have to go to the bathroom.

Robert Blake: She’s like, what do you mean? I just got you dressed. Robert Blake: But I spent a lot of time outside through, let's see. Robert Blake: Never, to be honest with you, never really thought of what I was going to do in a future through high school. Robert Blake: And what's really interesting is I was a biology major in college and I had the world's worst biology teacher. He taught by fear.

Robert Blake: And his way of, you know, guaranteeing student success was through the fear mode. And then my perception was if you, Robert Blake: if he perceived that you were going to fail, he'd make sure you get out. Robert Blake: So he'd have a higher passing rate. That's just my perception at the time. Karen Blair: But you knew you were going to go to college.

Robert Blake: Oh, yeah, you had to, you know, my family, college was guaranteed. Robert Blake: Guaranteed in terms of, that's the next step. My dad went to college, had a doctorate at the time when I- he got his doctorate in 1964. So I was born in 61. Robert Blake: He put himself through college at Boston University and also went to AIC, American International College, or as they like to joke, almost in college. Robert Blake: And then my mom had an undergraduate degree, I believe, and I know she went back to get her masters, and this is actually the influence for me, the masters and teaching for teaching science.

Robert Blake: So yeah, there was no question of whether we were or were not going to go to college. Karen Blair: But there was no- You had no sense of pressure from school or home or anything about what you would major in or what you would become professionally. Robert Blake: No, it's interesting because my dad was a professor, former high school assistant principal, and certainly I never envisioned being a teacher. Robert Blake: And my mom taught for a very short period of time.

Robert Blake: But still never envisioned being a teacher. You know, a public school teacher or anything like that. It just wasn't… And for me personally, and again, I… Robert Blake: You know, you can go back to the child of the 70s. You know, I joke about it with friends of mine back from high school. Robert Blake: Sometimes I consider ourselves a lost generation. It took us a while to figure out where we were going in life. Some of us. Robert Blake: But you know, we've all turned out pretty well.

Karen Blair: Well, there you go. So returning to college. Karen Blair: So you had this fear inducing professor in biology. Karen Blair: What else about that? I mean, did you have teachers that you admired? Robert Blake: It's interesting. High school…

Robert Blake: I remember my first day of high school was a complete whirlwind coming out of middle school. Robert Blake: Middle school, I was a National Junior Honor Society inductee and you know, I was the supposedly the goody-two-shoes, you know, and I guess I would follow, you know, the rules kind of like my daughter is now. I got into high school and I guess things changed a little, basically mid 70s. Robert Blake: I, you know, I remember teachers, none of them in high school having that major impact on me. I do remember one instance in physics. Robert Blake: Where I went to the teacher and I said, I don't understand. You know, the classic, I don't understand.

Robert Blake: And he looked at me and says, I don't think you've tried. Robert Blake: And he was right. Robert Blake: So I went back and tried, and lo and behold I understood. Robert Blake: At least with that particular instance of physics of course. Physics and chemistry were not my strength. And again, it's fascinating that I'm actually a teacher of science because I had the biology teacher of death. I had a chemistry that was just really tough for me. And then physics. I found physics more interesting than any of them. But also I think that was senior year for me.

Karen Blair: Uh-huh. Robert Blake: Never an AP student in any of my coursework. Robert Blake: Shouldn't admit that in public, but you know it's just, I tell my students all the time. You know, the ones that are A and like, wow, how did you do that? Karen Blair: Well, people get to where they are at different ways.

Robert Blake: Different ways. Yeah. And I tell it to students who are becoming teachers. Robert Blake: You know, we're not all expected to be at the same place at the same time, but ultimately I think, you know, if you, you know, persevere and put that time in, you'll get there. Robert Blake: But high school, you know, Mrs. Lynn and French, but you know, I failed French One. And this was really interesting because I had a sister who majored in French and she's fluent in French. So in order to go to French Two, I had to take French One again. Robert Blake: A conditional pass. That's interesting. So, and then mathematics.

Robert Blake: You know, Mr. Nesbitt. But I never learned math. He was just a nice guy. Robert Blake: And… You know, I've names. Karen Blair: It's interesting that you remember names. Robert Blake: Yeah. Chuck Berry. His name was actually Alan Berry. We called him Chuck. And the reason I remember him is he was the advisor for the ski club and I was president of Ski Club for two years.

Robert Blake: But other than that, not a lot. Robert Blake: Played baseball. Did sports. Robert Blake: But you know, it's just a typical, non distinct high school career. Karen Blair: So you go to college.

Karen Blair: Yeah, SUNY Albany. Robert Blake: I did, yeah. I spent one year at home. I grew up in a college town, State University college at Brockport, NY, and my parents always wanted as New York. If you don't know New York State, it has a tiered educational system, community colleges. Then it has two year technical schools. Robert Blake: Probably like a lot of places, but it seemed a lot more organized than maybe others. Robert Blake: And then it had the four year liberal arts colleges, and then the four year universities. And at the time, there are only four universities. And as far as I'm concerned, as far as I know, not concerned, I think there still are only four public universities there.

Robert Blake: Buffalo, Stony Brook, Albany, and Binghamton. And then the rest of them like Brockport was a State University College at Brockport, so SUNY. Robert Blake: And so I went there for my first year, but then transferred to SUNY Albany. Robert Blake: And my dad likes to say that one of his successes for his children in life is that we all went to a university in New York. Robert Blake: My brother went to Buffalo and my sister went to Stony Brook and I went to Albany.

Robert Blake: So that's what he wanted. Robert Blake: But SUNY Albany was, it was a good experience. Karen Blair: Big school. Robert Blake: I guess, you know, things I didn't pay attention to. Yeah, it seemed big, and it's probably gotten a lot bigger.

Karen Blair: And what made you decide on biology? Robert Blake: My mom. Robert Blake: My mom's influence and the fact that I spent most of my time outside. Robert Blake: Just out, I mean, where I grew up, we were the last town, it's… While it was a college town

Robert Blake: it was still very much on the edge of rural, and we were the last town in the western part of the county, Monroe County, where Rochester, New York, is we were the last town on the western edge. And so between there and Buffalo is pretty much fields. Robert Blake: And so I spent a lot of time outside, had a golden retriever, couple of golden retrievers, and a lot of time walking around, you know, a little kid with a BB gun doing that, just foraging around through the woods and the fields and doing stuff. Robert Blake: As I said, you know, we didn't have cable TV. You had three stations that could barely come in. No, and I don't do it now, I'm not on Facebook, I'm not on Twitter. So none of that to bide our time. Some toys to play with down in the basement. But other than that, it was… Robert Blake: What are you going to do? I don't know. Go outside.

Robert Blake: So that's what we did. And I just pretty much fell in love with nature. Robert Blake: My parents, we were 10 miles from Lake Ontario. Robert Blake: And my parents joined a small little Yacht Club, Rockport Yacht Club, and they did sailboat racing, small boat sailboat racing and I fished. Robert Blake: In a rowboat that had a motor until I burned it out, and anything that I could do around the water, near the water, catch frogs go fishing, swim,

Robert Blake: I did. Robert Blake: And that's pretty much where I was, and played baseball. Robert Blake: I played baseball most of my life when I was a kid. Karen Blair: And do you remember- What do you remember about being taught in college? Were there any other than the professor who was kind of scary?

Robert Blake: Yeah, that was actually high school, that. Robert Blake: In college, it was interesting. The couple of interesting things about college, it took me to my junior year to actually write a paper. Robert Blake: And when I went to get my master’s degree at Brown University, I found out that students wrote papers in every single class from freshman year on. So basically, I was a crappy writer. Robert Blake: And you can keep that in the in the tape that word because I was pretty bad, which was really tough because my dad was really good.

Robert Blake: I remember invertebrate zoology distinctly. Robert Blake: Steven Brown. Robert Blake: And the lab. Robert Blake: And we always had live animals, almost always.

Robert Blake: And just, the excitement and the time and effort that he put in to structure in our lab experience for us. Robert Blake: Really, it just energized me to really wanting to be, not necessarily studying animals, but enjoying the aspect of looking at animals Robert Blake: and getting to know what they're about and how they live and how they interact. Robert Blake: And then another, I remember one time in aquatic ecology. I was like close to failing my first exam and I said- You know, I'm always a slow starter. I have been my entire life. And I told myself, I said, you know, this can't happen.

Robert Blake: And then the next exam I got the second highest grade in the class. But you know, those two classes, aquatic ecology got us out up in Lake George, and we're doing water sampling and water testing. Robert Blake: And invertebrate zoology was just, you know, have a tarantula crawling up your hand and looking at the stinging cells that come out of jellyfish under a microscope and watching them explode. That was really cool. Robert Blake: And you can do this now. A friend of mine does this with Maryland Sea Grant. But he opens up oysters or clams. And if they're really healthy, you can put carmine red, little red particles on it. And you can see the filter feeding process. These little things that are floating along their gills. And so all of that stuff was just fascinating to me. Robert Blake: And so that was probably the most influential course that I had, and that kind of- I was a biology major at the time.

Robert Blake: So that solidified my interest in biology, but the next question is what was I going to do with it? Karen Blair: So long about maybe Junior, certainly senior year. Karen Blair: We're sort of thinking… Robert Blake: No, still, 1983, I wanted to be a ski teacher.

Karen Blair: OK. Robert Blake: It was interesting, SUNY Albany had a pre-med track and then the rest of us. Robert Blake: And I was not interested in pre-med, but at the same time I knew people who were basically going for their biology major to be a lab tech. Robert Blake: And considering how much I like being outside, there was nothing about sitting in the lab all day that interests me.

Robert Blake: And so basically I wanted to save baby ducks and whales. Karen Blair: OK. Robert Blake: But I found out that most of that work, at least I thought at that time, when you graduate from college, is volunteer work, and I was trying to figure out, well, geez, you know. Robert Blake: So I ended up coming out of college with… And again, I don't know. You know, we can go with a long story and you know, go to the family of origin and all that. But there wasn't any pressure to have college to get that immediate job out of college.

Robert Blake: When I talk with my students in our foundations class, we have the notions of, you know, education, Robert Blake: the purpose of education is for social efficiency or humanist, and the idea of social efficiency is that the purpose of your education is to strictly get a job. And I certainly had a friend of mine who, you know, told me - he's my age - I had to get a job coming out of college. Robert Blake: I think my parents’ point of view was more of the humanist point of view. Robert Blake: More of, let's spend our time in college to really become that well-rounded person, to become whatever educated would be, and then let's see what happens as opposed to specifically getting a job. I know the one thing I wanted to do coming out of college is I wanted to teach skiing.

Karen Blair: OK. Robert Blake: In Vermont, specifically. Karen Blair: And did you do that? Robert Blake: I did. I did. I was actually told by a guy that I kind of idolized and respected

Robert Blake: who never went to college- He was a ski teacher at a small ski area in Western New York. Robert Blake: He pulled me aside and said just finish college. Robert Blake: And so I did. And then in the fall, and I finished College in 83, in the fall of 83, I went up to Killington, Vermont for their ski school instructor course. Robert Blake: And they give the top two in the class, male and female, automatic jobs. I wasn't top two. But I told them I was coming back for a job anyways.

Robert Blake: And so I just showed up on their doorstep and they gave me a job. Robert Blake: And so I taught there for three winters full time and then half of winter the next year. Robert Blake: I only did three winters because after three years I was like hmm. Robert Blake: It's a lot of fun. It's certainly an exciting life and I love the aspect of teaching, but not many people make their career at it. So I was thinking, what's my next step?

Karen Blair: Right. Well, what do you do in the summer if you're- Robert Blake: Teach sailing. Robert Blake: Yeah, it was, it was the time of my life, actually, we could liken it to, you know, in higher Ed, I made very little money. Robert Blake: But I had a high quality of life.

Robert Blake: You know, I had a very high quality of life. I spent my winters in the mountains in Vermont and my summers on the water in New England. Karen Blair: Uh-huh. Very nice. Robert Blake: So, but you know, broke as anything. Robert Blake: Just the way it was.

Karen Blair: So at some point you're thinking, hmm, this is a wonderful life, however… Karen Blair: “However” comes into that at some point. Robert Blake: Yeah, it was interesting. You know, I came back from Vermont and got into environmental testing. Robert Blake: Which fit right along with my nature of being interested in the environment and the outdoors.

Robert Blake: What didn't fit is going down sanitary sewer holes and trudging around in poop and pee and putting testing equipment out there. I worked out in Rochester, New York in the Xerox complex out there. Robert Blake: And Xerox, like Eastman Kodak at the time, but Xerox especially, and it happened up - and I'm pointing because I'm thinking that's the direction - Robert Blake: Jacksonville, where the Exxon Mobil, Exxon, contaminated the groundwater. Well, the company is up there pretty much contaminated the groundwater around the areas. And so I was involved with a company that would test the groundwater Robert Blake: through wells that they had put in there and we would take the water out and we would test discharges and the sanitary sewers and the storm sewers and all of that. And what was interesting about that job is while I was outside for most of the time and doing it, I was not around a lot of people.

Robert Blake: You know, I kind of realized that it certainly wasn't… Robert Blake: I liked people. I liked being around people and so my… It's interesting, my dad, being a professor, came across this announcement in his college for the Master of Arts and Teaching Program at Brown University. Robert Blake: And I was actually in the inaugural class for biology. They had the social studies and they had the English. So there were only four of us that got into biology. And just like anything in my life, I was not a shoe in to get in. Robert Blake: It took some cajoling, some persuading, basically telling Brown that, oh, he'll come with no financial aid. Come on, just let him in.

Karen Blair: Whoa. OK. Robert Blake: And I got in. Robert Blake: So, and that it was interesting because really it was the ski teaching that pushed me into teaching Robert Blake: I had mentioned a long time ago in this conversation that I never, never envisioned being a teacher, and it was just not in any horizon that I had in my life.

Robert Blake: But I had the background, the influence, and when I taught skiing and taught sailing, I found out that I actually liked the process, liked the craft. Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: The problem with Ski teaching and sailing teaching as they come to you because they want to, as opposed to public school teaching. Robert Blake: They have to be there.

Robert Blake: So that was some of the conflict, but Brown University was a secondary, so they had a high school, it was for a high school program. Karen Blair: Tell me a little bit about that experience, that preparation. Robert Blake: It was rough, it was rough. Robert Blake: Yeah. You know.

Karen Blair: Did you take courses, and were they methods or curriculum or… Robert Blake: Brown had a program where the first thing you do is you come in the summer, it’s a one year program, and you teach, they had what they called Brown Summer High School. Karen Blair: You teach? Robert Blake: Brown had actually a couple of things. They had programs for the really smart kids, the accelerated kids, and then the Education department had Brown Summer High School that they would offer to the area urban students. And that's not to say they weren't smart. That's just to say by test grades or anything they weren't in those accelerated programs.

Robert Blake: And so our job, I think It was for four weeks, was to teach, so right away we were teaching. Karen Blair: Teaching what? Robert Blake: I was teaching high school biology with my counterparts and then my other groups. I think there were probably 15 in social studies, 12 to 15, and 12 to 15 in English, might have been fewer. But I know, biology, there was only four of us, and so we'd get a group of kids that would come in and we would teach. Robert Blake: And then we would also take classes. I remember we took ed psychology. I'm trying to think of what else we took.

Karen Blair: Did you take anything related to teaching other than ed psych? Robert Blake: Possibly a methods class in the summer. Possibly. You know that that's kind of fading from my memory. I know ed psychology because my teacher is now the Dean of the College of Education at University of Vermont. Fayneese Miller. Robert Blake: And I took it pass fail because I didn't have the confidence in my ability to do really well, and I think in hindsight that was a mistake because I think I did really well in Ed Psych. Robert Blake: And then what you would do is between fall and spring, you either student teach or take courses. Brown system was you would take four courses in your content area.

Robert Blake: And then - in one semester - and then another semester you would student teach. Robert Blake: So I happened to be in the semester of four courses in the fall. Robert Blake: And then I student taught in the spring. Karen Blair: So those four courses were in biology, so you're getting even more biology.

Robert Blake: They were. They were. Robert Blake: Right, right. Which was difficult for me. Karen Blair: Well, you've been away from it for a while. Robert Blake: Yeah, and it was Brown. And I'm taking courses with undergraduate students and they're, for lack of a better phrase, really smart and motivated.

Robert Blake: I mean, these are people that could, you know, do, you know, fundamental mathematics in their heads. And I that's something I didn't do. So we have to do calculations. They're whipping calculations off in their head, you know, high achievers working hard. And I struggled, there's no doubt. Robert Blake: Especially with the workload of that and trying to get ready for teaching. Yeah, I struggled. Robert Blake: No doubt about it. Karen Blair: So I'm not hearing any methods courses of any kind.

Robert Blake: Yeah, we had methods courses and I'm trying to remember when they showed up. I know we had methods courses because I know my clinical professor was one of my bigger influences. Robert Blake: Kind of a petite older lady with a very soft voice. Very possibly, I never found out, someone might have found out that she might have had throat cancer or something, but a very soft voice. Robert Blake: Came out of… And she might have come out of Cambridge Rindge and Latin. Robert Blake: And she… We definitely had a methods course.

Robert Blake: Yeah, definitely. Methods of teaching biology because it was an MAT and biology. Robert Blake: And so, one of the things she did for us, and I tried to do this for my students now, is she gave us 3 by 5 card asking 2 questions. Why am I teaching this? Why am I teaching it this way? Robert Blake: And if you can fundamentally answer those two questions, then you're in good shape. If you can't, then you need to do something different. Robert Blake: But yes, we had methods course. And again I'm trying to remember exactly.

Robert Blake: You know, it was 1987, 88. Karen Blair: So you think you maybe had a methods course when you were teaching summer school biology and you may have had a course before you actually went into a student teaching experience. Karen Blair: Were you in schools at all before you did student teaching? No. Robert Blake: No. Trying to think now, I don't… No.

Karen Blair: So, and the summer program, the kids came to Brown. Robert Blake: They came to Brown. Right. Karen Blair: So you haven't really been in schools yet? Robert Blake: Correct. And what was interesting is, is those of us that were doing the spring student teaching, some of us at the…

Robert Blake: This is kind of a sidebar. Kind of felt that we were second fiddle to those who were student teaching in the fall because Brown put so much emphasis on teacher education teacher preparation. Robert Blake: You probably know this, but that was the foundation of Ted Sizer's Coalition of Essential Schools, and Ted was the chairman of the Education Department. Robert Blake: And so they had essential schools in the area. Not all of us could get into them. I didn't get into one. Robert Blake: But there was a, and this was 87, 88, and his book Horace’s Compromise came out in 84, so he was well on his way of pushing the coalition of essential schools.

Robert Blake: Grant Wiggins was there, the assessment guru that everybody knows. Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: So there's a lot of emphasis on the teacher prep. Robert Blake: So some of us who were taking our courses felt that we were kind of on the outside.

Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: But it all came around. Karen Blair: So spring semester comes and you and you get a school assignment, and where was that? Robert Blake: Central High School in downtown Providence, Rhode Island. Urban High School. Chose it.

Robert Blake: There probably, and I'm trying to recall, there probably weren't a lot of choices, but I specifically chose that because it was so against, not against, what would be a good word… Robert Blake: It was an experience that I had never had, so I wanted to go somewhere that was totally different than what I had, and I did. Robert Blake: I actually pulled up information about Central today and I'm not sure what it was in 87. The high school itself had an essential school component and I was not in that. Robert Blake: But statistically, demographics and socioeconomic status for that school were probably very similar to what it is today.

Robert Blake: Certainly, low socioeconomic status, high free and reduced lunch. Currently the school is… Karen Blair: Graduation rates. Robert Blake: Let's see. I don't even know. Robert Blake: Let's see graduation.

Karen Blair: Maybe they don't. Even so. Robert Blake: It's district 63%, 2008, 2009, 60%. Robert Blake: They’re predominantly Latino at the time, I didn't notice that as much. Robert Blake: They're free and reduced lunch, their last free and reduced lunch, 2010, 2011, was 79%.

Robert Blake: It was… Karen Blair: African American students as well. Robert Blake: Yes. And I thought there were at the time when I taught there, there were more African American students, but it's predominantly Latino, Hispanic. They list it as Hispanic 64, 63, 64, 67%, which I didn't, I probably didn't realize this, but. Robert Blake: Providence I think tends to be more Hispanic than I originally thought.

Robert Blake: I remember a student standing up, an African American boy standing up in my biology class and telling me I was racist and stormed out of the class. Robert Blake: I never experienced that before. I didn't know what was going on. Karen Blair: I guess not. Karen Blair: So this was… You’re a biology teacher, were you eased into instruction? Did you have cooperating teachers? Who?

Robert Blake: Yes, cooperating teacher. Karen Blair: Do you remember that person at all? Robert Blake: Yeah. And it's funny you mention that I can remember the face. I can remember her personality Robert Blake: and at the top of my head I can't remember her name.

Robert Blake: Eased into it. Certainly had to do our full time teaching. Robert Blake: It's interesting. I look back at my experience And I'm not sure it was as regimented as, say, our students get now. Robert Blake: But I know I taught two classes, Robert Blake: and tried to teach biology with the emphasis of, you know, this coalition of central schools, student as worker, teacher as coach, less is more that type of thing, with the notion of conceptual understanding as opposed to, you know, focusing on the content. Because I taught New York State Regents biology in New York.

Robert Blake: And I took New York State Regents biology in New York. And it's interesting. I actually thought one could teach the New York State Regents exam by definitions, facts, terms, Robert Blake: without really getting into the content, you know the conceptual understanding, and we were pushed to try to do that at Brown, and it was very difficult for a variety of reasons. One, it's certainly a conceptual change for us. Robert Blake: When you try to get students more involved, the experience that some of us had was, Robert Blake: students that are usually told to sit still be quiet and be told what to do, when they're given freedom, they look at it as free time,

Robert Blake: and so there was this whole notion of we had to... I know that progressive educators are the constructivists. Educators don't like this phrase, but there's some sort of, there's some training going on that we have to do. Robert Blake: And of course, I come in in January, February. And then one of the arguments, and I remember us having a conversation when, and I don't know if Ted Sizer was there or not, but our clinical professors and people were standing up. When do we lecture? Is lecture OK? Robert Blake: Because the way you're teaching us, at least, our perception is that we're never supposed to tell kids the answer. Karen Blair: And what did they say to that?

Robert Blake: Well, they said no, that's not true. You know, there are times for the telling and the lecturing, but I don't think it ever, at least from my perspective, never became clear until later in my life where that fell into place and how much we wanted to do. Robert Blake: And I don't know if that had anything to do with the educational movement within the late 80s and early 90s. Karen Blair: I don't know either. Robert Blake: You know the whole standards movement and, you know, when math came when the math standards came out and they were talking about, you know, trying to get more conceptual understanding and letting kids use calculators and not focusing on rote memorization of math.

Robert Blake: I don't know. Maybe that's where it came from but it was tough. Robert Blake: We tried. We tried. I mean, we had limited resources. Karen Blair: I'm sure. Robert Blake: At Brown, I remember, or at Central High School I remember once the one classroom I was in was a theater type classroom.

Robert Blake: With desks bolted to the floor. Robert Blake: And as you sometimes have in schools these days, is you have a separate laboratory room. Robert Blake: And you have to sign it out, which necessitates that you be planned well ahead. And of course, as a student teacher, that was kind of difficult. Robert Blake: No technology really to speak of.

Robert Blake: And what's funny is in 88, I go to interviews 88, 89, 90, and one of the questions I would always get asked is how would you integrate technology into the classroom? And my answer finally became. Robert Blake: Kind of a cynic and a rebel, I would say, when you get technology in teachers hands and provide us opportunities to learn how to use this, then we can try to get it into the kids’ hands. Robert Blake: But before we do that the question really is kind of a moot point. Robert Blake: But the experience of Brown, I mean, it definitely was eye opening.

Robert Blake: I mean, it set me up for obviously the rest of my career, for a good portion of the rest of my career. Robert Blake: Then I got a job in 1988 in Western Massachusetts and Taconic High School, there were two high schools in the city, and again had difficulty. Robert Blake: You know, I thought I was going to be a good teacher. You know, in retrospect, my clinical professor always told me I was harder on myself than my students. Robert Blake: So that might come across right now in the sense that, you know, probably not as good as I would have thought I would have been.

Karen Blair: I mean, you just come out of a student teaching experience. This is- You're not going to be at your best. Robert Blake: Right. Karen Blair: The first day you step into a classroom as a bona fide teacher. Robert Blake: Right, right, right, a real teacher.

Karen Blair: A real teacher. So I can understand why that would be difficult initially. Karen Blair: So you were in Western Massachusetts? Pittsfield. Robert Blake: Pittsfield, Massachusetts. Yeah, for two years. Karen Blair: In the same school? And is that 9th grade biology, 9th, 10th grade?

Robert Blake: It was. Let's see. I think I had… Yes. And it was interesting. There were two high schools in the city. Robert Blake: One was considered the good school and one was considered the not so good school. Robert Blake: I was in the not so good school. That was the comprehensive high school. Robert Blake: The one that had shop and votech, you know. And if you look back at the literature of Jeannie Oakes, when she wrote in the mid 80s about keeping track,

Robert Blake: and students that are in vocational and technical programs tend to be tracked into, from lower socioeconomic status, backgrounds, tend to get lower educational opportunities of quality. Robert Blake: There's not a push, at least for some of the students, to pursue college. Robert Blake: Whereas the other school was considered the college prep school. Robert Blake: And so, you know, here's your book to teach 5 standard class sections. Don't worry, they're good kids.

Robert Blake: They may not always come prepared, but they're really good kids. That's kind of like the… Karen Blair: Did you have comparable equipment in both schools? I mean, did you feel as though you also got kind of the short end on those? Robert Blake: I don't remember. Karen Blair: You don’t remember.

Robert Blake: I know we had equipment. Definitely. Yeah. We were able, we had what we needed to teach biology, or at least to try to teach biology. Robert Blake: I can't recall. I mean, sure, maybe the rumor was out there that we didn't, but I don't think that was true. Karen Blair: So what are you thinking about your choice of careers? Karen Blair: In these two years, when you're out on your own as a beginning teacher?

Robert Blake: Yeah, I actually liked it. The stress level for me was always high. Robert Blake: And for public school teachers, at least for my personality. Robert Blake: Because no matter what happens, the students are going to show up to class. So whether you're prepared or not, Robert Blake: whether you're ready to go, whether you have everything ready… And of course science, not that I want to diminish any other discipline,

Robert Blake: but science lent itself to… You have to get a lot of stuff together. Robert Blake: So there's a lot of behind the scenes organization, so it's very stressful. Teaching's always been stressful for me because I have, in my mind, I want to be perfect, but it's never possible. Robert Blake: And so planning was always tough for me because I would always deconstruct something and then try to rebuild it. Robert Blake: And I didn't necessarily need to do that.

Robert Blake: Classroom management was my biggest issue and we never had anything on classroom management. And, you know, my conflict resolution model was not one that would work well in classrooms. Robert Blake: You know, being forceful and telling kids to be quiet and sit down or, you know, the whole punishment. Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: But really tried to get- Engage the kids. Tried to do as many what people would call lab, or non-lab but activities, engaging, trying to get them involved, critical thinking. I mean that was the attempt.

Karen Blair: Yeah. And Bob, there was no mentoring for you for new teachers? Robert Blake: Not really. Kind of. Not really. Karen Blair: System wide or in the school itself? Robert Blake: No. The one good thing that happened is between my first year and 2nd year, a woman came in by the name of Lois Dorso

Robert Blake: and involved my colleague and I in putting together curricula based on a constructivist learning model. And so we actually spent the summer writing curriculum, our own curriculum. Kind of funny. Robert Blake: Based off the three-part learning cycle of explore, concept introduction, concept application. Robert Blake: And that meshed really well with the philosophy out of Brown with the student as worker, teacher as coach, Robert Blake: less is more, conceptual understanding, engage the kids, get them doing, get them involved. So the constructivist learning model between those two things really formed a solid foundation for the rest of my teaching career. Even to today. Experiential learning, I still had to struggle with where the-

Robert Blake: I joke with my students these days, you know. Do you remember Little Mermaid? Robert Blake: You know, Flounder. And he says, then this seagull came around and said this is this, that is that. I refer to that as the lecture, you know, somewhere along the line, our job as a teacher is we have to go in there and do that. And a constructivist learning model does not negate that. But the interpretation is we just facilitate, whatever that is. Robert Blake: So that really helped out. We wrote our own curriculum. We really tried to implement it. We tried to engage the kids in outside activities, try to engage them in looking towards… We put a science club together and engage them towards thinking what science career they could possibly do. Robert Blake: Interesting, though, in Massachusetts at the time that was the Michael Dukakis election, and it's not his fault. But you know, that was kind of a recession. So first and last.

Robert Blake: Last and first to leave. Robert Blake: I always got pink slips the second year. I'd never got a hire back, so I had to find another job and I got a high school teaching job down in Tarrytown, New York. Robert Blake: Right on the Hudson River. Robert Blake: And basically went from kind of a city-rural,

Robert Blake: that combination city-rural area, to basically an urban area. Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: That was Tarrytown, the old GM plant there right there by the Tappan Zee Bridge. Karen Blair: Yeah, that's about as urban as you can get.

Robert Blake: Yeah, and taught general science and biology. Karen Blair: And how long were you there? Robert Blake: One year. And again it was the issue of… Robert Blake: It was interesting. I was looking at my career at that time. My sister was in Chicago beginning a doctorate program in University of Illinois Chicago. She had a two year old son, one year old, two year old, probably one year old.

Robert Blake: And I it started to pique my curiosity about pursuing a PhD and for me it would serve two purposes. Robert Blake: One, because I was teaching science, a PhD necessitates that you do research. Robert Blake: And so I thought that by going out and doing research, it would better enable me to be a better teacher of science. Robert Blake: And then the other one was I was thinking that it would set me up for the rest of my life,

Robert Blake: in terms of depending on what I wanted to do in teaching. I hadn't really considered higher education, and again, my dad was a higher ed person and a teacher. Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: Neither my sister nor I and my brother had any inkling that that's where we were going to go. Robert Blake: And for her both my sister and me, that's where we went. And we ended up in higher ed. So, something.

Robert Blake: So I ended up, and it's interesting. I was offered a job in northern New Jersey. Robert Blake: Beautiful town, beautiful school, would have been perfect. I was offered a job to set up this environmental science program. They really liked me. They came and visited me and watched me teach and everything. And I said no. I took the chance of going to University of Illinois, Chicago, packed up my car, drove out to Chicago. Robert Blake: In a little Subaru wagon. Never- I've only been to Chicago once before. Robert Blake: And said here I am. Actually twice before. I said here I am.

Robert Blake: I’m ready to start a doctoral program. Karen Blair: And that was going to be in curriculum and instruction? Robert Blake: Yes, technically it was curriculum and instruction. I like to lie and tell them it was science education. They didn't have any science education. Robert Blake: But that was my emphasis.

Karen Blair: That was the closest thing. Robert Blake: Right. It was C and I. Robert Blake: And they had some science educators around. They used to have one, John Staver, who actually moved to Kansas State University and was director of their Center for Science and Mathematics Education. Robert Blake: He was actually chairman of the board that in Kansas that rewrote the science standards to get evolution back in. It's kind of funny. The state science standards.

Robert Blake: And I drove down to Manhattan, Kansas from Chicago considering transferring to Manhattan, Kansas. Robert Blake: And I looked at Manhattan, Kansas, and It's beautiful, beautiful territory, but if you remember, I sail. Robert Blake: Chicago. Lake Michigan. Karen Blair: Uh huh. Kansas.

Robert Blake: And Kansas was beautiful, but I stayed in Chicago. Karen Blair: Uh huh. So tell me about your education there. What you learned, how that's influenced your thinking. Robert Blake: Interesting. I'm trying to think. You know, it's like one of the first professors I ever had, Bill Schubert. Robert Blake: Curriculum… I don't know what you would call him, curriculum guru. He's been around forever. He's now retired. His fundamental questions were, what is most worthwhile to learn and experience. And I thought the guy was off his rocker.

Robert Blake: You know his last class, he handed everybody an inanimate object and said, how would you structure a lesson around this? And I got a glue stick. Robert Blake: And I said like, this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. Robert Blake: But at the same time, what it did is it immersed me in the literature. Robert Blake: And it immersed me in discussing what is important in teaching. I do remember quite clearly being a thorn and a lot of my professors sides, or at least I thought I was a thorn,

Robert Blake: because we would have these seminar type classrooms and I look around this room, we'd all be sitting around these big tables and people would be talking and pontificating. Robert Blake: And as you know, the same people always talk. And me it would be like, well, Robert Blake: but what does this all have to do with classroom practice? What impact are you going to have on teachers teaching? Robert Blake: There was a question I always asked.

Robert Blake: I never really got a good answer. Karen Blair: A legitimate question. Robert Blake: But that's actually the direction my research study went in. I did get involved with a nationally recognized program and called the Teaching Integrating and Math Science program. TIMS. Not to be mistaken with the testing. Robert Blake: Put together by a mathematician and a physicist.

Robert Blake: And their approach was we needed to have this integration of mathematics and science, Robert Blake: and that we use the scientific process as a means of understanding mathematics, and so we use the scientific process for data collection starting at grade one, Robert Blake: all the way up through middle school, and then using data collection, data organization, and then data interpretation. Robert Blake: And at first I was somewhat resistant to their push for quantitative, quantitative, quantitative, because I was still more of that- I was a science person, but I was still more of the holistic.

Robert Blake: But in hindsight, 20 some odd years later… Robert Blake: Yeah, it takes me, it took me, remember, I'm a slow starter. It definitely made an impression on me. I mean, because you can engage with little kids. I have a 2 year old. And at first grade you can engage them in in data collection. I was more interested in the holistic. Like, let's look at let's look at earthworms and play with earthworms and see what their body structures are like. Let's look at their behavior. Robert Blake: Let's look at mealworms. I wasn't necessarily into asking about the relationships between variables. Robert Blake: If I have a ramp, how, when I raise the height of the ramp, how does that impact the distance the car goes?

Robert Blake: Or if I have a bouncing ball, if I raise the height of dropping the ball, how high will it bounce? Robert Blake: And with those two experiments, you basically get the power of data collection and data interpretation because you get straight line graphs. Robert Blake: And so then you can start interpreting from your graph with data that you never even collected. Robert Blake: Because the graph, you have that direct relationship between, you know, if I drop the ball from 2 feet-Well, obviously metric, because remember the big push in metric in the 70s.

Robert Blake: If I drop the ball off, say, from three feet, a super ball bounces 2 feet and a tennis ball bounces 1 foot. Robert Blake: Well, that's consistent throughout. So you get this nice straight line. So now you can do interpolation and extrapolation and things like that, and it's just the power of that. Robert Blake: So that actually once I really started thinking about combining those two approaches, the holistic, the behavior, looking at the organisms plus the data collection, things started coming together for me a little better in terms of trying to teach science. Karen Blair: Somehow you started your interest, and I'm not quite certain how this happened, was focusing on early learners.

Karen Blair: So you're looking at elementary age teaching in addition to high school biology. Karen Blair: And then you come in with high school biology. Robert Blake: Go figure. Right. Karen Blair: And come out of that doctoral program, and it's a broader kind of application or understanding.

Robert Blake: Go figure. Yeah. Robert Blake: And I'm in the elementary education department. Go figure. Because when I got out of the program at University of Illinois Chicago, I went back to teach middle school. Karen Blair: OK. Robert Blake: Which actually was probably the best thing that ever happened to me.

Robert Blake: One of the best things, because it allowed me to actually get into an elementary education department that back in 1997 had this notion that they were going to pursue middle school, which didn't happen until 12 years later. Robert Blake: Very interesting. My research was in a 6th grade classroom which by certification realm is elementary. Robert Blake: But really it was, and it was in an elementary school in Chicago. Robert Blake: And it was, yeah, 6th grade.

Robert Blake: Was it 6th grade, 5th? See, look at this. My dissertation. I'm forgetting. I think it was fifth. It was fifth grade. Robert Blake: You know, technically that's upper elementary, but still in elementary and that's what got me in there. But what was interesting is we were having this conversation yesterday in our- Let’s see. Wednesday, Monday, in our elementary Education Department meeting. Robert Blake: We're having this conversation about a new evaluation system for our students Robert Blake: compared to an older evaluation system of a portfolio.

Robert Blake: And I liken it to what's going on right now with the new Common Core standards and then the testing. Robert Blake: Even back in the 90s, in all the reading I did in my doctoral program, I saw a heavy emphasis on curriculum. Robert Blake: Certainly in the sciences from the 60s and the 70s, what are we going to teach the kids, to how well they did the test, and ignored pretty much everything in between, which was called teaching. Robert Blake: And I thought that to be quite spectacular that there was, and I probably could have been wrong,

Robert Blake: But there was not a lot of information on really what good teachers are doing in the classroom. It was more the, let's get the right curriculum, and then let's test them. But let's not pay attention to what real teachers are doing. So that's where my focus was, and that's where I've pretty much been ever since, is what's going on in the classroom. Robert Blake: And now, and I think you mentioned this whole notion of how, how did I get from- It's interesting, because you’ve got to be careful what you say. Robert Blake: Bill Schubert started out as an elementary teacher. And he actually… Robert Blake: Yeah. And of course someone made some comment and then that, you know, if you're a high school teacher, you can always go down to elementary. But if you're in elementary, you can't go up. And I probably said that to him.

Robert Blake: I'm surprised he even talks to me anymore. Robert Blake: But yeah, I ended up going in elementary and now I try to champion science teaching in elementary school. Robert Blake: Probably not doing a good job of it, since it doesn't get taught, but it's interesting how I came from a high school to a middle school teacher to an elementary education department. Karen Blair: And so here you've been at Towson, you came in 1997.

Karen Blair: And what kinds of things have you been doing? Robert Blake: Wow, for a long time… It's interesting. I was brought in, in a job description that I had to rummage up at one point to reinforce to my bosses in the College of Education Robert Blake: that I was brought in here to teach science, and to bridge between the College of Science and Mathematics, where all our science methods courses are, Karen Blair: Right.

Robert Blake: and the College of Education. Robert Blake: And so at that time, we had a- They had, I didn't have anything to do with it, and they had an NSF funding program called the Maryland Collaborative Teacher Preparation. Robert Blake: Which was taking elementary education students and giving them special attention in constructivist learning model pedagogy, Robert Blake: in addition to mathematics and science content understanding, and science and mathematics and science content understanding that was changed. The courses were supposed to represent a constructivist model in terms of how they taught.

Robert Blake: Meaning the professors, as opposed to a traditional college model of lecture, rote memorization. Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: And I got involved with that and then ended up running what I’m pretty sure was the first professional development school in the state of emphasized science. It was environmental science up in Harford County. Robert Blake: And so I was- And it was elementary.

Robert Blake: But it was elementary slash middle which is where that middle school experience… Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: Which got me in the door, I think. Robert Blake: And you were on faculty then?

Robert Blake: I can't remember what department. Karen Blair: The name of my department changed over time. Robert Blake: It's, it's gone. But I was interviewed by both science and elementary education people. So. Karen Blair: When you came into…

Robert Blake: When I came here. Yep. And so that's where I started between the two colleges. I was out in the field doing student teaching supervision, trying to do initially student teaching supervision, and then got involved with the science education and the science component, got involved with that, got involved with the secondary science methods, Robert Blake: which was to a certain extent nonexistent. Robert Blake: It was existent, but they didn't have a consistent person there. We were known for not- For having a secondary education science program, but having no dedicated faculty for secondary science education. Robert Blake: So anybody who was involved, at least from the College of Ed side, was an elementary Ed at best.

Robert Blake: So I got involved with that and ran professional development school. But when you're running a PDS, you're not focusing only on science, but we did that, I got an Eisenhower grant at the time to engage faculty, school-based faculty, and interns in what would be considered project based learning. Robert Blake: One of the schools I worked with, William S James, that was their focus, project based learning. Asking overarching driving questions to run the school year. Their driving question for their entire year of the school was, how can we save the Chesapeake Bay? Robert Blake: Kind of a broad, you know, save baby ducks and whales question, but… Robert Blake: And they tried to integrate that throughout their curriculums and so we would engage with, we would run workshops, we would get involved with the Chesapeake Bay Foundation and trips with them, and then realized that we could do our own stuff. We meaning a few of us who were involved in it.

Robert Blake: And so continued to pursue… Once I got out of PDS, I was involved in the science education and then also in the elementary education foundations courses. Not a great, not a word I really like. Robert Blake: Foundations. But really, the course is foundational to everything else. I'd like to like to call it now Historical and Contemporary Issues in Education. Robert Blake: And then from that came the first major book that we published, the Inside-Out book through NSTA Press, National Science Teachers Association, Robert Blake: which focused on getting kids and teachers moving from inside the classroom to outside and investigating the environment around them. So that that book was interesting because that was actually the- It came out in 2010, was a culmination of pretty much my whole time from 97 to 2010.

Robert Blake: You would think I'd have more to show for my 13 years but… Karen Blair: Not necessarily. I haven't read the book, so I don't know, but I might be… Over that period of time it sounds like you've been involved in a variety of curricular considerations and instructional methodologies, Karen Blair: and so I think one of the things I would love to hear more about is where that's landed you, that sort of journey you've taken here in a variety of different ways, Karen Blair: in terms of how do we prepare teachers of science, especially at the elementary level?

Robert Blake: Tough questions, boy. You're kind of like the Terry Gross of oral history here. Karen Blair: I'm sorry. Robert Blake: Yeah. I like Terry Gross, so. Karen Blair: Well, I'm just, yeah. And I'm not saying that this is the definitive answer because we know that there never is a definitive answer, and it is somewhat situational.

Robert Blake: It's a great question because where has it landed us, me specifically, but us, in the teaching of science in the elementary classroom. Robert Blake: I guess. Robert Blake: Currently, as acting chair of the department, unfortunately my duties have pulled me out of teaching, Robert Blake: and one of them being, you know, I'm no longer in the field of teaching, you know, helping students learn how to teach science in the elementary classroom.

Robert Blake: The last two years I got back to the field studies course for science teaching, and we were up in northern Baltimore County, Robert Blake: and, you know, I pretty much threw my students right in, with the blessing of the mentor teachers there. Robert Blake: I'm not one to provide model lesson plans. I don't do what the other science educators consider traditional scaffolding. Robert Blake: We spend some time deconstructing what they're trying to teach,

Robert Blake: and then rebuilding it up to what they think is, you know, most important for kids to know and do. And then I help them learn how to construct meaningful learning experiences. Robert Blake: So my approach tries to get them to think about if, no matter where they go, they can figure out how to engage kids in meaningful learning experiences. Robert Blake: So that that's kind of my approach. Where does that lead us or where has that lead me? It's actually led me to frustration. Robert Blake: And it's frustrating because when I was putting material together for a grant proposal that I did not get through the Spencer Foundation,

Robert Blake: one of my goals would be to do something similar to this. Robert Blake: But sit down with real teachers in the elementary classroom and find out from their stories, from observing them, Robert Blake: how are they successful? Robert Blake: Quote, successful, and we're not talking MSA successful.

Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: You know, 5th grade MSA test, Maryland State assessment test. Karen Blair: But there's… Is there any reason to believe that those couldn't happen concurrently? Robert Blake: Right, no.

Karen Blair: Learning and good score on that. Robert Blake: Right. No, I agree with you exactly. I mean, that's possible. Robert Blake: Right. And the lot we have is that we, you know, the students take the tests and they're supposed to do well. Robert Blake: So can we do both?

Robert Blake: And we should be able to do both. Robert Blake: But how are teachers who are considered successful actually doing that? Robert Blake: What are they doing in the classrooms in the elementary classrooms to engage kids in science that actually promote, you know, curiosity, promote interest, Robert Blake: Promote students to do their own investigations and research about pretty much anything. And does that link to higher, you know, we could ask the question does that link to higher test scores with those teachers?

Robert Blake: But the frustration I have is, very much probably when you get a social studies person in here, is the fact that, you know, for years, the two disciplines are not tested. Robert Blake: And so the emphasis has not been on them. The other issue is there's this… Robert Blake: And we'd have to go back to the research literature on it. And I haven't read much lately, but I know back when I was in my doctoral program, you have the, you know, the stereotypes of science being, you know, hard. Robert Blake: Science being factual based.

Robert Blake: The other issue of, you know, science being more a pursuit by men, especially the hard sciences and engineering, Robert Blake: which is wonderful because we have a female science educator here who's an engineer. I joke with her, she's phenomenal. And I joke that she's an anomaly, a woman, scientist, and engineer. Robert Blake: And that women, you know, this idea that women and girls don't pursue science because it's hard, because it's not fun. Robert Blake: So you struggle with that stereotype, and I still see some of that today, not as much, but part of that links to- The reason I bring that up is because many of our elementary teachers are women.

Robert Blake: And so the question is, do we have this societal bias, you know, towards not science? Robert Blake: Now, I've taught with a number of taught a number of women and they're basically sick of the gender bias stuff. Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: They're like, I'm tired of this. Don't bring it up anymore.

Robert Blake: But, and again, I haven't read the literature recently on that. I think I just thought saw something that kind of headed down that path. Robert Blake: But what's frustrating is I think the time in the classroom, the idea that, you know, we don't trust teachers to construct their own experiences for kids, especially in science. Robert Blake: So we have to, sometimes we have to put kits together. That's not to say that there's no- Robert Blake: That's not to say a good curriculum isn't useful. There is, you know, no substitute for good curriculum.

Robert Blake: But can we help teachers learn how to do it, without, you know, in the absence of good curriculum. Karen Blair: Mm hm. Robert Blake: So it's frustrating. Karen Blair: I would like to go back to something that you said a little bit earlier, I think, that talked about state assessments, any kind of assessments in science, and that those don't happen early on. Did you say something to that effect?

Robert Blake: Right, I did. Karen Blair: And so science isn't evaluated in a standardized, formal kind of way until when? Robert Blake: 5th grade. Karen Blair: And is that math then? Or do you also get, do you actually get some kind of other assessment other than math?

Robert Blake: Well, and let's see, it's the No Child Left Behind Act, Karen Blair: Right. Robert Blake: which brought in literacy and mathematics from grade 3 all the way through, and then science starts at 5 and I think it goes to 8. It skips over six and seven. I could be wrong, and you know, obviously that's something I should know, right? Don't put that on the tape. Karen Blair: But we're doing, but we do math earlier.

Robert Blake: Yes, yes. Right along with Grade 3, right along with literacy. Karen Blair: Math comes in. Karen Blair: Right. Karen Blair: But it's an interesting consideration. What does that say about our sense of science and when science education begins, if we're not evaluating it until fifth grade?

Robert Blake: Well, yeah. I mean, I'm a firm… Karen Blair: I mean, we're doing reading in first. Robert Blake: Right. Karen Blair: We're doing math, well, both of them by third.

Karen Blair: So I'm wondering what the thinking is there, Karen Blair: and why we aren't examining that earlier. Robert Blake: Probably the wrong person to ask. Ask our national policy and our state policy people. Robert Blake: I'm a firm believer of what Harold Pratt, he, and I have the citation somewhere, he did a congressional hearing.

Robert Blake: He's a former President of National Science Teachers Association, and I think it was 2010. He did the hearing and he clearly told anybody who would listen to him that it's a complete fallacy to think that when we neglect science at the elementary levels, Robert Blake: students can catch up at middle school, middle level and higher. He says, that's just a- This is not a quote, but he's basically saying it's absurd to have that thinking that we can catch up, Robert Blake: and that today's push for STEM education, for example, the university is pushing for STEM education. They have the UTeach program where they want to have math and science majors get involved in schools to potentially consider teaching as a career. Robert Blake: And I agree with what Harold Pratt would say is that where we really need to get people's interest in teaching,

Robert Blake: and really being highly motivated, particularly for science, is in the elementary grades. Robert Blake: If we don't do it at the elementary grades, they're not really going to catch up in the middle and high school, and that's the thing that's, to me, that's unfortunate. That's what we're not doing. And again, does that mean we have to test it? Robert Blake: Seems to be the only way to get something emphasized. Karen Blair: But we're not even doing that until fifth grade.

Robert Blake: No. Right. Karen Blair: I had an opportunity to read your chapter and your new book and there are two things in there, Karen Blair: of course one of them that interests me, the whole book, is this idea, this concept of narrative and teacher lore in teacher preparation. Karen Blair: And the second piece was the response to your students who were preparing to be elementary teachers in terms of having to take on teaching science.

Karen Blair: And it seemed to me as I was reading the second part, their response to teaching science, Karen Blair: seemed to echo all the things that you've said here in terms of this inherent, it's not inherent, but early on, sense that science is difficult and something that they would prefer not to have to deal with. Karen Blair: Just like you to talk a little bit about that, that piece of it. Karen Blair: And the second thing, of course, is for you to talk a little bit about how you've used narrative in your teaching and your helping to prepare teachers to become teachers. So first thing maybe is, it would appear to me from having read this that we still have young women especially

Robert Blake: Right. Karen Blair: who are the overwhelming majority of our elementary teachers apprehensive about dealing with science. Robert Blake: Right. And what's interesting is that's probably, you know, the first thing I should try to get from, I used to do a reflective piece, Robert Blake: not even a reflective piece, a piece of answering a prompt, teaching in the sciences, teaching sciences.

Robert Blake: And I stopped doing that for a variety of reasons, probably because I just forgot, but a lot of times teaching was, you know, the beautiful job, science was, you know, boring, the hard facts. Teaching science is tough. It didn't always get that from the women, and the women, not all of them are adverse to science. I mean, I've got this one student who's wonderful. Robert Blake: She actually- She shows cows. She's a national champion in showing cows, and talk about a place to learn about science. You have to raise the animal. Robert Blake: If you did read that which it clearly came out in the students comments, and it comes out almost all the time. Robert Blake: I am nervous about teaching science. Yep.

Karen Blair: Yes, initially, right. Robert Blake: And then… I actually have a title of a book that is in my head which may never come out. It's a curriculum book, it's called, It's Not Rocket Science. Robert Blake: Through engaging them in taking the content and integrated it to active learning. Robert Blake: They also had the luxury of having my colleague Adam Frederick as their life science teacher,

Robert Blake: so they were immersed in content in a very exciting way, very much like the Steven Brown that I mentioned from my college experience. Robert Blake: They actually saw that science was a lot more accessible than what they initially thought. Robert Blake: Especially at the elementary level. Robert Blake: And especially with this notion, and we, we push this notion inside out, especially if you open your doors,

Robert Blake: and open your eyes, Robert Blake: and get kids to look at the world around them. There's a lot going on. Robert Blake: And it's not inaccessible now. Some would argue that if you open your doors in an urban school where there's glass on the black top, or all the grass is, and I've seen this in schools. Robert Blake: That's an issue, or we're not going to let kids out because our neighborhood is dangerous.

Robert Blake: But they came out of it. Robert Blake: Definitely, and most of them do come out of it. Robert Blake: With this notion, like, wow, I can do this. Robert Blake: And that's, you know, that's no small…

Karen Blair: No. It's a big deal. Robert Blake: I remember doing this in Chicago and you know, I told my students, I said, you know, all I'm trying to get you to do in 14 weeks is to, no small task, but to show you that you can actually teach science to elementary kids. And it doesn't have to be rocket science. You don't have to be an expert in all science content. You will have to spend some time learning it. Karen Blair: And you may actually enjoy it. Robert Blake: You might like it. You know, some of them don't. They don't like science. OK, that's fine.

Robert Blake: That happens. Robert Blake: And then the use of narrative. I came onto this a long time ago. The teacher lore, which was 1992, I think Bill Schubert and Bill Ayers put that out. Robert Blake: And what's funny is I'm now coming back to the using the term lore because narrative is so has become so part of our societal conversation. Robert Blake: You know, what's Barack Obama's narrative? What's this narrative? What's that? That it's almost passe.

Robert Blake: It started in 97 pretty much with narratives, with the idea, and I've always had pre service interns tell me this that yeah, I'd love to hear stories from people who've come before me. I'd love to hear about their experiences. I'd love to hear about what they went through Robert Blake: in order to learn how to become a teacher. Robert Blake: So the book you just read, while the way it's structured… Robert Blake: This goes back to my, you know, the idea that I wanted everything to be perfect. It's a good start, but there's more, ideally there's more to come.

Karen Blair: Of course. Robert Blake: This one looked at education in different disciplines. I just happened to do science. Robert Blake: But I think you can learn a lot from the students in terms about how they want to go about being taught. Robert Blake: But at the same time, I think the students can learn a lot about themselves when they either reread or share their experiences with others.

Robert Blake: Which I think, you know… Robert Blake: My perspective is foundational to what you're doing here as an oral history project. What are we going to learn about Towson University, Towson State College? Robert Blake: Towson Normal school. Karen Blair: Right.

Robert Blake: That we may not have known, or that we did know, but we forgot. Karen Blair: Or what do individuals who are preparing to become teachers and then become teachers in, in retrospect, what do they see as their most valuable experience in helping them to become good teachers and to view themselves in that regard, yeah. Robert Blake: Right. Robert Blake: And that goes, you know, and it goes back to what we talked about in terms of that's that middle area.

Karen Blair: Yeah, what happens? Robert Blake: What happens in the middle area? Robert Blake: You know, the notion of what's going on in the classroom. Robert Blake: And it's interesting. I always went into this profession with a PhD

Robert Blake: of thinking that teachers and I are equal. Robert Blake: You know, the traditional ivory tower and we tell them what to do. We're equal. Robert Blake: And we have certainly a variety. Robert Blake: I mean, I have my own slants. I have my own way of looking at things and my own luxuries of being able to sit in a classroom and not be a participant observer. Be a passive observer. You can't do that. But you have your own expertise, your own professional knowledge base.

Robert Blake: You have a wealth of information that you can share with us and even pre service teachers can learn from their own experiences. So that's the reason why I pursued the narrative, not to be Jerry Springer type and part of the situation in our life right now is, my wife makes- Doesn't make fun of me. Karen Blair: I’m not a blog reader. Robert Blake: And sometimes I get a little annoyed that we are now in a world where everybody's opinion matters, Robert Blake: or everybody has an opinion kind of like, you know, belly button or…

Robert Blake: So that kind of that kind of counters my notion that the power of narratives. Robert Blake: So I have to, you know. Robert Blake: What's the word? I'm a hypocrite. Karen Blair: No, you're a learner.

Robert Blake: I think in the profession I think something like this. I think if we focus on what teachers are telling us there's a lot we can learn. Karen Blair: If we have a minute left, would you comment on what words of wisdom you might provide to individuals who are considering teaching as a career? Robert Blake: Yeah, you know, it's… Robert Blake: It's an extremely difficult job.

Robert Blake: But it really is rewarding. You have to find your niche. Robert Blake: I think you lead with your passion. Robert Blake: It's definitely a profession that I think if you if you really want to be happy and successful, you have to have a passion for it. Robert Blake: It's not the type of profession where it's just a job. It becomes your life.

Robert Blake: I use the example of, I look at the world now through the lens of a science educator, Robert Blake: and I'll sit at, you know, Christmas dinner with a centerpiece that has different pine needles in there, Robert Blake: and I start looking at the pine needles and start thinking of a classification activity. Robert Blake: And I tell my students that that's the world you're going to start looking through, that's the lens you're going to start looking at the world through, so it really is the passion.

Robert Blake: And the fact that you’ve really got to like kids. Robert Blake: Contrary to popular belief, you know, when you go to an interview, why do you want to become a teacher? I love kids. Robert Blake: My opinion? That's the first thing you should say. I absolutely, absolutely, absolutely love kids and, like, helping them learn and like being around them. Robert Blake: So I mean, especially elementary, and if you've got that, it's a great career,

Robert Blake: regardless of how you're treated or how the public perceives you, or whatever else happens. Karen Blair: Right. Karen Blair: Thank you. Robert Blake: You're welcome. Thank you very much.

Karen Blair: And thank you for talking with us. Robert Blake: I appreciate the opportunity.