Interview with Norma Hauserman Campbell

Speaker 1: Norma Hauserman-Campbell graduated from the State University of New York in 1952 with a bachelor's degree in elementary education. Speaker 1: Dr. Hauserman-Campbell worked in public education and as a camp founder and director for over 20 years. She joined the Towson State College faculty in 1973. In 1983, she co-founded the Norbel School. These are her reflections. Karen Blair: Doctor Campbell, it's so nice of you to take on what is a somewhat daunting task. We would love to have you share your story, your own personal preparation to become a teacher, and that of your former husband, Doctor Billy Hauserman, Karen Blair: and what has happened since those early days. This will add greatly to our collective story about teacher education at Towson University.

Karen Blair: And I think a good place to begin is in the beginning. So if you would, would you share with us your early social context, where you grew up, what kinds of thoughts you were having about life after high school, and when you first met Doctor Hauserman? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: OK, I was born in New York, in Mount Vernon, New York, which is a lead to Westchester County and I was there through until eighth grade, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: when, at which time my dad, who was a lawyer, finally, after the Depression, managed to get a job in Buffalo, so we had to move. So we left beautiful Westchester County and moved to Buffalo, New York, and there I went to started high school, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and during my junior year, that is when I met Billy.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Before that time, I had grand notions of being an artist and a dancer, and the years that I was living in Mount Vernon in New York, I was taking dancing lessons from Cancino, who was the uncle of Rita Hayworth, and I was planning to go to Pratt Institute and to do all kinds of things like that. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But life’s events change. So once I got to Buffalo and I was in high school, I came from a family of many people who all went to college as compared to Billy. Billy came from a family where no one had ever been to school at all. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so our backgrounds were very different. I was used to being a student. He was used to being an athlete, which he was, and he was very, very good looking. A four-letter athlete. And during my junior year I remember how we met. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I was selling tickets to- I belonged to a social club of girls and we were sponsoring a dance. So I saw Billy in the cafeteria at lunchtime and I approached him and said would you consider buying a ticket to this dance?

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And he said yes, I'll buy two if you'll go with me. If you'll be my date. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So that's how it started, and I never dated another person, as a matter of fact. We immediately clicked and so we were together all through the rest of that spring, and then our senior year, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: which was unheard of at that time, when we graduated from our senior year, he presented me with a small diamond and said that he wanted to marry me. And would I agree? And I said yes, yes I would. But in the meantime, we had to decide where we were going to go to college. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I was offered a scholarship. I could have gone to a fancy girl’s school.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But Billy, of course, had no money. And in those days in New York State, if you wanted a free education, you had to go to a teacher's college. And so I did come from a teacher family. My mother was a renowned reading specialist in Western New York by that time. So it, that seemed reasonable. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And Billy, of course, had to go there. So we picked Brockport, and we both enrolled there and that's what started our education towards being teachers. Karen Blair: Norma, could you tell us a little bit about your program at Brockport? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Yes, I certainly can. I would have to say in retrospect, because I've been to a lot of universities since that time, I would have to say that that was the luckiest thing that ever happened to us, that we went to Brockport State Teachers College, which is what it was called at that time. It later became SUNY New York, but it wasn’t then.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And the classes were very small and we had wonderful professors. I mean, for example, I remember Billy and I taking classes in in biology, and that our biology teacher took us out and we collected maple syrup from the trees Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and I took it home and cooked it, you know? And we turned it into maple syrup. And we took all kinds of hikes and weekend trips different places. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I had an English teacher who taught us American modern novel, and he would invite us to his house so that we could talk about the novels and what they meant. I mean, I don't think anybody today could get anything like that. When I went to the University of Maryland, you know, many years later, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and I saw the size of the undergraduate classes, hundreds and hundreds, and the professors weren't even the teachers. That was just the, you know, their student helpers, who did most of the lecturing. And I thought, oh my, oh, how lucky Billy and I were.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So that was, it was great. It was just great. Karen Blair: Do you remember anything about the education courses you took or certainly about your student teaching? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Oh, absolutely, I can tell you about that. We did that in our junior years. But before that time we just took regular education courses, of course, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and statistics and the things that related to, you know, educational principle and procedures.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But then when we were in our junior year, we had to student teach in two different- Took the entire semester and you went to two different locations, and one of mine was in a suburb of Rochester, and Billy’s was somewhere 20 miles in another direction. I don't remember. Leroy, he was in Leroy, New York. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And he had something, we both had something like fifth grade, which was probably, as it turned out later, not my favorite. Not my favorite placement, although we were both in elementary ed. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so that was quite an experience and we both did well. And then the second one, I was brought back to the campus because Brockport had a school of practice, much like Towson University’s, very similar to Towson's Lida Lee Tall. And so there I was in the 1st grade, and I had an opportunity to use my history, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: which could take time to tell you a little bit of history about why I would be interested in teaching reading, because my mother was a specialist in reading and she defied convention

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and insisted on having individualized instruction. So naturally, I was very interested in that, and wanting to teach children to read. I thought, and still continue to think, that there's two very important parts of education. The most important thing, if you could only teach one thing, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: you had to teach children to read, because that will be their lifelong growth experience. So they had to learn how to read. And then the second thing, which I’ll address maybe a little later, was an affective curriculum. You know, we've all heard about things like the emotional IQ, you know, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and thinking that how you succeed in life has got to do less with your academic achievements and more how you get along with people, and how you present yourself, and whether or not you can be a team member, and all those kinds of things. And that all comes from an affective curriculum, and our educators, even today, they don't do an adequate job. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: When I described to you a little later, my private school, you’ll know that we address that very, very well.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So that was, those were our experiences both of us, for student teaching. Karen Blair: And were you both fairly happy with that choice of becoming a teacher? Did it seem like an appropriate place for you to be? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: It was probably more appropriate for Billy than it was for me, although I didn't know it at the time. I thought it was going to be OK because I came from a teaching family. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: For Billy, in his background in his childhood, he was he was selected for special attention from an elementary school principal who saw that he, Billy came, you know, from a tough side of the city. And he came from a family who'd… No one had ever gone to college.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: They weren't even thinking along those lines. They were blue collar people. And for this principal to single out Billy and to say, you're special, Karen Blair: Right. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and he got him into sports, and he got him into scouting. And before Bill was done, he was an Eagle Scout and an explorer scout. He was all of those things by the time I actually met him, and his love of outdoor education was founded from this principal. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And it carried him through, because even when he got his doctor's degree, that was his thesis, outdoor education. So for him it was a done deal, so to speak.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: For me, I wasn't too sure what I wanted to do at the time. If anything, if I was going to be a teacher, I definitely wanted to teach children to read. That's all I knew at that point. 00:10:10 Karen Blair So here you are. End of your senior year. And what are you thinking and what were your plans? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Well, we didn't know where we wanted to go, but who came to who came to our college was somebody from a very, very, very wealthy town called, New York State and Long Island, Great Neck Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Great neck, Long Island. Thank you. And they hired us immediately as a couple, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and we were both honor students and so they thought they had a good deal. And so we proudly said that we got the highest – you’re going to laugh when I tell you this - we had the highest paid entry position in teaching for the whole state of New York. And guess what it was.

Karen Blair: Wow, I can't imagine. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: $3100. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: We both headed out to Great Neck Long Island on $3100 each. Karen Blair: And when was this, Norma?

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: This was 1952. We graduated, it’s an interesting story, we graduated in June 1952, and Billy's a grandmother and father came, and my mom and dad, and we were still wearing our caps and gowns when we went home to our apartment. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: By the way, Billy and I married when we were at the end of our end of our sophomore year. So we were two years married, and in those days, everyone looked askance at us, thought maybe I was pregnant, which I wasn't. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But because in in those days nobody ever was married in college, unless they were a vet coming back from the Second World War. Other than that, nobody young was married. But we were. So we were special in that regard. Anyway, they hired us and we set out. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But the day we graduated, we took our relatives and we went home to our little apartment, opened up the mail,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and in the mailbox was a letter to Billy from Uncle Sam saying, so, now you have graduated, all of two hours ago. Karen Blair: Oh my heavens. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And now keep us informed as to your whereabouts, wherever you go, which of course, we had to do, so we headed out in September to Great Neck, Long Island Norma Hauserman-Campbell: to start teaching, and we both were in different parts, he got all the rich kids and I got the professional engineers, but not the moneyed people. And that's sort of funny, because at Christmas time he got presents that were worth hundreds of dollars. And I got apples and…

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: However, Uncle Sam followed us. And sometime in November, they said, we want you. And so they were going to allow him to finish the semester. Which meant that by Christmas holiday he was never going to go back and teach, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and that he had to report to New Jersey, to the army. And we didn't know where he was going to go or what was going to happen to him. But as it was. So I remember that very well, the morning that we put him on the train, crying all the way. And I was very, very sad. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I left the apartment and moved in with my aunt and uncle, who were back in Mount Vernon, still in Mount Vernon, New York, and I drove every day for that semester to Long Island to my job. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And that was very sad. And it turned out Bill was sent to uh, Fort. I forget where it is..

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: In the end of Tennessee and Kentucky, Fort Knox. Fort Knox? Fort Campbell, Fort Campbell, Kentucky, and I took my little $3000 salary and every month that I got paid, I jumped on an airplane and flew down to be with Bill for just for the weekend. And while we- Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Of course, and he was doing basic training there, and we still had no idea where he was going to be sent when he finished basic training. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So at the end of that year, I knew I wasn't going to stay any longer in Long Island, but I didn't want to sign a contract anywhere else because if he was going to be in the in the United States, I wanted… So I left my first year of teaching with no contract to do anything. In the meantime, my dad had died of a heart attack very suddenly. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I figured, well, I'll go back to Buffalo, New York, and stay with my mother in Amherst, New York, until we see where they're going to put Bill.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And that's what I did. And then, as it turned out, he got the word that he was going to be sent to Korea. Karen Blair: And when did that happen? How long… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: That was… They didn't give him that information almost until he finished his basic training, which was in the summer. So at that time, by the way, Bill and I and my brother and his wife, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: we owned a summer camp for children in the Pocono Mountains.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so I was there with my brother and sister-in-law running it, and they gave Bill his leave, so he arrived in his army uniform to spend a couple of weeks with us. And then he was shipped off. And then he was going out to California to get on a boat, on a big ship, to go to Korea. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: At that time, they were still fighting in Korea, but it was almost over, so we were hopeful that he wouldn't be carrying guns and shooting people. Also, they liked his background in education, so when he did get to Korea, they immediately, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: first of all they tried to talk him into being an officer, to go to office, and he said no way. I just want two years and out. But they used him, they put him in in some sort of teaching function, so he was safe. In the meantime I went back to live with my mother and I thought, well, now what am I going to do with this year? You know? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I decided I would try to sell clothing in a ladies clothing store, and I lasted about two weeks there.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Some cute little lady that I was trying to sell something to, she says to me, What are you doing here? She says, you you're never going to make it out. She says, I watched you with all the other people, and they're racing around and they're trying to take all your clients away from you. She says, I don't know what you're doing here, but you're not cut out to be a salesperson. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I said, well, you're absolutely right. And I'm just here temporarily until I decide what I'm going to do. So I began looking in the newspaper and there was an advertisement from some Catholic charity, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: some Catholic group who had a program for teaching deaf and hard of hearing children where you could get a master's degree in one year in conjunction with the University of Buffalo. And of course, we were living very near the University of Buffalo. And so I thought, oh, let me look in to see what that is about. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: If I could do that in one year then I wouldn't be wasting this year. I'd at least get a degree out of it. So that's what I did. So I went and I learned how to deal with children who were hard of hearing and deaf,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and in those days they didn't want you to use signing. They wanted all the children to learn how to talk, so they didn't allow me to learn even how to do that, unfortunately. Yeah, now I'm sorry because that turned out that wasn't the wisest thing, but that's what I did. Karen Blair: Right. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I had to do a thesis from Buffalo and take a lot of courses there at night, and all day long I was down at this at this school for the deaf. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I got my master’s degree in June. I was finished.

Karen Blair: Wow. And that was in… Deaf education? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Well, let's see. That was in teaching the deaf and hard of hearing. And that was what it was, a Master’s degree, an EDM of some… Or MS, I'm not too sure which. Karen Blair: I see. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But anyway, meanwhile, now we knew where Billy was going to be, and he was writing to me every night. We both wrote for the whole time he was gone. The 17 months, neither one of us ever missed a single night writing. We never, never, never missed a night. And so he told me that he wanted to go to the University of California UCLA

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: to get his Master’s degree as soon as he got out, and that if I would move to California and established residency a year in advance, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: then it would be absolutely free. Plus we'd have money, some GI money to support him also. So that's what I did. So I looked up to see where I could teach deaf and hard of hearing children. It turned out to be a profoundly wonderful experience because those are the early days of mainstreaming. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I discovered that by going to Lawndale, California, they loved having me and they had a mainstreaming program where each county took a different handicapping condition. Lawndale took deaf and hard of hearing. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And another county took everybody who was visually impaired and so on. So each county had a different handicap. So therefore I was going to teach in Lawndale, California. I lived with a good friend of mine who was out there in the movie business, and I spent a year living with her and waiting for Billy to come home.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And that was wonderful. And my assignment was to take these 12 little deaf and hard of hearing children. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: They all had a little bit of hearing, some more than others. Not much. But then I was to, I was responsible for teaching them to read and to have language and to understand language and to and to work on their speech, so that it was clear, their enunciation. And then I was to make friends with the whole staff and sort of endear myself and. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: You part of it? Not to just hide out in my little room, right, but to do everything that all the other teachers did so that they would like me, so that therefore I could take each child, because they were all varied ages too, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and see if I could get them a teacher to accept a child for as many hours as we thought the child could handle, and mainstream the child. And that's what we did.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I was there for two years because Billy, of course, was not home until our during our second year. And but I was now already or a resident out there. And so when he, during my second year of teaching he came home in January, that ended his two years. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And he came out to California with me and started his work at UCLA. Karen Blair: And did you find, when you tried to mainstream these children who were hearing impaired, that that was an effective strategy? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I thought it was wonderful. It was a wonderful strategy.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But it meant that everything had to be done individually. No two children were the same. You couldn't just force it on them. And we certainly couldn't ask the teachers who were there to be responsible for working on their language and their reading. I mean, that was still my job. So that I had them for part of the day. And I was to deal with those parts of what they had to do. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: We couldn't put that on the teachers. So they, their job was to try to get the children accepted and to and to, you know, be as normal as they could in a normal classroom for whatever they could handle. It worked great. It worked just great. Karen Blair: So Billy does his master's degree and is that once again in… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: At UCLA? In outdoor education, that's what he specialized in. That's what his thesis- He had to write a paper, and we became pregnant with our first child. And I remember one incident very clearly,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: that in order for him to graduate and for us to pack up and leave, to get home in time to open up our camp in July- Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Heidi was supposed to be born at the end of July, so I was already 8 months pregnant, and we were packing up all our households of this little house that we bought in in Lawndale, and pack it all up in a new station wagon that we bought. But he still had to turn in a couple of papers, because for all his genius and all his creativity, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and, you know, he was that, he was very creative, but he was not very well organized. Of the of the pair of us, I was the organizer. So here we were and he wasn't going to get his degree unless he handed in his last paper with the bibliography. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I agreed that I would ride with him to the university and while he attended his last class, even though I didn't know how to type, I would pick and peck and I would type this bibliography that he had, it was it was about like 90° here I was out to here with Heidi, unknown who it was,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and the sweat was rolling down my face and along comes this policeman who is part of the guard of the UCLA. And he says to me, lady, you can't park here. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: There and he looked at me and he says, wait a minute, he says, I can see you have all you can handle. He says, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So just pretend I didn't even find you. Go ahead and finish whatever you're doing. Please don't die on me. So that was it. So he graduated, we got in the paper, and we traveled across the country on our way to Geneseo New York. And that's where he had his- He was hired to interview for the 5th grade. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: To teach the 5th grade at the Holcomb School, and that was like the Lida Lee Tall. They had a school of practice, and that was a beautiful, beautiful town.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Geneseo, New York, it was part of the New York State system, same as Brockport. Only this was Geneseo, which is a suburb of, not Buffalo, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: suburb of Rochester. Karen Blair: So you're still in in the more western part of the state. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: We were still in the western part of the state. However, we had to first go to camp, and run this camp, and here I was out to here. So I had to find a doctor out there in the middle of our camping experience and have a baby, which turned out to be our first child, our daughter.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so that's how we ran that camp that summer. Karen Blair: Now, Norma, you have mentioned the camp incidentally. Would you like to share with us how that all got started? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Well, my mother many, many, many years before, during the depression, she wanted to get her children out of- She had three children. I was the baby of the three of us. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And plus, there were some nieces and nephews floating around, and so my grandfather, who owns some property in the Poconos, gave her this little piece of land,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and said that she could have, she could use the cottage that was on it and take us out there. And that was the beginning. And then the next year, she brought a few other friends and we went out there, and first thing you know, we had like 30 little kids, all of us. And then she had a chance to buy a piece of property up the road a mile. And she decided that she would start a girls’ camp. Karen Blair: I see. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: She didn't want to do boys, but she would do girls. And so she started a girls’ camp. And I was at that time about four. That must have been like 1933, 1934. And she had that for many, many, many years, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and as a matter of fact, when I first met Billy, I was a counselor at my mother's camp, and Billy came out and he worked for her. He was, he taught the horseback riding, and he taught swimming, and everything else that needed to be taught that had to do with sports, he did. And that was how we started.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And then my mother said, you know, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I have another little property down the road a ways and it's enough that if you- Why don't you guys start a boys camp, she says, because all my parents keep asking me why don't you take the brothers? She says, I don't want the boys, but you and my brother Jack - so we have the three of us then. She says, but you can do boys, and of course Billy likes outdoor education, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and Jack likes canoeing and all that kind of stuff. So you start a boys camp. So that's what we did. And we owned it for 20 years, and it grew from only 7 to 10 kids the first year. Two, we had over 100. We had over 100 and it lasted for 20 years. And then we sold it eventually. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So that was it.

Karen Blair: OK, so we have you now at Billy is teaching in another school of practice, and another state of New York Teachers’ College. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Yes, another teachers’ college at Geneseo, and they specialized in elementary education plus libraryship. So librarians went to school there also. That was their other specialty. Karen Blair: And you have a daughter. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And we had a daughter, and she was such an easy baby. But I got talked into hurrying up to have a second child because Bill said he wanted a son. And I secretly wanted. I love my sister. We were very close. Uh-huh. So I wanted to give Heidi a sister. Ha ha ha.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So we hurried and we had a baby very soon after, which was only 15 months later, turned out to be Billy, not a daughter, but a son. So that suited Bill. And of course I love Billy too. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But they are like night and day difference. And Heidi, Heidi was sleeping at age 3 weeks, she was sleeping all night, but she stayed up all day. So I just carried her around on my back. Whatever. She wouldn't nap or anything. She was up all day long. I didn't mind at all. Cause she was a doll and easy. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And then I'd put her to bed at 8:00 and she wouldn't stir until 8:00 the next morning. Well, as it turned out, Billy was just the opposite. There was no way he was going to do that. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So that got to be a bit of a problem.

Karen Blair: So at that time you were being a mother and a homemaker. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I was being a mother and a homemaker, and at the end of a of two years doing that, we had a chance to save a lot of money by being parents to a sorority of girls. And so they would pay us each a small salary, because still Bill was the only salary. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I think he was earning like $8000 a year or something like that. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So we grabbed that chance. So now we were the mother and father surrogate of 30 girls living in a sorority house. And my job was to mother and take care of the girls, and Bill’s job was to fix the plumbing and the electricity and everything that went wrong. And so we did that for two years, and that was called the Clio House.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And that was- Billy was born there and then we stayed there until we decided we had enough money to buy a house of our own in Geneseo. We had no idea how long we were going to be there. Karen Blair: Very nice. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But by that time I was already pregnant with who has turned out to be Tony. He was definitely planned. So I didn't make that same mistake. We waited a little more time. So Billy was going to be like 3 or so when Tony was born. And then we… That's it. And then we had a fourth son. Karen Blair: I see.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And then we had a fifth son. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I mean a fifth child, that was four sons in a row. I never did get… And I said to Bill, that's it. To poor Heidi, I'm sorry. There's no sister for you. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I can’t. This is it. This is it. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But when I was pregnant with my fourth child, by this time Billy was traveling once or twice a week to Buffalo, New York, to the University of Buffalo to work on his EDD. And I had agreed that that I would do whatever was necessary to help him. He would come first.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And of course I wasn't working at the time. I had all these little babies. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But I was… I did learn how to sew, and my first gift to him was, he said to me, I can't stand the heat. And the staff had all had to go every year to all of the graduations, every year. So he said to me, would you learn how to sew and make me a cap and gown, where it closes in the front, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and I can wear shorts underneath, and make it out of lightweight cotton. None of this dark serge stuff, and I could hide everything, so I could just have my underwear on underneath it. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I did. I learned how to do that and I can't believe it. I actually made his- I made the cape that they wear, and I didn't make his mortarboard, that we bought, but everything else. And so he kept that for years, all the time, every time that he had to go to these ones at Towson University, you know, 10, 15,

Karen Blair: Right. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: 20 years later, he was still wearing that homemade cap and gown. Karen Blair: And that certainly wasn't a first sewing project. Karen Blair: I mean, usually you make an apron or a skirt or…

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: No, but I had a good friend. Well, I leaned on a very good friend that we had there and she was a wonderful seamstress. And she guided me and helped me and made sure I didn't make any mistakes. And so I was trying to learn how- And Billy and I would go once a week into out into the University of Rochester. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Where they had classes in art, and Billy took furniture making, and I took oil painting, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: because, remember, I was still trying to be an artist. And so those were wonderful years. I loved our… We were there seven years, I believe, in Geneseo, and I loved being a faculty wife. I learned a little bit how to play bridge, not much, but a little bit. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But I was very busy with all these- and Billy was taking, he was teaching 5th grade and he was taking them all out for a week in the woods, camping,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and I had to go along and be the chief cook and, you know, and make sure everything… Because he insisted that the kids had to do all the shopping and all the planning of the foods. And I kept saying, yeah, but you better let me be in on that because I don't want to go out in the wilderness Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and discover that they forgot to buy half of the stuff and I'm responsible. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Especially, I was bringing little babies with us, you know, and they're crawling around in this dirty place, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and so it was, it was an unusual time, but I loved every bit of it. And Billy loved doing all his stuff with his, with his outdoor education. He was right up his alley. And then he realized that once he got his doctor's degree, that he really couldn't stay there, because you couldn't get promoted. I mean, you know.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: They thought of him as belonging in the in the school of practice,. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and he wanted to move to another level. And so that's when we began to look around to see, and he got this opportunity to go to East Stroudsburg, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: which happened to be a very, very close to where our camp was. And so we grabbed that opportunity and we went there. Karen Blair: So you have 5 young children in tow and….

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Ranging from… I had five children in seven years, Heidi was 7 when Jesse was born. So we took…And so we moved there and we bought a mansion. Karen Blair: Alright. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Oh, you want to hear about that mansion? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Well, that mansion was owned by A. Mitchell Palmer, who was the attorney general under Wilson. and as it turned out he was crazy. Later on, he turned out to be a crazy person and he thought that there were aliens looking down from the sky on us, and so he was setting up,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: he was setting up so he could look at the sky from the roof of this mansion that we bought, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and he put in an Otis elevator. I mean, this was a 22 room mansion. Huge, huge. So his- Karen Blair: Dare I ask how this was affordable on… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Yes. Because it had been owned by the people who owned the Penn Hotel. A very wealthy family, and they had a disaster, and it was- It got flooded while they were away.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Which made it almost uninhabitable. That didn't stop us. So it was going to- It was going up for auction, and it was going to, it was obvious that it was not going to sell for much. So we were able to buy it for something like $35,000, although it needed a tremendous amount of work. Karen Blair: Uh-huh. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And some of the pieces of furniture that you see in this apartment right now came out of that- Out of the auction that they had of all the contents of that. The piece behind you right now, and the piece that you can see over in the back of this room here, those came from that mansion. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And my job… Here I was with Jesse. Jesse was born in June on our way to camp. I keep having babies at camp. Jesse was born on his way to camp. So he was exactly… Oh, he was only three months old when we were moving to Stroudsburg, we lived in the town of Stroudsburg.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: He was teaching in East Stroudsburg State Teachers College, in the Pennsylvania chain, and so we brought in a student, we advertised for, like, a home helper student so that I could survive, because meanwhile we had to work on this mansion. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I was the wallpaper expert and the painting expert. And you won't believe this when I tell you that just painting the trim in this in this 22 room mansion took 17 gallons of paint that I painted on nothing but trim. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And the Otis elevator, which took us up to A. Mitchell Palmer's extended bedroom suite that he had, which is bigger than my entire apartment here, took 30 double rolls of wallpaper I put on it, in that one big expanse. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So you can have some idea what this place looked like. But it was- The yard was magnificent, with French doors opening up. I mean, it really was a showplace, and Billy,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: who didn't even know how to hold a hammer when I first met him in Buffalo, New York, because he had no experience, whereas my brother was raised… He could do anything with his hands. He was an engineer just by birth, plus everything he could do with his hands. Billy had to learn it all. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But before he was done, Billy was a magnificent furniture maker Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and could do anything with renovating. He rebuilt the entire kitchen to look as beautiful as the kitchen that you see in this apartment. And he could really do anything. He had my utmost respect and he worked, and he taught, and we were there for like, 2 years only. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And then something happened. He went to a conference.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And there he met somebody from Towson University who took an interest in him and said that Towson University wanted to do a project called Caps and that they wanted. They were looking for somebody to come down in conjunction and work with Baltimore City Caps program. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And would he be interested in that? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And he said, oh, yeah, I'd be interested in that. Well, I didn't like the idea at all. I said what are you talking about? We just finished renovating! Took us two years to get this place! And how will we ever sell it? I mean, this isn't something that you sell immediately, but in the meantime, in fairness to him, I had begun to take courses. We needed money during that time. Karen Blair: Yes, of course.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Because this large place took a lot of money, the upkeep was enormous. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And we had five children, and we had Shirley living with us, by the way. And so we thought, well, Shirley was, like, an education major, but she was my mother's helper. And she was wonderful and the children adored her, and so did I. So she was like an adopted daughter for us. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I realized that I had to bring in some money, so I had a chance to teach halftime at one of the public schools in Stroudsburg. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Where they needed, and it was a class that nobody else wanted to take. It was 4th grade, and it was filled with kids who were emotionally disturbed, and behavioral acting out.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Oh well, I thought. Well, I don't know how to do that, but I guess, what, I’d better bring in some money. So we did that. So we rented out a little part of the upstairs of that great big mansion. And I took this job and I went there and it didn't take me long before I realized I didn't know how to handle emotionally disturbed children. I had better begin to learn if I was going to succeed at this. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So, remember our camp was in the Poconos, and Billy and plus somebody else that we had running the camp, they were both professors in the summer at the University of Scranton. And so I began to go with them nights when they were teaching, and I began taking courses in psychology, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and I was really just trying to learn about emotionally disturbed kids, thinking still I was going to be in education, but that I would try to figure out, you know, something. So I would do a more adequate job. And I began taking classes with this wonderful, wonderful professor called Ralph Davis, whom I adored. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I got- He just caught me, and I realized, wait a minute. Maybe I'm in the wrong profession. I want to be a psychologist. This is much more to my liking. And even if I deal with children, that's OK too. But I had better, you know, get a degree. I mean, I really would like to be a psychologist.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So maybe I'll be a school psychologist or… But I'll have to learn how to do testing and all kinds of things like that, which is what I was doing at the University of Scranton. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So we did that for a couple of seasons until Bill got this opportunity. And meanwhile I began to look… I could see as a psychologist, unless you had a doctor's degree, you really couldn't do anything. So we began looking, I took a course in Philadelphia to see if I could manage that, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: but that was a very, very long commute, and it was terrible. I decided I couldn't do that. It took one course there. Then we began looking at Lehigh. Lehigh, at that time, didn't really have a clinical program, which I wanted to be, but they did have a psychology PhD program. So I was thinking maybe I could handle that. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so then Billy got this opportunity to come to Towson. And he said, you know, there's a lot of universities there, that would be your opportunity. So I really didn't vote for it, but I got out voted already. It was like, wherever building you wanted to go to, you know, to foster his growth. And he thought it was exciting.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So we packed up and we took Shirley with us. She transferred, by that time, she'd finished two years from college, so she transferred to Towson. And that's how we got to Towson University. Karen Blair: And how did you manage to sell the house? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: We didn't for quite a long time. Now we did have a cottage on the grounds that was independent. We were able to sell that immediately and that helped us and we rented it at the big house. And so we did that. But I was afraid that, oh my goodness, you know, maybe we're going to have to go back. What are we going to do with this? This is a monstrous piece of… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But he did make it beautiful. I mean, it looked lovely. So we figured… And nowadays we wouldn't be able to sell it at all. But we did. It did sell. It did sell. Eventually.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: In the meantime, we were starving, and we came to Towson and we lived in Greenbrier area in this tiny little house. And remember, now, we moved furniture from a 22 room mansion. And when the mover looked at this little house, he says to me, what are you talking about? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I'm supposed to put all this furniture in this little house? And we had said to the to the realtor who found us the house, we want to be near Towson, and we wanted to resell easily, because we still own this mansion in Pennsylvania. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And once we sell that, we could afford something bigger. So please put us somewhere that it has very good resale position, and that was this little house. So we with five children and Billy and me and Shirley, and Shirley was not married at that time. All of us were in this little house. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And we were there for two years. And meanwhile I was busy applying all over the place to see where I could go.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I was accepted to the University of Maryland. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So that was that part of the history. Karen Blair: My heavens. So after those two years, you move into a larger house. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Yes, we sold the big house, and meanwhile Shirley and I were looking all… We would take every weekend. We'd drive around. We didn't realize how small houses were in Baltimore. It's like, holy Moses. And then Towson.

Karen Blair: Well, what could compare to 22 rooms? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And we weren't going to buy any mansions. I'd already had my fill with that. But we found the house at the bottom of Bosley, and she and I were driving down the street one day and I saw it and it had a for sale sign on it, so we screeched to a halt and I ran in, and it was owned by a physician. I took one look at the house and the size of it, and it had four bedrooms. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And this addition, and it looked like a small house, but everything was to the back. So it was it was really a big house. So I said to her, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: You want to…? She says. Oh, I'm dying to sell this house. And I said, well, I'm dying to buy it. It's just you and me. Let's negotiate. We'll settle it right here. I don't want anybody else to buy this house. I mean, this is all I could afford. And so she was asking something like $35,000 which was ridiculous at that time. But that was… We settled. We bought the house on the spot.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: On the spot. And we moved into it. So that was it. Karen Blair: So the house issue is settled and taken care of now. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And we were right across the street from Towson University where Billy was working, and the children could go to the Lida Lee Tall. I mean, it was just like, it was amazing. We were thrilled. And my daughter still lives in that house. I sold it to her and her husband. So we still have all our family get togethers and traditions, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Thanksgiving and Christmas is still in that house.

Karen Blair: Wow. So Billy is working in this project still? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Project called Project Mission, it was called. And he did that for I think a year or two. I can't remember. And in the meantime, where was I at that time? At the meantime, so this was… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Now, let's see, is it OK if I look at my… I can tell you that… Before I finish, because we were always needing money... Let's see. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Well, maybe I don't have it here. Well, maybe I gave it to you. I think it was like 70, 1970. I graduated in 69 or 70.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I owed the state of Maryland a couple of years because they paid for my tuition to get my PhD. And so I had to work at Spring Grove for a year or two to pay them back. So by 72, I had met my commitment to them. And at that time, Billy had just finished, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and he was really not doing Caps anymore. He wasn’t doing Project Mission anymore, that was finished, but he still had ties to the city, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and he said to me, why don't you come and join the staff at Towson University, and the city wants a behavioral, because my PhD was in clinical and experimental psych with a specialty in behavior modification, and, you know, all that kind of good stuff and so. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so there was an experiment that was to be run at Towson University

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: in relationship with the Baltimore City schools at a junior high school down there, and they wanted somebody with an expertise in behavior modification to come and design a big program, a reward program for them. So even though I was really on the staff of Towson, that's where I was. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I was there for a year or two, I don't remember. And also I spent a little bit of time at the Lida Lee Tall. Karen Blair: And Lida Lee Tall at that point was primarily a school of practice, the demonstration school. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: It was the school of practice, but it was already the harbinger of some troubles that was to come, and I had become good friends with the with Jim Fisher, the President, of course, through Billy, and Buzz Shaw, who was a very good friend of our families, and Buzz Shaw brought me in. And he said, you know,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Now, do you think that if we brought you in and we hired you as the research director, could you go down to the Lida Lee Tall and try to make something happen there? See if you could get… Because that would be a good way that we would convince the board that our school was different, that every… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: You know, the University system could like one school if even if they give up all the rest of them. Let Towson, you know, call, bring in people from Hopkins and from Loyola, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: from everywhere that there's these PhD programs and master’s programs and people need to do educational research, they can't get to first base of Baltimore County because there's too much red tape. They can't get any of the children, they just couldn't. But we could do it at the Lida Lee Tall, providing that you made sure that it, you know… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Because you have a background in experimental psych, and so you would pay attention to the design and make sure that it was appropriate and no children were going to get hurt. So that's what we did.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And in order to prove our worth, we started producing something called Probe. I thought I was going to find one to give to the library. I can't find… I know I had them. I can't find it, but somebody at that university must still have some of those Probes. So you should look for that. Karen Blair: Absolutely. Well, the library might have some, so we'll get our archivists on it. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Because I think we produced them either two a year or four times a year, and definitely we had researchers, they flocked there from the university, from Hopkins, they loved us. And from Loyola. And then I made sure that we did some in house. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Let me see where we put our stuff. Do you see?

Karen Blair: Here's just your little bio… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: No, somewhere there was two research projects that we did. Are there are some research projects there? Maybe I'll find them later, but I'm sorry I don't have it in my hand. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I think they're over there some way. I think they're over there, but that's OK because we did, we produced, and they made it to the Journal of, like, experimental Psych. The Journal of Consulting Psychology. And I mean, they were prestigious, and we did one that that was looking at generalization of social effects of racial integration, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: because by this time we had many African American children in the Lida Lee Tall, and so I designed an experiment and I did that with Sue Walen and with, let’s see, somebody else there, and Franny Bond.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so we designed that and carried it out and we got that published. And then I did another one with Jay Miller integrating the kids into a mainstreaming program because we brought children from the Regional Institute i for Children, mostly disturbed kids. And we were mainstreaming them. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And we're trying to demonstrate that, and we were writing all that up, so we produced several good articles and I'll find that later and I'll give it to the archives. I have copies of that. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And that's what we were doing then. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So where are we in terms of questions here?

Karen Blair: Well, we're at the point where things sort of change for you, and you decide that there probably is need out there for an institution or school for kids. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Oh, before that… Oh, you know, before that, we skipped something. I got an invitation, because… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Part time… Ever since I had been to Spring Grove, the people in psychology knew who I was, you know? And so I got this invitation to come and participate and to be sort of an adjunct person, consultant at RICA. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Regional Institute for Children and Adolescents. So I was doing that a little bit part time, at the same time that I was doing all this other stuff at Towson, and then and then shortly after that, the man in charge wanted to retire.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so he suggested to the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene that they hire me as the Superintendent of RICA. And I wasn't sure I wanted to do that. But on the other hand, I began getting all my old professors from the University of Maryland, this is the first time that they've ever allowed a woman! Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I mean, now, you have to stand up for women's rights and all the things, you know, you have to do this! That they would take not only a psychologist but a woman psychologist and let her be in charge of one of the one of the hospitals? This is crazy. This is an unbelievable opportunity, you have to do it. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I went to Billy and I said, how about if I take a two-year leave of absence, and we'll see how it works, and I'll try. And it was during those two years that we made all the inroads of bringing the children to the to the Lida Lee Tall and so on. So I forgot that the order of that. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: That's when all that happened. And then at the end of the two years, in the meantime, Bill and I had decided that we would go separately, we would do our separate lives, but remain the best of friends because we always totally valued each other. But we had discovered that, at age 16 and 17, when we met…

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: We were now in our in our forties, 45, 46 years old, and we realized that we sort of had drifted in different directions, but that we could love each other and we both loved our children, and they loved both of us, and we never had a cross word between us. So we just decided that we would try that out and see if we like this. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: We would try a separation and that we would do it very nicely. We bought a house for Billy, right on halfway between the high school because by this time the kids weren't little anymore. So they could walk to the high school and on their way home, they could stop at Bill’s place or they could come home, that I would stay in the big house with the children and they'd live there primarily, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But that they could spend all the time they wanted to at Bill’s, and so that's what we did. And that has worked out great. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And until the day he died, we were very, very close. And as a matter of fact, while I was out being the Superintendent of RICA is when I ended up meeting my second husband Bob Campbell. And he wasn't in my life at all when Bill…

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I didn't even meet him until a year or two after Billy and I had decided to try a separation. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And it turned out that that worked out so well that that when Bob joined my family, Bill came to the wedding, and I would come home, I would come home from Towson University later on, and I would find Bill and Bob in the kitchen watching television together, having a beer. So that was the kind of relationship that we had. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So the children had both a father and a stepfather. And they loved them both. And that worked out great. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: That worked out great. So at the end of the two years, that was… Bob and I decided, you know what, he had written a reading program for children as part of his dissertation for his PhD and he was an experimental psychologist, a behaviorist. And so was I. So our backgrounds were great matches.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And of course I was big into the reading process. I was a reading specialist in Maryland as well as now a psychologist, PhD. So we decided, you know, Gee, when he married, I was already doing reading roost. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I had this reading roost, where Shirley was one of my teachers and several of the people who were getting a master’s degree in reading. And I was teaching a course at Towson. So I'd pick out the superstars and I'd ask them if they wanted to come and teach in my little clinic. And one of them was Bud Shaw's wife, Mary Ann Shaw. Karen Blair: There you go. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: She came and she taught in my reading clinic.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so did Dawn Keller, whom you know very well. And that worked out great. So then Bob, he saw how wonderful this little clinic was and we agreed, oh my, if we could do this magic using reward system and individualized attention, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and making tiny steps so that the children were never discouraged, imagine what we could do if we had them all day, because here we were forcing them to come, you know, at 3:00 to 5:00 after they've already been to school all day. I mean, that was a terrible thing to do to kids, but they came. And they learned. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So we decided, oh, supposing we started a school. So that's was the beginning of it. And that was what we decided then we did. What are we going to call it? At that time we didn't know we were going to marry. So I said, look, call it the Campbell School, ‘cause that's a good name. No, that wouldn't be fair. So that's like a nor for Norma and bel for the “bell” part of Campbell. So that's how we came up with Norbel. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And that was the school that we started for kids who were falling through the cracks, who had learning disabilities, or who had some behavioral problems. And we wanted to give them a chance to succeed and to see what we could do.

Karen Blair: So, Norma, that started in 1980. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: 1980. So after I after I spent the two years at RICA, I went back to Towson University full time. Buzz immediately made me a full professor, and I taught- I shared time between the education department and the psych department because I really was a psychologist. Karen Blair: Uh huh. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But the education department wanted to keep me.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I taught graduate reading courses and I taught things like… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Oh, I can't even think of the names of the courses that I taught in education, but they all had to do with some psychological aspects, and that's what we did until eventually we got Norbel started and then and then the crunch began to hit the university system. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And out came… So I was now back at the university for about like five years, maybe, because this was, I started with them in 72 and this was now 80. It was more than that. I stayed till like 82 because when we decided we were going to open a school, we said, well, we have to make sure that we don't starve. Karen Blair: Right.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So we decided that it would be better that it was… I had the more flexible schedule. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Bob was the evaluator of the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, so he had a nine to five job. So we decided that he would become the head of Norbel School, and I would stay at Towson and teach graduate courses, because then I during the day, I could… Most of those are in the evening, so I could still be at Norbel during the day and teach in the evening. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And that's how we decided who was going to be the head boss. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So then we did that. It was now about like 82, maybe, maybe even 83. And then out came this offer from Towson University that said, if anybody wanted to take a sabbatical,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and they could have a year free instead of six months free, if they promised not to come back, because they were trying to get rid of high paying professor, then they could to save a lot of money. So Bob and I said, oh, they didn't know I was thinking of leaving anyway, let me grab that opportunity. So I had a year where I had a full salary from Towson University. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But then, of course, I could never go back. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So that was how we ended up with Norbel School. Karen Blair: And this is remarkable. That two individuals, you had sort of your sense of what that school is going to be like, what your audience was, what kinds of children you wanted to serve. How did that all come to pass?

Karen Blair: Did you build a building, or did you… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Well, to start with, Billy had a very good friend, Jack Epstein. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And Jack Epstein was the head of the of the Jewish School of Education at Oheb Shalom Temple. So he took us over there and he vouched for me and he got the temple to offer us one classroom, because we only had, like, maybe seven kids to start. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so he talked them into letting us just go there, just out of the goodness of their heart, which they did. And we didn't know how long we'd be there or whether we'd even succeed. So they gave us one classroom and all we had to do at the end of Friday, we had to put the room back ready to be a Sunday school.

Karen Blair: I see. Yes, yes. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: For Saturdays and Sundays. And then on Monday we had to put it all back again to be Norbel. So the first year we had seven kids, but the second year we had, I think like 18 kids. By the third year, we had fifty kids. So meanwhile we were using more and more of their classes. Meantime, they were still being so generous, and they weren't charging us, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: so that we were surviving, and Bob and I didn't take very much money, but I was still teaching at Towson. So we knew that we could eat a little more than peanut butter and crackers, but not much. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But that's how we survived. And then we began paying them rent. The more classes we got up to, eventually we got up to over 100 kids. Well, oh, yeah, we needed every one of their classrooms. So it was a big deal for them to give us that much space. And we ended up at in the beginning, just paying them a little bit of money.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And we stayed 20 years. We were like the man who came to dinner. We were always looking for where we could move, but we could never better the financial conditions because they were so kind to us. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: By the time we left there, we were paying them $100,000 a year for the rental, but we still didn't pay for any of the in kind services, so we could afford that. And we were doing very well at that time, but they wanted, they wanted to claim back their territory, their wonderful rabbi was retiring, Karen Blair: Uh-huh. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: who loved us very, very much and I loved him. He was wonderful. And so they wanted their building back, and we wanted to start high school, because we had children graduating from 8th grade very successfully,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: but what are we going to do with them? We couldn't just turn them loose. I mean, they needed some guidance. So we knew it would be better if we could have a high school. Karen Blair: So while you were there, you had children from first grade? As early as… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Even Pre-K, even kindergarten-age children. up through the 8th grade. They couldn't stay past eighth grade. We mostly got our biggest group, came like in the third grade because, you know why? Could you guess why? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Because that's when they began to realize that all of this waiting around for kids to develop developmentally to catch up wasn't working. And that's when they began asking the kids to do a lot of writing. To sit, I mean all… So that the tasks were changing, whereas in the primary grades the kids are allowed to roam around more, they didn't have to do too much writing.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I mean they talked a lot, but they didn't have to do too much formal writing, but by the 4th grade they were expected to, and so they had to sit still and they had to behave themselves and they were going to act like little adults, and to be, you know, and to watch what they said and did and they couldn’t fight. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And of course we had a lot of kids with ADD and a lot of ADHD and some of them were not only that, but also with learning disabilities. So they were falling through the cracks and the schools were not handling them well at all. And that's when we began getting enormous referrals to come to us. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And meanwhile, we had something- Two things going that were wonderful. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Number one, we had individualized instruction, so we had no more than 12 children to a class, and with a master’s level. And I was still stealing all the best graduates

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: out of the reading program from Towson University and hiring them to come to Norvell. And so we had great teachers with masters levels. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And we immediately hired an aide so that there were two adults in the classroom for 12 children. And in addition to that, we had an art teacher and a music teacher and a librarian. We had and a gym teacher. We had all of these things. So we were very, very well staffed, but most importantly, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: they had to individualize for the three Rs. Reading, writing and arithmetic. Now, for science and for geography and those kinds of things, naturally, we wanted them to do group work. But for those three skills, reading, writing, and arithmetic, that was to be individualized. And they didn't even have to do it at the same time together. So, and not only that, but they weren't even the same age. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: We grouped them, like, within two or three years, so we might have a child

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: who ordinarily would be in the 4th grade working on reading at a primer level, sitting next to somebody who was maybe a year or two younger or older, who is doing math, because it didn't matter. They're all doing their own thing. And the teacher was preparing all the materials for these kids every day. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And then in addition to that, of course, we were behaviorists, and when they came to us, they were very discouraged. So some of them were acting out because, that was to be expected, because they came from classrooms and public schools where they were enemy number one, and the teachers didn't like them and they made trouble. And they were really trying to tell people in a non verbal way, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I don't like myself. I'm not succeeding, and I'm going to make trouble for everybody. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So our rule was we'll take anybody to start with. If they turn out to be really sociopathic or so emotionally disturbed, we won't keep them. But we've discovered that at least 60% of them will turn around if you give them ideals. So anybody could come to start with.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And of course, we were heavy on rewards, so I mean every move they made, every little thing they tried, they would get rewarded heavily. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: On the other hand, they paid for practically the air that they breathed, so everything was, uh, was in and out, in and out. You earned for this. Oops. Oops. You made a mistake. No teacher was allowed to criticize the child, but she could say to him, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Oh, so sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. Please forgive me, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: but I have to take a couple of chips away from you, or a couple of your chips or your points. The older kids had points and the little ones had chips. And she said, but you can get them back, you can earn them back, it’s no big deal. Everybody makes mistakes.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So of course, me, as a psychologist, I was interested in not only, I mean Bob was graded at the three R's and breaking down the procedures into tiny steps with the teachers. But my job was to start an affective curriculum because we realized that for these children to succeed, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I mean, they had to feel good about themselves. They had to learn about themselves, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and my training is that in my PhD program was, I was a cognitive behavior therapist, so I didn't do things like put anybody on the couch. They weren't patients, they were clients, and cognitive behavior therapists think of themselves as teachers. So there I was, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and I mean, it all went together, and I realized that our idea was to take adults. I would have loved working with adults. I decided they were my favorites. And even if they were dealing with children, then I preferred to train the adults

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: in the home environment to maintain a home environment, instead of sending the child to therapy with the therapist once a week, no, let me work on changing your home environment so that you'll become the therapist for your child, and that you do things differently. So that's what we did. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And with Dawn Keller, who is now our teacher at Norbel School. She and I designed all kinds of activities for an affective curriculum, and we were actually teaching them cognitive strategies, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: which is to understand that your head talk is where the trouble comes from, so that if you're acting out with a behavior that people don't like, that comes from your emotions, which dictate, which makes you act out. Which is true of everybody now who's shooting people. They're angry. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So that it's their emotion that sends them off to do bad things. But what they don't know is they think they think it's some activating event that happens, like somebody treats them meanly.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: They think that's what caused their emotions. And what we had to teach them in therapy and with the children, and this was, I mean, right from age four and five at Norbel. We were teaching them, no, it's what you say inside your head. So what do you say to yourself? So somebody says something mean to you and then you say, that's terrible. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I can't stand it, or they shouldn't do that, or they should do this, or they shouldn't be mean, and that's not fair. And that is what triggers off the emotion, which then leads directly to a very bad consequence, some action. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And we got them to understand all of that and they had workshops. We spent as much time on the affective curriculum as we did on the ABC's, on the academics. And to this day, my sadness is that I'm retired as a professional and not any county, not Baltimore County, not Howard… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Nobody understands that the affective curriculum should be equally as important as the ABCs.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Because that is how you learn to go through life. I mean, that's how you decide. You know, you can get a good job by having A's in school, but you can't keep that job unless you're comfortable with yourself and other people know you and like you, that you know how to be a team member. The Ravens know that, you know all the rookies last year, they were talking about Norma Hauserman-Campbell: that when they arrived, they walked into the locker room and all over the walls were team effort, team effort, team effort. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: No you, no me, no I, none of that counts. That's bull. OK, it's team. It's team. You have to be a part of a team if you're gonna succeed. And that's true in life. So that was really my biggest desire in life. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: To say, if you're going to teach kids two things, got to teach them to read, even if you don't teach them anything else because they need that to go through life. Absolutely. They got to learn how to read and then they have to learn how to live with themselves and everybody else, and to like themselves.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And while we were doing Norbel school, I started a parent group and from it I ended up publishing this book called Growing Up Good. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And there's a couple of things, if I could, I'd like to read to you from it. I have to put my glasses on. First of all, there's a little story I'll tell you. Are we OK for time? Karen Blair: Take as much time as you'd like. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: OK. Well then I'm going to tell you about this person, or now I'm calling her Jan, but that wasn't her real name. She was one of my clients, and she had been… For a while there I was. I was consulting at Shepherd Pratt.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And she'd been hospitalized there seven times. She was very bright. She actually had a master’s degree in psychology. But I met her while I was there, and she ran away, which she wasn’t supposed to do. And where’d she run? Well, not too far. She ran to my house, because I was right near Shepherd Pratt, knocked on the door, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and said, I've run away, and the therapist, the psychiatrist there, you know, wants to have an affair with me. And I can't stay there. And will you help me? And can I hide from them? And will you protect me? And will you… And can I work with you? Because I liked you when I met you. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I thought, oh my goodness. Well, to make a long story short, that's what we did. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And I worked with her for a couple of years. But I said to her one day..

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: She was difficult, and I realized that the mother and father had been given a lot of psychobabble from social workers, and a bunch of… So they were accidentally reinforcing all this bad behavior. They were keeping her dependent on them, which she resented, but at the same time, she didn't know how to take care of herself. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: It was a mess. So I said to her, I'll work with you, Jan, under two conditions. Number one, you're going to bring your mother and father in. And if I think they're sensible people, then they have got to agree to follow some rules that I'm going to make with you. She said OK, that's great. She brought them in. I loved them. I could see they were normal people. We fell in love with each other Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and they agreed that whatever program I set up, they were going to do. So after a little while, she came in one day and I said in exasperation to her, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I can't believe this. You have a masters degree in psychology, but look, your life is a mess, Jan. And I said, you don't seem to know anything about the rules of the world.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: How the world works. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And she said, the rules of the world? What are the rules of the world? And I said the rules of the world, well, I just invented that, that's why you haven't heard about it, that's my expression. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: But before you come back next week, I'm going to have the rules of the world ready for you. And those are the rules that you and your family are going to live by. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And if in order for me to continue with you, you’ve got to agree that this is what we're going to do. So this is what happened by the time she came back the next week, I said I'm ready for you. And I have to tell you that was, you know, that was maybe…

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Well, that was almost 30 years ago. And they haven't changed. I've added a little bit, but for the most part they still hold up, the same 12. Here they are. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #1, The world is not always fair. To insist that it be fair leads to anger, frustration, depression, or self pity. #2, Everybody has a boss sometimes. No one can write all his own rules. To be bossed need not be equated with feeling inferior or humiliated. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #3, Living involves hassle every single day. One is never in La-La Land for more than a short visit. One problem solved shortly gives rise to another, and so it goes and always will. Accept this fact and move on to solve the next one. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #4, True pride is self respect and must be earned, not gifted. True pride results only from strong emotional muscle. Pride in one's efforts, intentions, and guts, no matter the outcome.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #5, You can stand awful long enough to make a good plan. no one likes frustration, discomfort, fear, or pain. But one can stand it for a short while until the plan can be made. Staying logical is the solution. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #6, You can do hard things. You're not a popsicle or a noodle. Popsicles melt and noodles collapse. Stay strong and don't give up. I use that with all my clients and one time one came back after a long time, he said, called me up and said I carry that with you every time something gets tough, I'd say, I'm not a popsicle or a noodle. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: He says but I think I need you to yell at me a couple of more times. So let me come back for a short while. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #7, What you do matters, but you are not what you do. Behaviors can be rated and can be altered, but human worth always remains intact.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #8, Everybody goofs a lot. No one is perfect. It is human nature to make mistakes. Learn to laugh at yourself and not be so self critical. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #9, Nobody is entitled to anything, only infants are granted entitlement to pleasure, comfort, and an easy road. But it's short lived. Soon, pleasures and respect must be earned. In fact, the child benefits from some frustration and required efforts, or he will not develop self-reliance. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #10 being loved is free only for babies. After that one had better give to get. #11, You are not a puppet. One has the power to choose how to think, how to feel, and how to act. One is responsible for his own actions. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: #12, Finally, staying happy involves effort and action. Doing nothing doesn't work for very long, so you have to keep going and growing. And those are my 12 rules of the world.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And Norbel School has them this size in every classroom, every classroom, and every time an incident would occur, you know, just spontaneously, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: then the teacher would say, wait a minute, wait a minute. That sounds like we're dealing with like, everybody has a boss sometimes, you know, let's think this through. What just happened? And as a matter of fact, when I introduce that to the kids, they would say to me that's not true. That's not true. Dr. Hauserman, Dr. Campbell, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and Doctor Norm is what they called me. That's not true because you're the boss. You don't have a boss. I said, oh, are you wrong! Norma Hauserman-Campbell: You don’t realize that every one of your parents is my boss. Because if I don't keep them happy, and if they're not satisfied with what I do with you and succeed,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: you're gone, and I lose you. I said, so, everybody has a boss. So those are my rules of the world. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Now let's see… Do we have more questions? Because towards the end I want to tell you what I did with these parents. Karen Blair: Well, one of the things we were talking about, your visitor who came and you spent some time with her. Was that Jan? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Oh, that's right, that's right. So I brought the parents. Oh, that was a wonderful story. I brought the parents in. OK, so I brought them in and they liked me immediately. And they said, absolutely anything I want them to do. And I said, OK, for one thing, there's a certain amount of money that you have to give her to live on,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: just temporarily, and don't- You may not give her one penny more for anything. She's got to live inside this budget. And that means she's going to have to go out and get a job. And even if she doesn't like it, that's too bad. She's got to do it anyway. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I said, and then from time to time, I'll bring you in, and when I want you to sit… They were wonderful. I could not have succeeded… We were so successful that this young woman, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: she ended up getting married. I went to the wedding. I met her children. She had two children of her own. She sent me Christmas cards for years. I think these kids are pretty well grown now. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: The parents cried at the wedding, you know, and hugged me and said, we never would have thought that this could have ever come from this child, and look how she's done. I said, well, she did it, she did it. And you did it. I only guided you. But you followed the law of the world, which is the consequences, and you know…

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Taking away, consequences are everything, and you have to reward good behavior. And you also have to, there has to be a cost to bad behavior. Otherwise you can't grow up. So she hadn't grown up. We just grew her up together. We did it as a team. And that's the story of her. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: OK, so now where do we go next? Karen Blair: Well, we're still talking a little bit about Norbel, and Norbel closed at a certain point, but it was… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: After 30 years.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: It lasted 30 years, and it only closed, not from not doing a good job, but because financially it got so expensive that with the economy that… We had a lot of trouble two different times. We survived one, once we left the temple and we got our own place, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: it was a very large building given to us, really, virtually free, by Howard County, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: but it needed a tremendous amount of renovation. It did enable us to start a high school, which we did. High school programs are very expensive. And then and then when the second crash came and in 2008, I think it was, it just got impossible, and people couldn't afford to pay the tuition. Karen Blair: I see.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so little by little, we had to let it go, because we owed too much money to the banks. But it was a very wonderful, wonderful success. And what I wanted to tell you was that in this book, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I worked every Wednesday- The way I wrote this book was I had this parent program every Wednesday, and I would write a chapter, and I would read it to them and they would give me feedback and they'd laugh. And I wanted it to be fun loving because you see, they already came feeling so unhappy about their children. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And, you know, and then sometimes they weren't too good at the children themselves, because they didn't know what to do. They had a child with a disability or child who was acting out, bad behavior. And they made mistakes. And so I wanted them to not be discouraged and to stay positive. And so I tried to use all the best behavioral things that I could with them. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So we made it lots of fun and they brought cookies, and we had cookies and coffee every week. And I began to write the book, and then I'd say, well, how does this sound to you? And they'd laugh, and they had to laugh in order for me to know that I was on the right track. They had to. They had to love it.

Karen Blair: Uh huh. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So this is how this book got written, and I'm going to just tell you what the what the chapters were, and then I want to just read the very last paragraph if I could. Karen Blair: Sure. And the title of the book is... Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Growing Up Good.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Chapter A, all about those angels, some very important knowledge about the basic nature of your angels, Alex, Ashley and Andy. Remember the old adage, to be forewarned is to be forearmed. Chapter B, babies know their business. Believe it. Beginning with the basics, meet the ains. And I invented ains. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Explain, train, remain, and refrain. Those are all the guidelines and if you follow those everything works out great. So that's what's in the book. OK, Chapter C, common sense considerations. Forget the psychobabble. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Remember instead grandma's rule. Eat your peas to get your pie, and watch out for those parent poison pills. Things that parents do accidentally that ends up being very hurtful. Chapter D, down with democracy, many choices to offer children most of the time, but not always. Understand a child's limitation for choosing. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So we would say to the child you can have plan A or you can have Plan B. You could choose, but you can't choose plan C. No plan C. Chapter E. This is my favorite.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: The big E, entitlement, Your Royal I-ness. How to preempt this dreadful developmental disorder before it becomes a chronic condition. And if you needed to, if you have already a Royal I-ness living in your house, then I had an addendum at the end. How to declare war on entrenched entitlement, which is a tough program. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Chapter F called fuzzy feelings. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Find them, face them, and fix them. And those were the principles of cognitive behavior therapy. And here we were teaching it all these years to these children. They were getting it, so they were already understood. That, oh, what I say to myself, I have to change my head talk. I have to change my beliefs. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I have to look at it and tell me, and decide, is that distorted? Is that realistic? And if so, what could I say differently? How? What could I do differently? We were teaching all that stuff to these kids at Norbel school.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Chapter H, Happiness. Happiness is a healthy sense of yourself with humor, and also learning the rational rules of the world. So those were the chapters. And it took me a couple of years to write this book. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And every winter I'd go down to Florida and write the book, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and Bob would just come down for vacations, and so that I would be free to do what I needed to do, and I wanted to make sure that I read you the very last thing here. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And at the very end of the book, I said, perhaps this book can best end how it began, by restating from my introduction, because I put it in the beginning, to me, growing up good, what does it mean to me? Growing up good means a child grows gradually and steadily in his ability to own responsibility for himself.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: How he thinks, how he feels, and how he acts. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: An adult person who has grown up good understands that he is not perfect and that no one else is either, so he doesn't take himself too seriously and he can laugh at the absurdities of our humanness. That makes him an understanding, forgiving and loving person. He pursues his wants in life with gusto, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: without collapse when he runs into those inevitable hassles, and when they occur, he can discipline his disappointments and move on reasonably. That makes him the captain of his emotional ship, not its victim. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: A child who has grown up good feels happy in a contented, peaceful way most of the time, and he has developed a set of values which reasonable people admire. You will like your child, others will like him, and most important he will like himself. And what else would you really want for your child?

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So that is basically what this book is all about, and you can see that I never separated all my psychology from being a teacher. Karen Blair: No, not at all. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: It just absolutely goes hand in hand, and that's where I am. Karen Blair: And what have you been doing since you left Norbel?

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Well, of course, I stayed on the board for all the years after and, you know, participated in all of their decision making, and tried to bring in money for it and all that kind of thing. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and then after that, because I didn't retire from Norvell, really, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: until I was 67, so that was already, you know, retirement age, if I wanted it to be. And then after that, I just did a private practice and I continue to evaluate children, and that was really fun. And I had something that I wanted to add about that too. I have a funny story about that. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: One day when I was still in fully doing it, and before I was retired, I got a telephone call from a father, from a man who said, I would like you to evaluate my child, but he was living somewhere in Pennsylvania. And I said, I always ask, well, how did you hear about me? You know, who referred you to me?

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: He said, nobody. He said I hate to tell you, but, he said, I work for an insurance company. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And he said, and my job is to read all these evaluations that come in from different psychologists and psychiatrists to decide whether or not we're going to pay for it. And he said, and one day one of yours came by and I read it, and I thought, gee, this one makes sense. He says, and then you, evidently, you evaluate a lot of children. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: He says that they began coming through, and every time one came with your name on it. I made a copy and pulled it aside because I had a young child, and I said, if I ever had a child that needed to be evaluated, I know where I'm coming, because it's practical. He says, it's down to earth and you could follow through on your suggestions. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: He says, you don't sound like a- You sound like a teacher, not a psychologist. And I said, well, that's true. I am both. I am both, and I often had said that I didn't think anybody should be a school psychologist either if they hadn't been a teacher because I wasn't, as a full time, you know, as a therapist, I was not a school psychologist,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: but I felt that to be a good school psychologist, you really should have taught children. So I was lucky because I not only had five children of my own, but I ran a summer camp every year, hundreds of children lived with us, you know, eating and sleeping in cabins. And I did their laundry and I cooked their pancakes, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: their blueberry pancakes for breakfast. And so, you know, you get to really know children. And then I taught them. And then I had deaf children and hard of hearing children and then emotionally disturbed children. And so by the time I was done, I really felt like I could do a good job in my evaluation. So I sort of had a leg up on everybody else. And I was lucky that way. Karen Blair: And so did you evaluate his child? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Oh, absolutely I did. Oh of course I did. And he was very pleased with the results.

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I continue to do that a little bit, but then of course you have to stay up to date with that, all those… All new materials come in, and I decided I had enough. They’re a lot of work to write up. I agonize over trying to do a good job. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: So I just kept up with a little bit of private work, which I still do. I keep my license. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Even though I'm 83, almost 84, but I still am licensed because whereas I don't take new people, but I have, I have old families who bring me their children, or who just want to come back for shot in the arms, you know… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: They all become my friends, to tell you the truth, I violated one of the code of ethics of psychology, and I hope nobody reads this and hears this, and that is cause they always said, you know, don't have a personal relationship with your clients. And I said, what are you talking about? I have a personal relationship with every client I've ever served. They all become my lifelong friends. That's who all my friends are,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: all my former- And when Bob died, when Bob died, it was amazing the number of people who came. I followed the Jewish tradition, which I have come to really like, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: which is sort of, sitting shiva they call it, and everybody comes to your house for several nights to sort of… They don't just come once and then disappear they come… And my living room was filled with all my former clients and they would say, oh, she saved my life, and another one said yeah, but this is what she did. And oh, this is, you know, there's nobody that we would want to be here for other more. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And now that came from having, only comes from a personal- I insist that most of my people got well because of a personal relationship more than my style of therapy. I honestly believe that. I think that's everything. Karen Blair: Norma, what have we forgotten? That was really essential?

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I don’t think anything. Did you look at your questions that- We covered all the questions that you have? Karen Blair: I think, indeed. Karen Blair: Well, it's your opportunity. It's your story. So this is the… That really hangs with you. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Well, I think I've talked really maybe enough, and I tried to work in everything that I thought was really relevant. Mostly I wanted you to know that even though I'm a psychologist, I'm still a teacher, and that I felt that the two most important things were making sure the child learned how to read,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and then secondly, even equally if not more important, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: that he understood himself, that he understood what goes into the making of his behavior, and that he's in charge of himself, and that he thinks well of himself, and that he likes himself and therefore likes other people, and understands the rules of the world. Karen Blair: Norma, that's a wonderful place for me to ask the question that we ask everybody we interview, and that's, Karen Blair: what kind of wisdom would you share, having been a teacher and a psychologist, with individuals who are thinking about a career as a teacher?

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: I would say this. Number one, you have to really love children, because you're certainly not doing it for the money, right? And I mean, I guess people could say, well, they like the hours, but you know, that's not… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: That's crazy, because most good teachers spend hundreds of hours extra. So it's not the money and it's not the working conditions. So you have to love children, and you have to love the idea of imparting knowledge, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: and of getting them to learn to want knowledge, because you will want them, you'd want them to know that learning goes on forever, and therefore that you want to instill in them a love of learning and knowledge of themselves. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Those are the things that I would want them as teachers, so that if they became a teacher, I would want them to love that to being a teacher, loving to work with children, loving to not only impart knowledge,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: but wanting the child to learn how to do that for himself. And then, and to care about the affective side of a child, so that as they go out, they're going to buck a system. And even today, even today, they're all into the three R's, you know, and the academics and they're not… Norma Hauserman-Campbell: They're beginning. There'll be a small beginning. They're trying to do a little bit about bullying, but you see, I would say to the teachers, I would hope that you would say that even if you're in kindergarten and if you're reading a story, Norma Hauserman-Campbell: instead of just reading the story and saying what happened and what was the sequence you say to them, how do you think Margie, the character, what do you think Margie was feeling? Well, if Margie was feeling that, what had she been saying inside her head in order for her to have that feeling? OK, well, what might she have thought differently? Norma Hauserman-Campbell: And so on, or if that person in this story is being mean to someone else, how do you think that would make you feel if it happened to you? And would we want to do that to somebody else? So you see, there's plenty of room,

Norma Hauserman-Campbell: even using the curriculum the way it is, to begin to dig into the affective curriculum, and that's what I would hope, that I would encourage and beg teachers to pay attention to that part. That's my advice. Karen Blair: Thank you. This has been a wonderful interview. Norma Hauserman-Campbell: Thank you. Thank you. I enjoyed it as much as you did, Karen. Karen Blair: Thanks.