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OK, we're recording. OK, so this is an interview with Nick Mueller conducted by Taylor Trotta on November 9th, 2023. So, Nick, when did you come to Towson?

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How long did you stay? I started fall 2016, graduated May 2020. OK cool. So you've been out of school for a couple of years now.

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OK, So what made you to 1st decide to come to Towson? It was not my first choice. I applied to a bunch of art schools. My original like major was photography and so I ended up

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starting at Towson in the photography department. Then I moved to design studies and then added woman and gender studies on, and then LGBT studies as a minor as well. And so I think predominantly what interested me was the

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option for the woman and gender studies program. I was think my original thought was considering it as a minor and that wasn't something that was like feasible in all the other schools I applied to because they were art schools.

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So that was a leaning factor. But also, I had tuition remission because my mom works there. So that was a big, big factor.

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Nice. What? Well, what was your interest? I mean, kind of like what you just discussed.

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What was your interest in the Women's Studies and gender Studies program at Towson? Or what's your relationship to it now? You're.

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I mean, I'm understanding that you're a graduate of the major. Yeah. I mean, I was in the, what was it, health, sexuality and I think gender like concentration.

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So most of my classes were kind of focusing more on there, not that we had a ton of options available to us for classes, but current relationship, I don't really have one. I think I'll, I'll put this on the record, the Towson

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administration doesn't love me, OK. I've given them some some beef when it comes to their inclusion policies. So I don't really have a current relation to Towson, but I

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definitely, I thought about the Master's program before I applied to my other programs. OK, so then how, how did your, how did your educational experiences and life experience lead you to the women in gender

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studies major if, I mean, if you gave them a hard time about the inclusion, like what led you into it? Yeah, honestly, I think 'cause when I started in freshman year, I that summer had interviewed to do to be a part of the Sexual

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assault Peer Educators, which I think has been dissolved now or switched to something else. But so I did like sexual assault prevention education and some sexual education and that kind of, like led into woman and

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gender studies department. I kind of personally figured that it would be interesting for me to be in that since it was already something I was interested in.

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And I'm not one to like pick a major just because I'm gonna make money in it. So it was because it was interesting. Mainly.

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I I can, I can attest to that. I understand. I understand. OK, well, I mean, if you didn't really see like like a, like a

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life after gender studies, how and who did you find support in when, when you wanted to, when you wanted to go to that major, Like who supported you? What supported you?

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I mean, at the time, my mom, I remember like sitting in her office on campus, like switching my majors over pretty early in like the semester of my freshman year. I'm trying to think, I don't think that there was like

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anything specific that was like advertising to join the women in gender studies department. But it was definitely an like under acknowledged department that I was intrigued by And I was just kind of intrigued of

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like the options that could come out of that. Like once I graduated. Yeah, I understand. I think like, right now there's only like maybe eight other

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people with women in gender studies like their major alongside me. So yeah, you're absolutely right. There's not.

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It's not that popular. A lot of people added in as minors just to just to you know kind of get the the street cred. All right.

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Well did did and on the opposite end did like anybody oppose your decision to change your major to women in gender studies? Honestly I think my like family at the time who I guess I considered their opinion more about it.

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I I think they were ultimately supportive of it because, I mean, I was already in like the art field, which if we're thinking future wise, that's not like a big money field. So I think they were happy to see me have like a backup or

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like something else that I could do that was in a completely different realm. Yeah, that was like a little bit more, like, scholarly. Yeah.

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OK, I got, I got it. Well, this is a really big question I'm about to ask you, 'cause I know it's like a, I don't know, it's a controversial word or term sometimes, but do you identify as a feminist?

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And if you do, what can you describe, like, your path to claiming being a feminist? Yeah, that's interestingly enough. I was just writing a paper, 'cause I'm in grad school right

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now, which included an article about, like, feminist theory, which was bringing me back. And I don't identify with that word as much as I definitely used to.

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I mean, when I was in undergrad, Trump was elected my freshman year. And so, like, feminist was a really big, like, thing. We were putting it on like our protesting signs.

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And so, like, I think that was a major contributing factor. I definitely evolved in how I identified as a feminist. And I remember definitely, like towards the end of my time at Towson, like, I would specify that I was an intersectional

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feminist because I didn't want to get it twisted with other kinds of like feminism, especially like transit exclusionary feminism, which people call radical feminism, which that's not what it is.

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But yeah, I but I don't think I would necessarily use that as a first thing to like label myself. I think I would what would you label yourself? Would you would you give even give yourself a label besides

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activist? I just think the feminist part of it is like of my activism isn't at the forefront. I think like trans rights, queer rights, like things like that

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are more at the forefront and I think can be better encompassed by other like ideas like queer theory is very different than like feminist theory. So I think in that regard, I wouldn't be like writing on my

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resume or whatever that I'm a feminist or in my like bio somewhere. I feel like I would substitute other words that are maybe a little more direct about things that I like focus on, OK, that's

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that's like super, that's super interesting. I wonder if I'll 'cause I mean, I feel like some of the things that you listed are are feminist issues in in, in my opinion. So I I'll, I'm gonna see how my point of view transforms 'cause

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I'm sure it will. It already has. So I mean, I think the political climate has a lot to do with it too.

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So much with like, where I stand on like using feminist as like my describing factor. I also think it can possibly, in other people's eyes, like misconstrue my gender identity.

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And I think that's something I consider subconsciously more. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right.

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Well, you were talking about how you would have previously considered yourself an *********** intersectional feminist. How?

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How did your association with the program shape that consciousness? I mean, I definitely didn't know what intersectional was before the program.

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It was not a word that I had come across on my own time. Granted, like this was pre 2016 and things were a little different. Not that different, but I I think it was really the femme

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theory class that I took where I learned like the literal history of like different waves of feminism where I I kind of found that describing myself as an intersectional feminist. I've struggled with it now because I feel like feminism

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should just be like it is intersectional and like identifying it as such, especially as like a white person, can be a little weird. So I don't know.

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I but I definitely like was not aware of the term intersectionality and I remember it being like a light bulb when I, like, first learned about it in my gender study classes. That's that's awesome though, 'cause I mean it, obviously it

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got the ball rolling for some other things. Like that was like a pivotal moment in your life. So that's super interesting. OK, well, do you?

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OK, so the actually the class that I'm doing this interview for is my femme theory class. So here's a femme theory question. What feminist thinkers have been in most influential in your in

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your in different points in your life? Like, who sparked your interest and feminism? And then who are you on, like, right now? And it doesn't even need to be like a feminist.

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You know what I mean? Maybe just like a activist of some sort. Yeah, I mean intersectionality like Kimberly Crenshaw. I mean the term automatically.

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I mean, I think like Angela Davis has a lot of impactful things which I don't necessarily know. Angela Davis would identify as a feminist at this point. It might be a different term, but I'm trying to like pull

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names. I mean, I I definitely at like this point am following and like listening more to people who are specializing in things outside of just gender, a name that comes to mind.

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I mean, Adrian Marie Brown was really influential in how I thought about like, pleasure activism. That book changed my life. I mean, people like Caleb Luna, who does a lot of disability

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activism, and I mean people like Sabrina Strings, who does a lot about like the racist history of that phobia. Things like that, I think is where I'm more so looking at. Oh, and I can't forget Deshawn Harrison, also a great,

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fascinating person. But these are also like names that I came into awareness to like after I graduated, except for like Angela Davis and like Kim Kimberly Crenshaw.

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And I was introduced to Adrian Marie Brown my senior year. OK, so we already spoke on like what like schools of like feminists thought that you're like really really enjoying. I'm saying feminist because I don't you're you're not

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considering it feminist. You're thinking bigger picture. But what, what how has how have you found these like schools like useful in different points in your life?

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I mean, I I definitely think that like, knowing the history of like the feminist movement and the waves and how they interacted with like gay and lesbian movements and the like trans movements, disability rights movements, Like they all

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are very interconnected. And I think knowing like how we got to where we are was very is one of the main things that I think is the most important regarding like, the schools of thought.

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Yeah, the critical parts of them. You gotta think about how how did we get here and how can we change it? Yeah.

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Yeah, I I would agree with that. Nice. OK. So did your involvement with, like, the gender studies program

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influence you to have any, like, outside involvement activism? Yeah, I mean, for sure. I once I was like starting women and gender studies. I think one of my first protests that I went to was God.

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I can't remember what it's called now, but it was like a walk against, like rape culture. So, and I mean, it was definitely influential and like all 2016 when Trump got elected and a lot of the main organizers

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on campus were from the World and gender studies department. Can you repeat the question? I think it's, it scares my mind again. No, it's just like how did it, how did it influence you to have

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like outside activism, Like like you know, you were talking about. Yeah, yeah, I mean I it definitely opened my eyes of like what I could do with that kind of work.

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It did like lead me into non profit fields. Like I worked at a domestic violence shelter while I was in school there and did an internship there too. So like, where which one?

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At House of Ruth? You did at House of Ruth. OK, nice. Yeah.

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I'm sorry. I'm gonna veer from the script a little bit. How was that experience? You can be honest with me.

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I mean, I just have a lot of opinions on, like, so do I on just nonprofits in general. I quickly after grad graduating experience my first round of burnout from a nonprofit.

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So bride wide awakening of like what that looks like. But House of Ruth itself is pretty well funded at the time and it was interesting though, because sorry, my brain's going everywhere.

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It was also one of the only gender inclusive shelters like in the area. So that was a big thing that was important that, you know, they specialized in really.

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But I was also there like when COVID hit. So that was a very interesting experience to see. Yeah. Wow.

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Wow. That is OK We'll we'll, we'll talk more later. OK. So what courses in the Gender and Women's Studies program did

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you find the most interesting and why? Definitely one I'll still talk about to this day is the Christian Sexual Ethics class. Really.

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Yeah. Fascinating. Oh my gosh. OK, 'cause I was considering taking that.

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OK, Truly, one of the best classes I took I had. Who did I have? It wasn't Giss and Danner. I can, like, picture her in my brain.

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She wrote one of my letters of recommendation. Oh, wow. Yeah. But no, that class was great.

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I it was one of the first times where I really understood history and how it like tracks and just the discussions were fascinating, especially someone who was raised Catholic. I, like, opened my eyes to how much historically people hate

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Catholics. Yeah. Yep. I was raised Catholic as well.

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Yeah. So I mean, yeah, that's why I was kind of avoiding it. But I mean, like, it seems like, I know it was really interesting.

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OK, awesome. OK. How did other students and faculty in the program inspire you?

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Oh, I mean, it was such a, it's not such a small, like, group of people that there's only like so much that you can, I don't know, like connect to when you're there. I mean, one of my best friends I got out of that program and, you

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know, that program led me to my grad program. And I, you know some of the diversity of the classes that I was able to take and like the psych department fantastic. With Doctor Galupo liking that.

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Think that was a really important addition who's not there anymore. So sad. But yeah, I mean, I do know.

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I well, I guess one cool, specifically cool thing is I do have a friend who. I met within that program and and within some things I did did extending from that program who is currently like this getting

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to be a very well known, like black feminist thinker and like just did a like zoom like session with Angela Davis And like, so I I like you meet cool people 'cause you have similar like ideas and thought processes, which I think is

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what's honestly the most important. That's exciting. OK, I don't have, I don't have any connections yet, but they'll come.

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They're hard to come by, honestly. Like, I mean you said you only have like 8 people in your yeah, like who are they? My, my graduating year, my, like, seminar course, which is

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supposed to be all the seniors in the department. Half of us weren't even graduating then, and I think there was maybe eight of us. So yeah.

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All right. Did you find any trouble finding a job after graduation? What obstacles did you face, if there was any? Yeah.

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I mean also contextually, like, I graduated right when COVID hit. So I mean, I was already working in the field at that time in like senior year.

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So I I was able to like get a job after I left House of Ruth. And I think that my like degree was helpful in that one job which didn't pan out well but then I did it did very much like in my experience that I had while I was at Towson helped me

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get a job at a crisis phone center which I was working around pretty much only people who were in like their masters of social work programs. So I mean difficulty, not necessarily, but you're very

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much are hit in the face with what the reality of like non profit underpaid work looks like. So, yeah, well then what advice would you give for somebody who is leaving the program and going into a career and most of the

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options are nonprofits. Yeah, you know what I mean? I mean, part of me wants to say like, go to a grad program, which isn't like ideal.

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And I definitely wasn't going to do that when I graduated. I was against going to grad school. But then when I was in the field, I, like, realized that the only way I was really going to, like, develop and move up

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and make more money and do things that I want to do more is to have that graduate degree. And then what? What grad?

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What are you going to grad school for? We Can we mention it? Yeah. No.

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I'm in a dual program. It's a masters of social work and masters of education and human sexuality. So ultimately, it's a sex therapy program.

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Oh, wow. OK, That's awesome. Yes. Yes.

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Yeah. OK. Advice wise. Yeah.

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Please. I think I wish, like there was a class that like kind of introduced you to like setting boundaries within, like, professional fields.

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Because I think that's honestly like nonprofits aren't all bad. Some of them are very, like manipulative and capitalistic. However, if you are able to set like good boundaries for yourself and you know your mental health, I think that's

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the key to being able to do it long run, which is, I'm not the person necessarily to give that advice because I'm not currently working in the field. I'm in a whole different field right now.

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Well, what are you doing? I'm doing graphic design, so I'm using my other degree. OK, yeah, you're. Yeah.

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Well, yeah, you're you're satisfying another part of your soul right now. So I get it. OK, awesome.

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Well, what do you think would be done to attract more students to women's and gender studies program besides the class that would help us transition into the career? I just don't.

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I just don't remember seeing it like highly advertised, just overall and it was something I like stumbled on to rather than like heard about and then sought out. I don't like know like how they would necessarily do that.

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Maybe like outreach within like local high schools, especially since like Towson's such a, like local commuter school too. I just, I just don't think that the university also like the administration prioritizes that department.

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So I mean, a solution would be funding. Yeah, it's just like interesting in historical context, but yeah, but so let's let's reiterate why we need women in gender studies. What relevance do you see of women in gender studies in

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today's world? Honestly, I see the woman part of women in gender studies being phased out. I think it was maybe previously a little more alluring for

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people. I don't necessarily know how alluring it is for younger generations. So that's something that I'm, I think about like the the woman

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aspect of it being neutralized into gender studies. I don't know. I mean, I'd like to see like more inclusion of like, we're theories and stuff within that department.

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Yeah, I don't know. I think we're like a lot of like social contexts are changing industries now and especially like Gen. ZS getting older as someone who's at the very end of Gen.

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ZI think we're going to see a lot of changes in like the structure and like what people are asking. Like students are asking of the program. Yeah.

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Yeah yeah absolutely. I I mean I can they're they're they are getting like I don't know if you've looked, but they are getting like some more like like special topics type courses which are nice.

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Not saying that they're always available though depending on the if the teacher is teaching other classes or not. Yeah OK well very important question and a little cliche in my opinion but if you could do it all again would you Oh yeah.

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I mean, I wouldn't have, like gotten to like, I think the interest level that I have with like sex therapy and like sexual health and if I hadn't gone through that program, I mean, maybe I would have had another school.

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But, you know, I don't think it would have ended up at those other schools. So, OK, well, I am gonna press and record that is. That concludes our interview.

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But I want to ask you some questions on like, my own end, yeah.