Interview with Nancy Grasmick

All right, so, thank you so much for coming, Doctor Grasmick. It's great to have you here. Today's... Yeah, today's date is June 25th, 2024.

And my name is Catherine Geiger and I'm a student researcher, or student research assistant for the Unearthing TU Project, focusing primarily on the experiences of female students during the 1960s to the 1990s.

Before we get started, I'd like to give you the proper introduction. I know you served as a state superintendent of the top ranked Maryland public schools for 20 years, from 1991 until 2011,

serving 24 districts, which is amazing, and 1,424 schools and around 800,000 students. I know you began your career as a classroom teacher at the William S Baer School of the of the Deaf in Baltimore City

before serving as the Principal and Associate Superintendent in Baltimore County. And I know you also received your bachelor's degree from Towson University in elementary school education, as well as your

master's degree in Deaf education from Gallaudet University and your doctorate in commutative sciences from Johns Hopkins. So I think it's safe to say that it's an absolute honor to have

you here. Thank you. Thank you. I'm pleased to be here.

Good. Well, I guess we can just get on started with some of our questions. So my first question for you is why did you decide to go to the

Maryland State Teachers College at Towson? What made this institution stand out from other potential universities and what drew you to this program? It's a very interesting story because I had intended to go to

Smith College. I actually had a scholarship to Smith College, but during my approaching senior year of high school, I had a very, very bad reaction to penicillin, which I was not tested for.

And as a result, I had very severe blistering of my ears and impact on my ability to hear, which is how I became interested in the deaf. And I read a lot about the deaf.

I read about Helen Keller and her teacher, Anne Sullivan, and it really organized my thinking in terms of what direction I'd like to take professionally and decided that it was teaching, as opposed to what I had previously thought, was being a physician.

And so I was still being treated for the condition I had and I couldn't leave the state. So deciding that I wanted to be a teacher and coming to Towson University because I had to remain in Maryland was my

decision. And that was interesting because at that time there was no preparation for being a teacher of deaf students. And so during my matriculation at Towson, I decided that I

wanted to have a student teaching experience at the William S Baer School, which was the identified place in the whole metropolitan area for deaf students. And it was a long and difficult road to be able to get the

university to agree to that. But ultimately they did. And so that's why I came here and used the skills and knowledge I got at Towson to be able to then go on to Gallaudet

University, which is the premier college for the deaf in the United States. That's awesome. I didn't know that about your hearing, and I didn't know that.

That must have been a scary experience. It was very scary. I mean, being so young, I can't imagine. Well, going on to the next part of that question, what were your

initial impressions of Towson? Can you explain some of your everyday experiences on campus? I know when I was doing research, there were definitely a long list of dormitory regulations and different

aspects of student life that I found interesting. Yes. So it was very interesting for me because there were a cohort of people I knew who were also going to attend.

I was not going to be a residential student here. I was going to be a day student. I was very disappointed actually to be coming here. So I decided that, and also because I was receiving

treatment, so I decided that I would be a day student, but that I had a lot of friends who were in the dormitories and not consistent with the rules. If I wanted to stay, I often stayed with friends who had

rooms here. It was primarily populated, the university, at that time the college, by females, very few males, and it was very insular. I didn't feel there was an outreach.

I mean, it's so different today to come back. That it was very insular, it was very regimented, and there weren't a lot of internal or external opportunities to do things that were more social or athletic, et cetera.

It was a small, at that time, a very small college. So given that you were a day student and didn't live in a dorm, can you describe what it was like visiting the dorms, what they looked like to you?

How your, I mean, did your friends talk about how they experienced the different dorms on campus? I know most of the ones that were mentioned were Prettyman and Scarborough.

Yes, and so it was Prettyman that I spent most of my time with. And that was a new dorm at the time, so it was more attractive than the old ones. And, you know, there wasn't a lot of complaint about the rooms,

and there was all girls, no males. And so there was a fair amount of flexibility because it was all female, and the rooms were attractive and nice at that time.

But again, it was very, you had the feeling it was very insular. That's funny you say that. My brother is a freshman, or now a sophomore at Towson University, and he stayed in Prettyman, so.

Oh, yeah. So that'd be the reputation for Prettyman now is the old dorm. Yeah, it was new at the time, so that was the place to be.

Well, considering that you said that there were very few male students, did you notice that female students and male students had different standards and regulations in the common buildings?

I mean, I know you wouldn't have experienced it with the dormitories because the dorm that you would have been in was only female, but did you notice different rules being upheld and enforced?

I felt that there was much more latitude for the males than the females and there were particular latitudes if you played sports or were in one of, I think it was called Circle K organization, which was kind of a leadership organization for

males. But there was a lot of interaction even with the few males that existed. And I was part of that down in the old, you know, what today

would be the student union. But it was like one tiny spot where everyone gathered. They either played cards, ate lunch, interacted socially. Sometimes there were presentations.

But it was, again, this tiny microcosm of what we see today. So piggybacking off of that, one of my questions was what was student life like on campus? And from what I'm understanding, it was very insulated and there

wasn't too much to do. I know I was reading through the Towerlight and it talked about, let's see, I do have a note about it. It had a note about the student center.

And I know it said there was music, there was a place to get food, jukebox, piano, a place for friends to get together. Did you go there often? I did.

I did. And I had a lot of both male and female friends who, we gathered there. And it was probably the highlight of our social

experience at Towson. And it was, I mean, it was small, but we we sort of took it over. And so it was a place to really gather socially and I

participated in that. Did you feel that you, like, did you feel that you had a close group of friends or classmates that you felt supported, that you felt supported you with your academic career?

Did you have friends or classmates that you could study with? Were there study groups, different organizations that you can participate with to grow in your academics?

Well, I felt I was a very good student. I'd been to an all girls high school, a rigorous high school, and in many ways I felt it was fairly easy. And so, you know, I did spend some of my time socializing and

we did have a group where we would work together, primarily in this regard females, we would work together on projects, et cetera. So that was always reinforcing and good to do.

So anyway, yes, I did. And I probably didn't, you know, prepare as much as I would today or as I did subsequent to being at Towson when I went on to get a master's or a doctorate.

And I mean, it's very different. Would you say you had a lot of free time then? I saw, again, and the Tower Light papers have been a great resource for me.

But I saw that on the Towson Plaza was a very popular place to hang out for students off campus. Did you ever venture off campus? Oh, sure.

I would go up to, you know, where the Towson Circle is. And there were restaurants where groups of us would meet in the evening sometimes and be present there. So walking up York Road

was, you know, a regular activity. So yes, we did venture off campus. And we never knew, was that approved or not approved? It didn't matter to us.

We did it anyway. Were there certain student events or functions that you remember specifically? I know there were sweetheart dances and there were different

sporting events. Were there any that stick out to you or that were your favorite? Well, I was on the Queen's Court for the, you know, Queen's May Day or whatever it was called at the time.

So I was one of the persons... You had to be voted on that. So I was voted on that. And I thought that was... We had a big dance. I thought it was quite a highlight.

Oh, no, that sounds great. It sounds like a like a prom queen kind of. That does make sense. I know now we do the homecoming King and Queen at Tiger Fest.

So that's pretty cool. I also, I know - I'm sorry. I was just going to say the men were not voted on. It was only the women and then they invited a male.

Didn't have to be a student at Towson. Oh, really? Yeah, I mean the males, but for the females, yes. That's interesting.

I didn't know that. That's... I know there were also a lot of student government association organizations. Today

I know there's a ton. Were there some, back when you went to school? What were they like? Were there academic or social organizations, sororities, women's groups, women's intramurals?

I know one of my advisors, Ashley, mentioned that there was a married women's forum on campus as well. Were you involved in any of these? I didn't know about that, but there were some activities.

Limited, but because I was a day student it was harder for me to participate because a lot of the activities were after school hours and the ones that were most attractive to me were generally the social ones.

Well, getting back into more of the academic questions, what were your classes like and how were exams conducted and lectures conducted on a day-to-day basis? The classes were not huge and they were, in my experience,

always conducted by the professor who was assigned to that particular class. So it wasn't like you're going to have a grad student doing the class.

It was the professors. We all knew who they were because there wasn't a long line of professors and we, I mean, I thought they were quite good and were dedicated to the students.

So from that perspective, I thought it was, I couldn't be critical of any of the professors because I thought they were quite good and seemed qualified for the job. We had, you know, exams and we had requirements for papers and

you know, we had study halls, et cetera. So there was a a good beginning of an outline of, you know, how you pursue academic coursework. I didn't think, frankly, I thought as I matriculated to a

higher level, meaning in the elementary education arena, I really felt that it was too easy until I went into classes to do student teaching in various schools, and that I thought was rigorous, but I felt prepared to do it.

So I the preparation was good. Good. Were there any female professors at the time or were there any women's studies or history discussed in any capacity?

I was really curious about this because I know the women's studies program at Towson wasn't, and the Women's center weren't instituted until 1972. Correct. We had none of that.

We did have female professors. We had that in English, particularly in English. Several years I had female professors in English, mostly

science and math were men. That just happened to be what I experienced. And then when I got into the area of the really elementary education, there were female teachers, professors, and they

were good. So there was a mix. But there was nothing ever spoken about women's leadership, not at all, even though the, I think what would be called the

Provost today was a female. And she was very demanding. And when I wanted to do my student teaching at the William S Baer school, she told me no.

And I refused to accept no as an answer. And finally, I probably drove her crazy, but I persisted and she finally let me go there, as the first student teacher who had that experience.

How was that experience for you? It was wonderful. I had a mentor teacher who was just amazing, and I had so much to learn because nothing here prepared me to work with deaf

students. And so my mentor teacher there was the person I learned so much about deafness, managing. At that time we were not allowed to use sign language in the

school in Baltimore, and so you had to teach deaf children how to speak, and that is an art unto itself and very difficult. I can only imagine. And it was through the the work of my mentor teachers at the

William S Baer School that I really learned. It wasn't through the university at that time. Did you have any part in creating the Deaf Studies program at Towson?

I was always an advocate for it everywhere I spoke or talked about it. And then when I got a position at the William S Baer School, I talked about why there should be a program like this, why people

should be prepared at the university level and not just the experience of being in a classroom of deaf children. So yes, I was such an advocate for that. I don't know if it impacted it, but it certainly became known

about, you know, my background, what I wanted to do, why I wasn't fully prepared through Towson University. But I don't know when that program actually emerged. You said in the 70s.

I didn't find a date on that. I knew it was, I believe it was... The women's studies program was in the 70s. I didn't see anything for the deaf studies program.

I'm assuming that was later in the 80s. Well, and I also think as the public schools began to embrace taking children into the public schools as opposed to sending them to the Maryland School for the Deaf, that there was a

greater need and it made sense to begin to initiate some of these programs. Well, did you feel that you had good relationships with your professors, the administration faculty?

Did you feel as if there was a feeling of support for female students and your specific desires? I know you said the Provost kind of pushed back on you wanting to go to... It was the William Baer Institute School.

Did you feel like you had support? I didn't from that Provost. I did not feel supported. But I was very, you know, tenacious about it.

So finally she gave way to allowing me to do it. But I also felt that, I mean, there was certainly an embracing of female students because that represented the majority population.

So I mean, I felt, the one thing I didn't feel was that there was a sense of homogenizing people in the classes and people who may have needed more support or more direction.

I didn't feel there was much differentiation. It was, this is the class, this is what the class is doing, and that's it. You sink or swim.

So I didn't feel there was the kind of differentiation and support, collateral support that you see today, that didn't exist. So you'd say no accommodations, like, if I'm a student with ADHD or dyslexia or some sort of other learning disability, it was just

this is the class, this is how you're going to take it, if you can't handle it, sorry. Or any academic weaknesses, depending upon what your preparation might have been to come here.

And I just didn't feel that was part of the scenario, you know, as it is today. So overall, would you feel or do you feel that the female students at the time had a voice?

I felt they had only because they were the majority. So, but also at that time, I think women were not as aggressive about that as they would be today. I mean, I was perceived as very aggressive even to want that

experience that I had, and not received well in making that request. So I felt that there was a sense of, you know, women don't have this aggressive behavior and no thought of

how do you as a woman fit into a projection of what you can do in this city, in this state, in this world, that those kinds of... It was still seeing women as unequal in my opinion. I definitely can say that it's gotten better for female

students like me, but I can definitely attest that there is always some of that still lingering. Oh, of course, that's, that's something Erin Moran, your executive director, talked to my women's group about.

And it was a very common topic. And all the speakers that I had, I know Allison McCartney was one of my speakers and Provost Perrault was as well. And everyone talked about feeling a sense of imposter

syndrome, that maybe I'm not supposed to be here. Maybe I shouldn't be asking for this. Is this too much, am I being too much?

It's funny that you say that because it's definitely still something that I know a lot of women experience today, for sure. Well, it was very prevalent.

You know, this is not acceptable for a female's behavior. And I have to tell you, and I'm a little reluctant to do this, but maybe you'll won't put it in.

But it's important for you to know when we came to Towson and we were going to participate, and maybe you've heard this in phys ed, you had to undress and be photographed. And I think that in subsequent years...

And we were just expected to do that. And they said, oh, they were looking at your posture. These were women who did it. And they had all these photographs of us nude.

And that was typical behavior that was allowed here. I can't see in any sense how that would be appropriate or necessary for a physical and in any... I can't even see that being really acceptable in the doctor's office.

And I lined up one after the other and we would say to each other, I don't know why they're doing this, but no one would speak out and no one drew attention. No adult drew attention to that practice.

And I don't know when it ended, but it was horrifying to look back on that. I can't even imagine. I mean, This is why we do these oral histories and we dig into

the past because the whole purpose of this project, it's to see how we have overcome diversity and adversity over the years and to hear stories from the past and see where we've come.

So that it, I mean, that's the whole point. And hearing that, it makes me very sad for you and the women who experienced that. I can't even imagine today if I was asked to strip down and

take a picture for school. I mean, I can't even imagine that. And we never knew what happened to those photographs. It just seems... That seems very odd and inappropriate.

I don't know when it stopped. And it may have been the motivation of one individual, but for the university not to know about it. But part of it is what you've spoken about.

And that was keeping women pretty silenced. I mean, going off of that, I'm assuming, it seems like you did have some positive experience, Towson. Were there any other negative ones?

I know you said that you had a close group of friends. You everyone was primarily female and but now going back on the negative experiences, especially as a woman, did you feel like there was a certain sense of sexism that the men

have to be photographed as well? I don't think so, no, but there were so few men, you know, and I don't think we, I personally did not bring it to their attention to ever ask, but I'm pretty sure it was a

whole different scenario for them. I read over the student handbooks over the years and when I read through them, I look at the women's regulations and it's like six pages and I look at the men's and it's about half a

page. And I found that comical because you're both a Towson student. It doesn't make sense why women would have more rules than men. And I know, I understand it's the time, but obviously there's a sense of

sexism there. The thing that excites me and why I wanted to come back here is because in leaving here and going on to other universities and knowing the excellence of the teacher preparation program

particularly, which was the biggest bulk of people matriculating through here, I know what the contributions were as these people became employed in school systems. From my subsequent experiences and the respect I had for the

preparation of teachers and then always thinking back to, well, it was my beginning, even though, you know, I went on to other universities. So, you know, these are, I'm pulling out some of the things

that I think we should take pride in the changes that have been made, and it's like a different place. And I can say that honestly because I'm here now after all those years.

So I can see it from today versus what it was like then. So do you feel that better sense of pride in being at Towson now than... I can assume leaving Towson after that, after some of those experiences that would have left, you know, a bad taste in

your mouth and you wouldn't want to return. But what made you want to return? And are you happy that you did? Yeah, I'm very happy that I did.

It was my understanding of the growth of the university now through the years because I was actually seeing it as I was assuming various roles in education, and to get teachers from Towson was the premier place.

And so I began, you know, I had a lot more respect looking at it that way and also being much more intimately knowledgeable about the changes that have been made here. And of course, I feel that way today.

And I think it's a very balanced university. Every university can improve, I believe, but I think there's a whole philosophy here of continuous improvement, that I saw it as much more static when I was here.

It was very static. Well, going on to, I had a question about, did you always know you wanted to work in education and you answered that previously saying no, you thought you wanted to be a

physician. Well, what have you learned over the years in education? Are there any main lessons that you've learned and carry with you?

Well, I came to grips with being an educator and I came to grips with it this way, that, and particularly when I was at Hopkins, that it's physicians who save lives, but it's teachers who build lives.

And that I wanted to be in the building program, so to speak. And so I really came to grips with the tremendous reward of being in education and seeing the success of the students in which you invest and wanted to be back here to do some creative

things. Like you just talked about Erin Moran and this Leadership Institute, which I've had an opportunity to build here, and working with both honors students, students in the top rung of their senior year in all of the high schools across

Baltimore County. So doing a lot of creative things, which I have been so supportive in doing both by Doctor Ginsberg and by the previous president.

So, you know, I'm really happy to be here. And when I thought about this Institute for Leadership, I mean, I could have gone to Hopkins. I could have gone to many other universities, but I really

wanted to be here at Towson because I'm proud of the progress Towson has made. I think it's been amazing. And when I offer some negative comments about the way it was

previously, it is from a perspective of where are we now, based on where were we then. I can definitely say that Towson has been extremely supportive of not just me personally, but a lot of friends that I have and a

lot of classmates. I know one thing I really admire and the reason I chose Towson University over the University of Maryland is the class size and the support from teachers and professors.

I can definitely say that they do make an effort to... Some definitely make an effort to know you personally and they love to see you grow. I know both the Mccartneys doctor Paul McCartney and

Allison McCartney have been so wonderful to me. They've been so wonderful and definitely two mentors and I didn't think I would get that at a bigger university. And I can say that women's leadership is definitely

something that's prevalent on campus. We have a bunch of different opportunities for us. And I just recently learned about your institute last winter.

And that's what inspired me to, you know, bring more women together and just talk about women's success stories and how they got to where they are. And it's been a really eye opening and wonderful experience

for sure. And I met Judy actually while I was serving tables in Annapolis and she was at... Yeah, she... I was serving her and her husband at a restaurant I work at.

And we got to talking and she goes, I work for the Doctor Nancy Grasmick Institute. I said really? I said I just had your executive director come talk.

Yeah. Small world. It's crazy. Are you at Severn?

The Severn? I no, I work at the Beacon Waterfront in Annapolis. So she's there all the time now. I see her frequently.

But yeah, she was very excited for me to get in contact with you. Well, she's a wonderful person. And I've had the honor of working with her

both when I was at the State Department of Education and then wanted her to be here with me. So, yeah, great people. And Allison, I was just, I can't tell you how

much I wanted her to get this, to become... Oh, isn't it fantastic? I just, we went out to dinner. We just celebrated. It was so wonderful.

Oh, she's very deserving. She had a great talk with us and hearing her story and how she got into teaching was just... She's like, I worked with this girl and you know, I helped her through it and she's

like, I still talk to that student to this day. And that's just... It's amazing how Towson connects people like that. Yes.

So I'm very proud of Towson because there's, you know, universities that will go unnamed that are stagnant, in my opinion, very stagnant. That is not Towson.

And so when you think back, because I'm probably one of the oldest persons who matriculated through here and still can talk about it, you know, when you think about the trajectory, it's wonderful.

And that's why I wanted to, you know, was happy to be back here. Yeah, it's amazing to have you back. It's great to have you here. It's definitely in honor to be able to interview you and hear

about your life's journey and how Towson has been such, I guess a factor in where you are today. Much... It has on so many levels. And you know, I am also at Kennedy Krieger Institute and I

pull on a lot of things and try to make connections like with the health professions here, providing opportunities. They are at Kennedy Krieger because there's nothing like getting your hands dirty by actually seeing what therapists

do and the circumstances of children and how they can progress with the right treatment. So it all blends together for me and I just love it. So I am happy and proud of Towson because as I say, I think

there are a lot of stagnant universities. When I saw that you were part of Kennedy Krieger, I thought that was fun because I was a child who had to go to Kennedy Krieger quite a bit.

I was, yes, I had a severe vitamin D deficiency. So I went there a few times to get tested and I loved, I mean, I remember it didn't feel like I was at a hospital. No, it felt like I was just, you know, going somewhere with

my parents for a few days. It's, I remember it, definitely remember it. My gosh. So all the commonalities of experiences we have, all the same people we admire so much.

And that. you've also know about Kennedy Krieger, which now has another one that has expanded. It's a great institution.

It's fantastic. Yeah. I have all good things to say about it. I had a great experience there and they helped me and I no

longer have to take, you know, all the supplements for vitamin D. I still struggle a little bit. I get the stress fractures and everything like

that 'cause my bones... But they they were fantastic. And yeah, I know ,it's fantastic there. So tell me a little bit about you before we terminate this.

What... Tell me about you. What are you doing? Well, I have one more semester. Getting close to the end.

I, as you know, I'm part of, I created the women's roundtable organization at Towson and I was honored to be awarded with the Women's SGA Empowering Women award this spring, which is really awesome.

Congratulations. Thank you. And I also work with the Universities of Maryland Women's Forum. They have reached out to me and partnered with me.

I also work with both academic journals in the CLA. I just retired from being the editor in chief of the Towson Journal of International Affairs, and I'm a student editor on the Journal of Historical Studies.

And I'm involved... I definitely have squeezed out every opportunity I possibly can within my last couple years. I've been involved in student government.

I've been, I was a scholarship chair for the Towson University Honors fraternity. I'm still involved with them, which is fantastic. We do a lot of community service and I worked with housing, I

worked with pretty much everything you can. So it's safe to say I have definitely tried to get every opportunity you can out at Towson. And now my last semester, I will be working with the Towson

University Students Foundation for my last semester. So I'm very excited for that. Going to be working with the President's office and I'm studying law and American civilization in history.

So that's been fantastic. I've had a great experience at Towson and it's been wonderful. And my brother goes too.

You've made it that way. I mean, there are so many... In everything now. Now, what are you going to do next? But what are you going to do next?

So I will be taking the LSAT in September, and will probably have to take it again, as most people do. So the dream is to go to the University of Baltimore's law school.

That is what I would really love to do. I would love to work through the state and be a state prosecutor and maybe a District Attorney, you know, way in the future. But that is definitely the dream.

I really am passionate about women's advocacy and that's definitely been a big part of my time at Towson is working and trying to make sure that women hear positive stories about other women.

It doesn't matter what kind of hat you wear. It doesn't matter what religion, sexuality, study, anything. It doesn't matter, just women supporting women and how we have gotten here and how we can support the women of Towson.

So that has been something that I've been very passionate about and hopefully I can carry on with me. We're all gonna be cheering for you, Judy, Allison, we're all gonna be cheering for you.

Oh, you guys have been so fantastic. I know Judy has been. She's been great with she.

I know, she said, she goes., I want you to meet Doctor Grasmick. I said, I would love to meet Doctor Grasmick. That's so sweet.

Yeah, she's been great. And Erin, she was a fantastic speaker. And I talked to Doctor Allison McCartney quite a bit. She's great.

And everyone at Towson, they want to help you succeed. And they're, I try to tell, especially younger freshmen that there are so many opportunities at Towson. You just got to look for it.

And there's so much to do. There's people just want to help you and you just have to open your eyes. And I guess networking has been my best friend the last four years.

Well, you get to know people. You are a model. You are a model. Gosh, we all... I'm just so proud to have had this opportunity to know you.

Oh. Really! I wanted to be able to meet you. This has been fantastic. Well, you have to stay in touch with us through this next, you

know, semester. I would love to. I have to set up some speakers for my last semester with the women's organization. So I was going to reach out regardless and definitely see if

you guys had any ideas or if you would like to speak. I know your schedule is so busy, so I didn't even know if that was... I would do anything you want me to do. Oh, you'd like to come speak?

I would love for you to come speak. We can definitely set that up. Allison and I could do it together or whatever. I'd love... We could do....

We could do a panel and I know a lot of women would love to come to that. Well, count me in. Perfect.

You are amazing. I'm honored to be interviewed by you. It's been great to have... I mean, you've given us so much wonderful information and it's

been great to see how your experience has changed over the years and how Towson's, I guess, environment has changed. Oh, hugely. And it's great. It's one of the reasons I applied to the project because

it's been wonderful reading and learning and all the different aspects. I know my fellow students on the project they're doing disabilities, race and sports, and then LGBTQ.

And it's just interesting to hear about all these different experiences of people. And it it's great how Towson students become so accepting of everybody and everybody has opportunity.

It's really a Mecca. It's really a Mecca now. So congratulations to you and I'm grateful that you interviewed me and and and I will do anything you would ask

me to do. Oh, thank you. Well, I'll definitely send an e-mail. I'll send it.

I mean, planning, the earlier the better is what I say. So I will definitely reach out in the next few weeks. Absolutely. And I did have one more question, if that's all right.

Yeah, I just have another Zoom meeting. So I just have a minute. It's a short little question. My last question for the interview is who else would you recommend that we speak to with continuing our work with the

Unearthing Towson's History project? Have you talked to Lisa Plowfield, who heads the... Who's the Dean. Lisa Plowfield? Yeah, she's in the new building, the big new building. And she's responsible for

all of the health initiatives here at Towson. Perfect. Wonderful. And I will absolutely be reaching out to her.

Please do and tell her I recommended her. I will. I will. Well, again, it has been absolutely wonderful to have

you. It's been lovely to meet you. Hopefully I meet you in person soon. I'm at Towson at least once a week, so I'm sure we can set something

up. But thank you. I know you have a busy schedule, and it has been an honor to learn about your Towson University experience and your journey into

teaching. Thank you. And it's been wonderful to learn about you and thank you for helping with all the technology.

My pleasure. And it's been great to listen to as well. Thank you. All right, have a great rest of your day.

Thank you.