Interview with Martha Kakooza

This is an interview with Martha Kakusa conducted by Cutie Constantino on October 30th, 2023 at 3:00 PM. How are you today? I'm doing good.

Had a hectic day at work, but good nonetheless. How are you? I'm good. Thank you.

So I was looking into sort of your background when it comes to the women's studies department at Towson, and I see that you were there for undergrad and grad and you even taught adjunct there.

So you seems like you have a lot of different perspectives within the department. So I'm going to start off with undergrad, focus questions and kind of move into the other areas in which you have

experience. So for undergrad, why did you decide to come to Towson and how long did you stay? So originally I was so I'm from Uganda and I was just like

looking for universities to go to, like, different countries. I was looking at the US, the UK and Canada. And I had a friend who actually was at Telford University. And so I was like, there's one person at this university that I

know. So, yeah, then I applied to Telford University. I got accepted and I was there for, I think 3 1/2 years from three years maybe from 2012 to 2015 as an undergrad.

Very cool. And when you went to Towson, did you go right into the women's studies department? Did you know that's what you wanted to do?

No, I did not know. That's what I wanted to do. I came in as a chemistry major because I wanted to go to pharmacy school.

So I came in as a chem major, took a couple of classes, and I actually took my first women's studies class, which was Women in Perspective with Doctor Cecilia Rio. It was an electric class, like the core classes that we had to

do. And then after taking that class, I was like, oh, this is really interesting because I've never heard of the perspectives that we're learning about in class, some of which included

the socialization of, like, gender, race, the different experiences of women and how we experience the world differently than men. And then I took another class which was filling another core,

which was International Perspectives of Women by Doctor Esther Wangari. And after taking those two classes, I was like, OK, I'm convinced.

Let me see what this could look like. It's really interesting. Were there any, like, experiences in your life from being an international student that led to your decision of

going into women's studies as well? So some experiences that I can think of, like growing up my I grew up in a single parent household, which was like single parent mainly.

My dad and my dad was very adamant about us getting an education, right, because as an international student you're paying like so much money and then the dollar exchange rate and everything like that.

But my dad was like super adamant about like, especially us, the girls getting an education. I have three sisters, so there's four girls and then two boys. But I saw an emphasis in the way my, my dad made sure that we

were set up for the future. And most of the time that looks like education. So I think reflecting back on those, I mean, like being a woman's study is major.

And then reflecting back on my childhood, I could sort of tell why he was super adamant about that. Like, I would call my dad a feminist. I don't think he would call himself a feminist just because

of different, like, cultural expectations and, like, norms. But yeah, I guess like that was one of those were some of the most like distinct experiences that made me that I respected on after Very Cool and for undergrad.

What was your overall experience and relationship with the department? My experience was really, really great. I think it was in my I switched to women and gender studies when

I was in my sophomore year, so I was in the department fully for like 2 years, which it was a great experience. In my junior year I got to do an independent study with Doctor Esther, which was on the structural adjustment policies

and the cultural education in Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania. So doing something that was close to home, although I didn't experience like free education growing up, I got to do like some research around that, read literature, figure out why was

this something that the UN had put in their sustainable development goals. And that was really nice to just get that like research experience as an undergraduate student.

Additionally, I got to do a lot of work with Doctor Rio. I will never forget my favorite. I think my favorite class was the capstone class that we had to do.

It was on Feminist Economy and I did some research with a friend of mine figuring sort of she's a social entrepreneur now. I would say that in terms of like that class and we were looking at how she started her business, the reasons why she

started it and what social entrepreneurship looks like in the African immigrant community in Baltimore. So just having that much research experience and getting to independently think but also think in collaboration with

instructors in Towson was those are some of the hallmarks of my experience as an undergraduate student. That sounds really great. Do you think those experiences like especially with research is

what inspired you to keep going into grad school? Yeah, definitely. I will never get those. A midterm that I think it was either a midterm or final.

It was a method that I did and we would have to write in blue books, like write essays in blue books. And as we were getting back our grading, I remember Doctor Rio put in one of my blue books, like you should consider getting

a PhD. And that's not something that I had thought of. I don't think I had necessarily thought about graduates. I thought about Graduate School, but I thought I would always go

and do law school, right? Because I switched to women and gender studies from pharmacy. And I was like, OK, maybe I'll go be a lawyer or something like that.

And then she was like, you should consider doing a PhD. And this was an undergrad, so I'd never thought that far. But having those experiences doing research, but also having like, professors who saw the brilliance in me and like,

encouraged me to go do whatever I wanted because I was just like, oh, I'm a normal person. Everybody is like thinking in these ways and doing this work. But to have people who consistently supported those

goals and even just like, brought them out even when I know I didn't have them, was amazing. So yeah, yeah, very cool. It sounds like you got a lot of support within the department.

Are there any, like, specific instances or people that supported you as well, or maybe other students in the program with you? Oh yeah, they were.

We were a good cohort of students. I now forget her name, but there was another student in the department who I worked a lot with. Been a couple of years.

But I also worked a lot with very Kanika, who I believe is now an adjunct instructor in the department as well. We've worked together. I know is that now as a PhD student, sometimes I'll reach

out to them and I'll be like, hey, do you remember this book that we used in this class in undergrad? It was around like it was, I think in Doctor Wilkinson. I'm in this theory class because I use some of those theories now

and I reach out to them and we're still in communication to this day. But I remember like they supported me as as a graduate student there was, I mean as an undergraduate student we also

did a lot of like what are they called like study groups to like study for midterms and if there's something that we didn't know. So I I definitely, there were lots of students that I

definitely interacted with and many of them I still talk to feel this day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really cool. I know a lot of people that go into women's studies actually do

it like through cores, like how you were explaining you don't really expect to go into the field. But there's been really like a lot of positive experiences that come with that and get people more interested in it.

So I think that's really interesting that you mentioned that because I had the same experience. I took it for my core class and then I was like, this is so cool.

So yeah, yeah, that's amazing. So going on into your experience at grad school, you stayed at Towson, right? So what was your overall experience with grad school and

how did it differ or I guess build off of your experience with the department for undergrad? So in grad school, I remember the year that I came or the year after I had come, they'd hired a new assistant professor who was

teaching women and health, specifically Doctor Jamita Barlow. So in undergrad I did the concentration on international women in an international and social context, I think.

But when it came to grad school, see, Doctor Barlow came from the public health arena, community health. And so I got to one work in the department as a graduate assistant.

So that was helpful in terms of, like, just tuition and stipend. But I also got to work with like, the director of the graduate program, who at that time was Doctor Wilkinson. And then it changed to Doctor Wangari at a point.

And then it changed, like throughout my time there, it changed to a couple of different professors because people are sabbatical and different things like that. But I also got to work closely with Doctor Barlow on some

research. And that was again, like, super helpful. I got to like be a participant researcher, learn new things about research in regards to like black women.

I also got to do because I remember we had to do either a portfolio or something to do with research or an internship. And during my final year I got to do an internship at Hopkins, the School of Medicine, and do research around black women's

maternal health. And that was like super helpful, right? To see to one have a collaboration with another institution, but to also see it like come to life and have it be

beneficial was really cool. We also got to present at the National Women's Studies Association, actually just passed this past weekend as well.

But the last time they were in Baltimore was when I was in my first year of grad school. So Barrick, who I talked about Doctor Rio and I got to present the research that we had done for the Capstone and then I also

got to present with Doctor Barlow on a project that we had done called Saving Our Sisters. So we got to do and that was my first like introduction into presenting at academic conferences and what that looked

like and to just have the support of the department was like super helpful. With that. I also got to collaborate with students from different

departments. So I feel like my grad experience it was different from undergrad in that it was more it was collaborative. Again, I still did a lot of research but I was able to do

research with people in other departments. I I took a class on non profit writing by Doctor Starkey which they encourage a lot of people in our department to do. Super helpful experience because now I use some of the work that

I learned in that class. We also got to write the grant for an organization and both of them were in Doctor Stuckey's class and we actually got the grant for the organization.

So just having like real world impact was just amazing. So yeah, that's super cool. It sounds like grad school gave you a lot of opportunities within the field, like both in and outside of Towson, which is

really important. Yeah. So it was like super important. So yeah, definitely give me both.

So what would you say at a current women's study, students who are considering going into grad school for women's studies, For women's studies, Is this a Towson or anywhere? Just anywhere.

I would say if you're in grad school, make good use of your experience, right? And by that I mean take an opportunity to do independent research if that's offered at your institution.

If you are also offered the opportunity to do a thesis, I would encourage people to do that, because we actually had that option at toughen, but I chose to do the research internship.

But I encourage people to do a thesis, but also like build connections with not only your faculty members, but different faculty members at different institutions. I think this is the thing about women's studies.

It's such an applicable field, but sometimes it can feel very, very what's what's the word? I can't think of the word for it. It can feel very it's an applicable field, but it can

feel like, oh, what am I going to do with this degree at the end of the day, right. And I think knowing what transferable skills that you have, right, by doing different things like collaborating with

different departments, because I got to collaborate with the School of Medicine because I had conversations with faculty members who are like, oh, you can actually focus on Women's Health, specifically black Women's Health, right.

So having that opportunity, and in grad school you also want to get opportunity to do like internships and different things like that. So by the time you graduate, if you don't plan to go do a PhD or

you plan to do something else, at least you have real world experience. So knowing that a degree in women's studies does not put you in a box, it actually allows you to do multiple things.

You have a different way of analyzing and looking at the world because not everyone thinks about the ways in which gender, race, class ability, disability, sexual orientation affect the lived experiences of people.

But you get to learn that within a women and gender studies degree. So just hone in on those experiences and continue to learn.

Stay curious and yeah, have fun. Thank you. That's really important actually because I have noticed a lot of people are like what am I going to do with this degree?

But I think it's a really important piece of like just the education you can take with you anywhere really. Like you can go into any field. Like, I know a lot of psychology people that are doing it to help

in terms of therapy to get like, that more well-rounded experience. Or people like you said that you wanted to go into like, law school and those sorts of things that would also be helpful in

that instance as well. Yeah. And I think it's a super helpful degree because I did it in in undergrad and grad school.

So after undergrad, I taught in Baltimore City for like a year or a year and a half. The only reason why I was able to teach is because I had this degree and a background of, like, I'm having a different

cultural experience. So how do I navigate, right, and thinking about women and STEM. And so I thought about like, what ways do I want to engage my students who are minoritized in these different perspectives?

And how do I want to, like, encourage the learning of science, technology, engineering and mathematics in these areas? And then in grad school as well? I worked at Hopkins.

Like I said, I worked in a research project. Even now I didn't. I'm doing my PhD in higher education administration and it's a part of our four classes.

Is a class on gender and sexuality in higher education, right? And I work also at Hopkins for in the Centre for Diversity and Inclusion and I'm the program coordinator for the Black

Women's Collective. I've worked on different projects out there, like a special project coordinator, but like all these experiences came about because I have the ability to analyse like lived

experiences based on different dynamics and to offer help in those areas. So yeah, don't feel like you get boxed in, you can do different things like politics, law, science, engineering.

I remember we, one of the one of my friends from grad school was actually a Pharm D So she did her pharmacy degree and I was like, oh, you did what I wanted to do. So she did her pharmacy degree and then came back to do a

masses in women and gender studies so she could analyze how specific drugs, how specific pharmaceutical drugs were functioning in women's body. Right.

And so I think sometimes we can feel like, oh, what job am I going to get? It's like, what transferable skills do I have and how can I use these skills in these different fields?

Whether it's as an administrator, which I'm doing now, as a faculty member, as a web developer, whatever it is that you want to do, you have excellent transferable skills. If you know how to, like, communicate them in the right

way, Yeah, that's really interesting and really cool. Thank you so much for that. So you're pursuing your PhD at Morgan State right now, right? Yes, I am.

And what are you studying? I am doing my PhD in higher education administration. OK, so do you think like your experiences at Towson for undergrad and grad and all the opportunities you've had have

helped, like, prepare you into what you're planning on doing? Absolutely. So much because just the ability to do research through undergrad and Graduate School, to be a part of like the different like

research projects that I'm also part of presenting at conferences as well. Like I mentioned, I actually last spring I taught the gender and sexuality class in higher education and the only reason

why the instructor like was like oh you can teach this class is because one I took classes at South University but also because I have a degree in women and gender studies so being able to use those.

And also even now that I am doing my dissertation proposal, I have a more theoretical background because we have to take up from a theory class in undergrad and I think in grad in my master's I just had to take another theory class.

I am more like well versed with theories and how to like apply them in specific like research and different situations. I also work with. I also do research with Vanderbilt University on the

experience of the black immigrant girl and the development of their math identities. And the only reason why I'm again able to do many of these things is because of the experiences I had in undergrad,

Not just as a researcher working on different professors projects, but also as a student. Like right, Learning those theories, learning their application, learning how they're used in different stuff

like that. I'm able to bring a specific knowledge to the table. So yeah, my and also the writing. We did a lot of writing and women's studies, especially in

the capstone capstone class that helped me be a better writer to be able to get to where I am. So, yeah, yeah, that's very interesting. And then you mentioned a couple of times you were teaching at

Towson. How long were you doing that for and what was your experience with that? I did it right after I graduated with my masters, so that must be

like 2018. Still today. I still do it. Now I'm teaching an asynchronous online course, International

Perspectives of women. I'm sorry, what was the question? Like my experiences with that? Yeah, experiences, teaching and like if that impacted you to go

into like higher education, those sorts of things. Yes, it did impact me going into higher education. Oh, my camera goes, OK. It did impact me going into higher education because having

the ability to teach classes made me think about what ways do I want to be a part of the cycle of knowledge production and knowledge distribution, which is what much faculty members it is. It is administrator because I want to say I don't full team

member. At least I can become what's it called an administrator like, Sorry my it's probably the Internet at work that's making it really freeze.

But I hope you can still hear me. Can you? I can, yeah. OK, perfect.

Yeah. So I chose the administration administrative route. So I could have like options of doing both, either faculty member or being within administration.

But teaching helped me overcome a lot of fear. I am not someone who loves a lot of stage. I don't like more than two people at a time. But having to like stand up in front of the class and teach and

let me tell you, 15 minutes is a long time when you have teaching course. But that definitely helped me like build my people, people speaking skills, connections, communication.

And I think it's also one of the things that helped me get into my PhD program now but also helped me. So I like I mentioned earlier, I teach a gender and sexuality class in higher education.

This semester I am teaching with my professor. We're Co teaching a class on advanced qualitative methods. And that's because he's like, I know you know your stuff, but also you have teaching experience, right?

So that has definitely helped me in the different opportunities that I have today. Yeah, that's really cool. Was there anything in specific that made you want to go into

teaching? I don't think it was anything in specific. It was an e-mail, actually from Doctor Chris and Danner because she was like, do you want to teach them the department?

I was like, sure it wasn't. I don't think it's something that I thought about because like I said, I have so many like fears. I I fear that I don't know enough information.

I'm afraid of talking to more than two people at the same time. There's just like all these fears that I had. And so when she sent the e-mail, I was like, no, I don't want to

do it, but I I it took me a while to respond. But then eventually when I was, I responded, I was like, yes. And then there was an an opportunity that was opened up and then I started teaching.

So again, it's that thing of, I mean it's that like support that I've got, I got throughout the program with other people seeing things in me that I maybe didn't see in myself. So I'm like, what would make you think that I could teach?

Because I can't, right. And it took doctor guessing then or see maybe that in me and then sending me that e-mail that I was like, I guess I can do this. So yeah, yeah, that's really cool.

So yes, Where are my next questions? OK, so just in terms of like feminism in general, do you identify as a feminist or like, what type of feminist? And what's your experience with that?

I would say yes, I identify as a feminist. Specifically, I think about the the theories that have guided my work. Not just my work, but also my like life experiences and the

way that I move through life are theories. I mean the Ways of Knowing Within Black Feminist Thought by Patricia Hill Collins that talks about care, care for oneself and the community.

Knowing about the analysis of race and gender and how those different social identity affect minded experience in this world as the black woman specifically as a black woman in the United States.

Because I think that that's a different type of blackness that you have to like navigate. Yeah. So I think that black, black feminist theory and

transnational feminists start from Chandra Mahatny have guided the work that I do. So I think about solidarity building. How can I build community?

Like I said at Hopkins, I am the program coordinator for the Black Women's Collective. Right. So thinking about ways in which different sorts of black women

and I use women as an expansive term and share space with one another on a predominantly white institution and what that looks like. We do sister circles creating spaces for like black women to

feel free. I've also gone on to do different work, like thinking about the ways in which racialization and gender affect the way that we write personal statements to Graduate School.

So that has guided a lot of my work, has been guided by black feminist thought and transnational feminism and everything that I do. I usually go back to that.

So yeah, very interesting. You just answered like the next three of my questions by accident, but I'll move ahead. Well, so you already mentioned like, like, I guess you have

any, like, specific role models in the field. You mentioned like past feminists and like their theories and stuff. But is there anybody else that stood out to you that's guided

what you do now? Yeah, definitely. Most of the professors that I interacted with at house and I think about Doctor Rio and the way in which you taught me about

the economy and even in the way that I spend my money. Now I think about ways that I can get back to social enterprises, non profit organizations and not necessarily continue to build into capitalism and what ways

can I like find different ways to dismantle that. Even with the the where I choose to buy clothes with my consumption and different things like that Doctor Barlow working with her and me and Doctor Barlow are still in

communication to this day. I'm thinking about specifically like black women's experiences and what ways do I want to build community because she was the first person that I saw at that build community specifically for

black women, right To come together. And we used to have sister circles. And so having that experience and living through that made me want to build community with other black women wherever I

went. So at Morgan, at Hopkins, wherever I work, I always try to find a way to like build community with other women that look like me.

And that's definitely influenced the way that I even at the gym, I'm like, who's at the gym and what ways can we build community even in this space? Yeah, most of the instructors at South University continue.

And the things that I learned continue to like, impact my life. Those are like the three people that I can think about right now.

Like I said, Patricia Hill Collins work continues to inspire me. Bell hook work. I read a lot of bell hook shells.

Amazing work on teaching. There's a time, even within the the time I've been like teaching, that I felt like, Oh my gosh, I can't do this anymore.

And then I read bell hooks, work on teaching to transgress and that, like, revived me. And learning about the educational space and how learning is paradise and thinking about some of those

ideals and implementing them, whether it's in the classroom or in my own experience as a student. Like, what ways can I make learning a paradise for myself? It's really insightful.

Yeah. Thank you. So you already mentioned, like, I guess sort of your acts of feminism are like making these communities where you go and

using these role models as a way to kind of push you forward. Do you have any other acts of feminism, like on a daily basis? And if so, like, what does those look like or mean? I'm trying to think because I think, I think my whole life

like, since leaving the program or learning about, like feminism, I try to think of ways that I can do it in everyday life. And I would also like to point out that feminism is not about

just, like, women's experiences, right? If we think about like, people's experiences as a whole, so in different things that I do like everyday teaching and the work that I do like with the Black Women's Collective, I call in

people, call out people. If I'm like in a public space and someone says something that is wowed and derogatory, I will point that out. I still support like local spaces like Red Emma's.

I'm not going to Red Emma's a lot, and I will also like be mindful about where I'm getting my coffee. What are their work policies? Are they a collective and different things around like

unionization? Because these are all aspects that I learned within the different classes that I took at Towson. So I think about those things in everyday life.

I think it comes down to like, the small purchases, like thinking about ads. I'm on TikTok and every five days TikTok will try to sell you something.

And so I think about, like, even the idea of, like, consumption, clothes consumption, food consumption, all those are feminist acts within themselves. And so I'm super mindful about where I shop from and what are

their ethical practices and in what ways are they advertising women's bodies in a specific way and what messages are going out to people? And buy my I don't drink a lot of coffee, but I drink a lot of

tea. And so when I buy, like, go out to buy tea, I think about how much I like the workers getting paid, like how much am I tipping?

And then who's the tip going to? I try to support local businesses that are like in Baltimore. I live in the Towson area so I tried to support like a lot of

like Towson owned, like businesses, businesses owned by women, businesses owned by minoritized folks. I will prioritize those over and it's sometimes it can be quite expensive.

But then I'm like forgetting I like, I like to drink matcha. So getting like small cup of matcha at the specific shop that I like to go to is like $5 or $8 if I do it every day, right as opposed to a vet.

And it's like small. It's like a 12 ounce or less than that, as opposed to like Starbucks where I could be getting a huge matcha for much less.

But it's those ethical values that were instilled in me in the program and knowing that I'm a feminist that makes me make. I mean, the truth is that would have rather started making much at home, but that's another story altogether.

So I choose to buy it instead. But I'm super mindful about the ways I make those different purchases. So I think in in my everyday conscience, at the back of my

mind, I'm thinking about some of those things. It doesn't weigh me down because I think sometimes it can sound like, OK, this is a lot. I just think about them one time and I'm like, OK, this is a

practice that I want to continue. Yeah, I think that's really important to consider because a lot of times people don't necessarily see those as acts of feminism, but they are.

You're supporting woman owned businesses, supporting black-owned businesses and those sorts of things. And I guess, like, I mean, I'm assuming like once you've kind of created a habit out of it, it's become sort of like second

nature to you, which is really, really, Yeah, even just being mindful of where I shop. Like because in that cost of feminist economies that we took, I think that was the main class, it was a capstone class that it

took the doctor year. I'm thinking about like the ways that I even spend my time. How much time am I spending at work? Sometimes I take days off or I will work from home on certain

days. Now I have the flexibility to do that with the job that I have. But it's also that giving back time to yourself, that's a part of, like, being feminine.

Like, sometimes I try not to do the double. What do you call it, the double shift, right? As a woman, you go to work and then you come back home and you're cooking.

What other ways can I, like, navigate some of those things in my life? What other ways can I not have to do a double shift? What ways can I prioritize myself?

Yeah, even that. Even though that means like taking a walk during my lunch break and just different things like that. Yeah, that's really important.

Yeah. And like, I think self-care just in general, especially for women, is super important because like a lot of things that people face, then we need to take times for ourselves,

especially like with all like the work hours and like all the stuff going on in the economy right now, it's very important. So I think that was a really good point you made. So kind of shifting gears into a little bit of the stigma that

the women's studies department typically has just kind of socially like in the US have you faced any discrimination or judgement when you tell people about your involvement within the field?

Not necessary. I mean yes, I always get the like you didn't gender studies, like what are you going to do with that? And then after a while, when people like hear you week, I

guess like or, they think they know the things that you bring to the table. They're less judging though. I feel like as a women and gender studies major, I've had

to prove myself in ways that people within other departments would not have had to prove themselves right. People are like, oh, what are you going to do with that? Blah, blah, blah.

But I'm like, I can show you the job that I've had or I can show you my CV and different things like that, right? But I I would say the stigma of having to prove yourself and having to like articulate more deeply the transferable skills

that you bring to the table is enhanced as a women in gender studies major. Yeah, that's what comes to mind right now. Yeah, that's interesting.

And then how do you think we can break this sort of stigma and the stereotypes around women's studies? An age-old question. If I knew the answer, I would have like $1,000,000 now.

But I would go back to stressing again those transferable skills and the things that we bring to the table, because women and gender studies is at least the way that it's taught to Tellson, or my experience a bit, is such an intellectual field that

requires not a specific framework, but it's an intellectual field right that requires as much attention as I would say psych right, like political science and all the other humanities and social sciences.

Although it doesn't get the same, the same like rapport or the same like glory in the Academy, I think it's also just because the way people view it, it's like, oh, you're doing women and gender studies, so you're studying about women.

Yes. And there's also a lot of other things that I'm doing. So I think articulating specifically what the major or the field is about and the impact that the field could have

on the OR not just the larger Academy and by Academy I think about higher education as a field, as a like institution in general but also in the world, right. The application of the discipline in regards to real

world experiences. So I don't know if that answers the question, but I also think it's like an age-old question. But yeah, it's I guess more of like a rhetorical like I think

this is more of like a systemic issue, like a society issue. So like, I guess definitely, yeah, maybe like kind of standing up in these moments, but it's it'll take a lot to kind of actually change that I think so And even with the like

can't push back on a lot of things like critical race theory and then push back on trend issues and different things like that makes it that much harder to talk about the viability of this field of study.

So yeah, for sure. So what opportunities and experience did you have, like after you got your bachelor's degree? Or what could these, like, opportunities be for people who

are about to graduate with a bachelor's in women's studies? So after my bachelor's in women's studies, I chose to teach in Baltimore City, just 'cause I wanted to see what teaching was like.

And those experiences 'cause I had had some experiences in undergrad over the summers teaching, but I think teaching could be a good one. Another thing that I struggle with is in the economy that

we're in. It's so hard to think about like possibilities because I have the same thing with the students that I work with at Hopkins and they're all in different fields, none of them in women and gender

studies. But the possibilities of gaining employment with just a bachelor's degree are hard in the economy in general. But I would think about different things like teaching.

Oh, when I was an undergrad, I will tell you the things I looked at. I went to a website, calledidlist.org. I don't know if it's still exists, but I looked at working

with a lot of like non profit organizations because that's some of the work that I wanted to do. So thinking about like House of Ruth, I remember I applied to House of Ruth.

I applied to like different teaching programs because I wanted to teach different ways that you can be a program or project coordinator because you have the skills from women's studies working even in higher education institutions like

Student Affairs. Is there like a gender studies? No. The Office of Black Diversity, Equity and Inclusion usually has

positions that will look at gender specifically. I also know there was some in the health and well-being department. I know here at Hopkins we have agenda and Gender and sexuality

resource coordinator, but we also have someone that works in the student well-being around sexual violence and they're usually looking for people within the field of women and gender studies.

There's a couple of things that I can think of like universities, non profit organizations. Again, I'm I'm the sort of person who thinks that you can do whatever you want, apply for whatever job, might be a little

bit delusional, but as long as you articulate what you bring to the table, which I think is hard for a lot of people. But as long as you articulate the skills that you have and whatever you bring to the table, I think do anything.

But yeah, those are some of the things that I can think about right now. Yeah. Thank you.

I really love that approach that you have of this kind of using education as things that kind of amplify your skills and get you to do what you want to do and not like I guess so much So as you get your bachelor's and you're kind of locked into a

specific career and you have to do this certain job and that I don't really like that way of thinking. So I really like that you said that that does help me a lot right now because I'm going through about to graduate those

sorts of things. So yeah, just like look for whatever jobs that you want and try and find a way to articulate it in your cover letter as well as your resume because they people say they have like 5

seconds to read a resume. But whatever, how long they have to read it, just articulating those major skills in your resume. I think you can work any job.

I mean, that's been my experience. I've worked different jobs that I've wanted and that's because I've been able to communicate the skills that I bring to a space and these like communication skills.

Do you think you've learned a lot of this from Towson? Yeah, definitely. All the little things that not little, all the major things that I was doing at Towson helped me.

I also worked at Towson in the rec center. I don't know if it still exists, but Verdict Hall, I worked in Verdict a lot. So that did give me some experience.

But yeah, those are things I definitely did learn at Towson. They also, I have a Career Center. It used to be in on York Rd. In the math building.

I don't even know if it's called the math building, but that's where the Career Center used to be. So I used to like go to them continuously and ask like, what ways can I talk about like my life, my skills and stuff like

that. So yeah, that's really important. Yeah. And that's a really good resource as well that I don't

think a lot of people really utilize. So yeah, it's important to utilize a reason. I mean, you're not that you're paying for them at the end of the day, but you're almost paying for them at the end of

the day. So might as well go get someone, help you write your resume or like evaluate your career skills or take actually take a lot of tests.

So like, ING whatever tests that they would always offer, it's like, oh, let me go take the best stuff. Yeah, that's really important. OK.

What do I have next? So what do you think could be done to attract more students to the women's studies department in Towson? I hope that's all perfect on the record.

I'm like, I think maybe highlighting the experience of the past students might be helpful. Yeah, I'm like, this is recorded, so I have so many ideas.

But again, yeah, I'm talking after I'm joking. Can you delete that part? Sorry, let me stop. But like, highlighting experiences of past students

might be helpful. The professor's interacting like with different students. If there's like, maybe. I don't know.

Actually, I was like, it wasn't seeing someone at the different event that drew me and it was taking the actual classes. But I remember when I was an undergraduate, when I was a graduate student working with Doctor Barlow, a lot of students

were choosing to take women's studies, either as a major or a minor because she started Sister Circle, right? And it was an informal space where black women were meeting and I think just seeing a faculty member and have them be

so personable, which is like, it's extra work, right? Because you don't get paid to do that. But just to have them like, be in a space and be so personable, made other people want to major in the degree but also like

articulating, like, why do we need to have a women's studies program? What does it help us learn and do? And how does it help us navigate through the world?

Would help students, but also offering different things. Because I know, so you know those those boards still exist. I know they do in the College of Liberal Arts, where sometimes they'll be a board for specific department, and on that board

they'll have like, maybe this faculty members working on this research, this project. And then some of them will be internships, right? So offering like more opportunities for students to

see what they can do after graduation if they decide to major women in gender studies might be helpful. Yeah, I guess I sort of asked this question because to my understanding, that's what the motivation for this oral history

project is, Just kind of attract students and make this sort of like database of people's experiences. Because I guess something I've noticed a lot is like, people don't really.

I mean, some people do, but a lot of people I know don't go to college to study women's and gender studies. But by taking classes, especially like core classes, they realize how it's super interesting and super applicable

to what they want to do, and then they decide to go into it. So it kind of seems like one of those things that, like, we don't really consciously think about, but it's like once we pique your interest, it kind of is like, oh, I want to study

this. So yeah. And that's why I say, like the different ways to like, pique people's interest.

Maybe it might be better. Wait, am I still there? OK, sorry, Something popped up on my screen. I was like, what happened?

Something else, like, popped up at the top. It might be even like maybe the way that we name our classes, right? If if it requires like, maybe the major changes to, like,

gender and sexuality study. Because I know a lot of institutions have moved towards changing the name of the degree, but it also might be like the classes that are offered, right?

In what ways can we change, not change the classes, but offer a wider selection of classes so more students are able to take those classes? I tried to do the thing in the classes that I teach where their

final project is. They take the concept that we've learned in class around like gender analysis, the socialization of gender, and apply them to their field of study.

So if they come from like chemistry or they come from, they're either their field of study or their desired profession, right, that they come from like chemistry, mathematics, or they come from nursing and different things

like that. I have them think about what ways can the principles that we've learned in class apply to your field of study. So maybe you want to take a minor.

But also, if I know some people's interests ahead of time, I will try to invite, like, guest speakers who have studied women and gender studies, either as an undergraduate degree and then went to do a graduate degree in

something else. Or like my friends who are maybe like lawyers or they're different opportunities, like different career fields. I'll invite them to come speak to the students and relate the

topic that they're speaking about to women and gender studies. So I think it's just like having that even in the core classes, having those opportunities for students to think about how

their career goals could be met with a degree in this. Yeah, I think that's really important. Like, so because I'm a psychology major and I don't think there's any women's studies classes that count for

my major, but I took them anyway. But I think like that's a really big department that could benefit from more students kind of going into minors or taking classes in the department because I mean, psychology is

rooted in sort of intersectionality and like sorts of traumas and those sorts of things. So I think it's like a really well-rounded approach that not everybody realizes at first.

Yeah, Or even everybody gets. So if there's like more classes like women in psych or the decolon, like going for my decolonial feminist route of how can we like decolonize psychology?

Or how can we apply intersectionality, which is a field that started in critical legal studies but also is a black feminist feminist offshoot. How can we learn about, like, intersectionality within the

field of psychology And having maybe a professor who teaches both women's studies and Psych like that course and transdisciplinary like interaction might be like, super helpful.

Yeah, because I know there are even classes where there's like women in literature like that is a good collaborative class to like have with the different departments and have students. Think about if I want to be like a literature major, what ways

can I think about experiences of women? Yeah. And I think that's interesting, too. Like, right now I'm taking a psychology of gender class, but

it's through the psych department, and it's taught by, like, a psych professor. But I think a lot of the things that we're talking about would also be interesting to hear through, like more of, like a

feminist standpoint based in theories and those sorts of things. But I don't think there's any classes right now that kind of have that sort of crossover between the departments.

But I think if more were to, like, come up, that could be a really good way to get people in. Super helpful. Yeah, definitely.

What is there anything you want to say to current students in the program? I would say keep doing what you're doing. This degree is important, especially with the ways that

the world is changing and quickly before our eyes. There's so many things that are happening like every day or every other week we see about different crisis in different countries and around the world.

And having the perspective that you have can help other people or even yourself understand some of these things. Keep reading, stay curious. That's one thing I would always like, say, continue to love.

Sometimes school can make you not love learning, but continue to love learning. Stay curious and hone in on your transferable skills. Know that you are well equipped for whatever dream position that

you want and desire. It's having to communicate that to other people and employers. So learn how to communicate your skills, desires, and the things that you bring to the table to folks around you.

And good luck. Thank you. Is there anything else you wanted to bring up or talk about that I haven't already mentioned?

Go to professor's office hours. I'm joking. Do do that though. People were like super helpful.

You can find a bunch of opportunities if you interact with your professors. So yeah, like interact with faculty members, they might be able they know people who know people who know people.

And so that would be a really great networking opportunity for you for like students, everyone. Yeah, I think that's it. Well, thank you so much for your time and participation.

And thanks for all of your great insight and like your contributions to like, the women's studies field because it is really inspirational for me. So thank you for that.

Yeah, I'm happy to help. And feel free to reach out now that you have my e-mail. Yeah, feel free to reach out to me anytime if you need like, support or anything like that.

And ways that I can be helpful. I'm happy to help. Yeah. Thank you so much.