Interview with Herbert and Susan Garten

Speaker 1: Susan Fedder Garten graduated from the State Teachers College at Towson in 1951 with a bachelor's degree in education. Herbert Garten received his law degree from the University of Maryland Law School in 1951. Speaker 1: Mrs. Garten was a full time mother and homemaker before becoming the proprietor of several jewelry and gift boutiques. Mr. Garten has practiced law in Baltimore for more than 60 years. He served as president of the Towson State University Foundation from 1975 until 1982. These are their reflections. Karen Blair: Mr. and Mrs. Garden, thank you so much for taking your time and enjoying your beautiful home with us to do an interview for our teacher education oral history project. I think this is going to be a very special segment in our collective story. Karen Blair: We are trying to do a history across decades, and I think this, as I said, will add mightily to that story. I think a good place to begin is in the beginning. So I would like each of you, if you would, to share a little bit about your early social context,

Karen Blair: where you grew up, Karen Blair: what kinds of thoughts you were having as you went through school Karen Blair: about what you might want to do when you graduated from high school. So, Sue, would you like to start? Susan Garten: I always knew that when you came out of school, you had to have something that you were prepared to do.

Susan Garten: And I thought that teaching would be something that I could do, and I used to help in the kindergarten of different schools that I was in, just on a basis when the teacher was sick or couldn't come, or the teachers were very busy. And I helped in several kindergartens coming through the years. Susan Garten: And I liked it very much, and one I was there a lot. Susan Garten: And really, I felt like I was a teacher. Susan Garten: But I wasn't.

Karen Blair: Do you remember which school that was? Susan Garten: Strangely enough, it was the Roland Park School here, and it was the first time I really had ever been in the area. Susan Garten: And to go to Towson, I had three street cars and a bus to get there, until finally my mother bought a car. My father bought my mother a car, and I also had rides with another person in between. Karen Blair: So when did you- I'm sorry, go ahead.

Susan Garten: Go ahead. Karen Blair: I was going to say, and when did you decide that you wanted to come to Towson? Karen Blair: Was that just sort of where you expected to go to become a teacher? Susan Garten: I had known people that had gone.

Susan Garten: And I felt that it was better than… Susan Garten: I didn't want to go to Maryland. Susan Garten: And I wanted to be able to stay home and go from there to school, and it worked out very well. Karen Blair: Even though you had to take two subways and streetcars.

Susan Garten: It didn't matter. Susan Garten: Three streetcars and a bus. Susan Garten: Two street cars and a bus. Karen Blair: Herb, what were you doing in the meantime?

Herbert Garten: Well, in the meantime I was born in Long Beach, Long Island, and lived also in in New York City, in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Herbert Garten: And when it came time to go to high school, Herbert Garten: World War 2 was involved there, and I had been active in the Boy Scouts. Herbert Garten: And I had a cousin who went to military school, so I decided I would like to go too, and my parents were willing to send me,

Herbert Garten: so in 1942 I went to a school in New Jersey, no longer in existence, like a lot of other military schools, named Bordentown Military Institute, Herbert Garten: and had a high school education there. Herbert Garten: And from there I went to Syracuse, where I continued with the ROTC. Herbert Garten: And that's what got me down in this area.

Karen Blair: I see. Herbert Garten: Because we had a company of 200, a 198 of them were World War 2 veterans and a fraternity brother and I were the only non-World War 2 veterans. Herbert Garten: We came down to Fort Meade, Maryland. Herbert Garten: We were there for eight, nine weeks, and during the course of that time,

Herbert Garten: I had the opportunity to have a blind date with my wife-to-be, Susan Fedder. Herbert Garten: And I knew nothing about the area. I knew nothing about Baltimore. Herbert Garten: But I learned a lot about it during the summer of 1947. Herbert Garten: That's what got me here, and from Syracuse I came down here

Herbert Garten: and eventually wound up at the University of Maryland School of Law, where I graduated in 1951 and I was admitted to the Maryland bar in 1952. Herbert Garten: And I've been here ever since. I've only had one job in all those years. Karen Blair: Well, and we want to talk about that certainly, because you have done a variety of things in that one job. So that in itself is very interesting. I wanted to go back to your time… Why did you choose Syracuse? Herbert Garten: The headmaster of my school, Bordentown, and his son,

Herbert Garten: who became very, very close friends of ours, they'd come down here to visit with us in the 60s and 70s, Herbert Garten: and our children would go up and camp in Maine, and they were from Maine and had a lovely home Herbert Garten: that was previously a ferry boat dock and house on the Kennebec River, and we’d visit them every summer up in Maine. Herbert Garten: They finally decided that it was time for them to leave Maine.

Herbert Garten: In the meantime, Dean Smith had passed away, Herbert Garten: and his son Morris came down here, he said, Herb, I want to… Herbert Garten: I’m going to get out of Maine. I can't take the winters any longer. I want to move to Baltimore. I said, why did you pick Baltimore? Why not Florida? Herbert Garten: And it was a rare compliment. He said, I want to be near you.

Karen Blair: That's great. Herbert Garten: And that was here until he passed away, and his widow remained, I’m friendly with her. And then she eventually moved back to Maine. Herbert Garten: I have very fond memories of Bordentown, Herbert Garten: and of the faculty, and of the Dean,

Herbert Garten: and of each of the teachers. I got more out of that time I was there, Herbert Garten: including when I wound up with a wife as a result of having ROTC there and continuing it at Syracuse. Karen Blair: You did very well there indeed. Karen Blair: And in Syracuse, did you already know at that point that you wanted to be pre-law? Did you know that that was where your…

Herbert Garten: Now that's an interesting question. Herbert Garten: I had been pushed, always, by my folks, my father in particular, Herbert Garten: you get into medicine. Herbert Garten: He had relatives who were in the field, and he thought it would be great for me,

Herbert Garten: and I did well at Bordentown in the sciences. Herbert Garten: And I enrolled at Syracuse as a pre-med. Herbert Garten: But what happened to me happens to probably 90% of the pre-med students. Herbert Garten: They get to take organic chemistry and that's the end of their medical career, and that was the end of my career, so I didn't know what I was going to do then. I majored in psychology.

Herbert Garten: And then in the senior year at Syracuse, Herbert Garten: I had to make a decision, and there had been some lawyers also in the family, Herbert Garten: and I thought that might be a good choice, and I wound up making that choice. And it's been a good decision. Karen Blair: And so then you came down to…

Herbert Garten: I was in the University of Maryland law school. Karen Blair: Next, I'd like to ask you a little bit, or have you share with us a little bit more about when you met and how that started to, shall we say, blossom? Herbert Garten: Well, why don't you start at the blind date, Sue? Herbert Garten: I don't think she liked me on that first date.

Karen Blair: Let's hear from Sue. Susan Garten: We had a friend, Peggy Stemler. Susan Garten: The man knew her children, that came down with Herbert from Syracuse. So he said, I know a girl in in Baltimore. I'm going to call her. So the two of them went for dinner and stayed and spend time. Susan Garten: And Herb said, well, if we're going to go out I need a date. So they showed him some pictures and he selected my picture.

Karen Blair: Oh, so you were selected from the lineup, huh? Susan Garten: It was fun. Yeah. Karen Blair: So what was that first date like? Susan Garten: Interesting. Very different than anybody…

Herbert Garten: That was her first date with a New Yorker. Karen Blair: Do you want to elaborate on that? Susan Garten: He was kind of overwhelming. Susan Garten: But I liked him. He was kind and fun. Loved fun. He had done so many things.

Susan Garten: I had led a very then sedentary life, I’d say. Susan Garten: Very different life than he had. He had been in so many places that I had never been, so he was very interesting, and he was finishing Syracuse and debating, really thinking to go to medical school. But as he got closer and closer, he just thought about it and decided to go to law school. Susan Garten: With much thought going back and forth between the schools and got into the University of Maryland because he was down here. Karen Blair: So was that a major factor in your pursuing the University Of Maryland?

Herbert Garten: Definitely. Karen Blair: Wanted to keep an eye on you. And so you dated through… Karen Blair: What were you, where were you in your education when the two of you met? Susan Garten: I was the first year of Towson.

Susan Garten: And fell madly in love. Karen Blair: I think that’s wonderful. So you were then down here as well already? University of Maryland? Herbert Garten: No, I wasn't. We’d see each other. She visited me in Syracuse several times. Herbert Garten: And New York.

Herbert Garten: And I came down here about four or five months prior to our marriage, which was on December 25, 1949. And incidentally, I keep getting reminded that our 65th anniversary is coming up Christmas Day. Karen Blair: Well, I'm sure you're planning something very special. Herbert Garten: I think our children are in charge of that part of our… At this at this stage. Herbert Garten: But anyway, I came down here and had to have a place to live.

Herbert Garten: And I was fortunate that the fraternity I belonged to in Syracuse had a chapter down here. Herbert Garten: And they were kind enough to allow me to move in Herbert Garten: for the four or five months before we got married. Herbert Garten: I was very fortunate, I had the most wonderful in-laws that any person could have.

Herbert Garten: My mother-in-law, my father-in-law, and they were very generous to us, Herbert Garten: and in those days we were able to live there. Herbert Garten: And we've lived with Sue’s parents, I guess for almost five years, the kids today are finding that many… I see this in my practice, and many of them find that it's easier to live with their parents or in laws than going out and not having money to buy a house or live well. Herbert Garten: Anyway, we lived well, and then we eventually purchased a home in Baltimore County.

Karen Blair: So you had a wonderful Christmas wedding. Karen Blair: And then did you both live with Sue’s parents at that point? Herbert Garten: Yes, yes. Herbert Garten: Not at the fraternity house.

Karen Blair: I guess so. That would be an interesting… Susan Garten: I liked animals and I had two birds. Susan Garten: When we went for flowers, went to a flower shop on Charles Street. A lady had this small place. I don't know the name anymore and it's not there. But she had parakeets. Susan Garten: I was so blown away with it when we went to Florida, I found that parakeets were not unusual. They were everywhere and we brought parakeets home.

Herbert Garten: This is on our honeymoon, yeah. Susan Garten: We brought a pair of parakeets home. My parents said, like, oh my God. And it was a lot of fun. So his father decided if we liked them, he bought six more, but he came up and… Karen Blair: Oh my. Susan Garten: We had an aviator, but before that I had a canary, one canary,

Susan Garten: and finally they said goodbye. The children can stay, but the birds go. I mean, really it was overwhelming for everybody and so… But very happy. Susan Garten: The families helped us buy a house and. Karen Blair: Yes, well, I'm sure they wanted to be helpful. Karen Blair: And so where were you at Towson? And this was the fall semester of your second year?

Karen Blair: When you got married, fall of the semester of your third year? Susan Garten: Third year I think. Karen Blair: And where are you in terms of law school? Herbert Garten: I was called up. I was in the reserves and I was called up.

Herbert Garten: But they allowed me to graduate in advance, and I went to summer school the summer before I was supposed to graduate Herbert Garten: to get the courses I needed at the University of Michigan School of Law, Herbert Garten: and Sue came with me that summer. Herbert Garten: Had all my credits and they allowed me to graduate in February,

Herbert Garten: and then I went in the army at that point. Susan Garten: They were taking everybody out of school. Herbert Garten: But they gave deferments if you were close to graduating. And that was different than being drafted. I was called up as an officer in the reserves. Karen Blair: Sure. And that's sort of…

Herbert Garten: So you understand that language. Karen Blair: Sure. That's what a reservist is. Susan Garten: And then he went into the service when he finished school. Karen Blair: Now, so, senior year.

Karen Blair: And it's time to graduate for Sue. Karen Blair: And you are pregnant with your first child. Tell us about that story. I mean, this is, you know, this is a black mark on Towson's part. Susan Garten: Well, I went to one of the Deans and told them that I was pregnant, that I wanted to stay in school. Susan Garten: And they said there's no problem whatsoever.

Karen Blair: And that was great. Susan Garten: So I didn't worry about it. Susan Garten: And then they wrote me a letter, another Dean wrote me a letter and said that pregnancy was unsightly and the school did not have to be subjected to my pregnancy and that I could not graduate with the class or be any part of the graduation. Susan Garten: But I didn't care because I was having the baby and I was graduating and it didn't matter. We didn't put any fuss up, but just let it be.

Susan Garten: And the baby was born five days after I graduated. Karen Blair: Perfect timing. Susan Garten: Yeah, really, it was good. Herbert Garten: But your mother was upset that you couldn't be part of the graduation exercises.

Susan Garten: Because she didn't have the opportunity to go to college. Karen Blair: Well, I agree with your mother. I would be upset too. Susan Garten: Honestly, I didn't care. All I cared was to be finished and have the baby. Susan Garten: Which was what did happen.

Karen Blair: Which was happening imminently, so this was of much more interest to you at the time. Herbert Garten: Yeah, but this had several happy endings, however. Herbert Garten: And why don't you tell them about what happened eventually? Herbert Garten: Many, many years later.

Karen Blair: In 2010. Herbert Garten: In 2010. Susan Garten: I graduated. They had me graduate. Karen Blair: Yes. And so in the spring semester now, Towson University has six ceremonies. Each of the six colleges has its own ceremony.

Karen Blair: And so for the College of Education you were invited to indeed be part of the ceremony and get that diploma, so to speak. And how did that work? Susan Garten: It was wonderful. It was a thrill, and I only wish my mother could have seen it. Susan Garten: Because all I… Karen Blair: They put you in the regular robe and the mortar board and the whole thing.

Susan Garten: It was great. Susan Garten: And it was interesting. By that time, I think we had, we had two children, or three. Susan Garten: I don't remember the chronological time, but I think… Karen Blair: And how did we come to know this? Was this something that your kids were aware of who let us know?

Karen Blair: That we, the Towson, hadn't let you cross the stage. Susan Garten: They asked. They called and asked. Susan Garten: Somebody told them and they were aware that I hadn't graduated or been allowed to graduate. Herbert Garten: It was an interesting circumstance. I had a luncheon date with the then President of Towson on a fundraising matter.

Herbert Garten: And my youngest son, Maury, who was also a lawyer with my firm, knew about it. Herbert Garten: And he knew about this incident, although he wasn't around at the time, of course, and he happened to stop in while we were having lunch not far from here. Herbert Garten: He had gone to our safe deposit box where he found a letter, that he knew of. The family knew about it. And it was the very letter that Sue just referred to, Herbert Garten: from one of the officials at Towson State who went to a lot of trouble to compose a letter that basically included all the remarks that Sue had made.

Herbert Garten: I was in the army at the time. Herbert Garten: And I got a call from her, she said she wasn't upset, but she was crying, Herbert Garten: The gist of it was, they won't let me graduate or participate in the graduation. And she had a lot of friends in her class, Herbert Garten: and she wanted to participate fully, so I said, well, and I…

Herbert Garten: Granted, I had just passed the bar from the lawyer and you know, you think you can accomplish anything. So I got leave from Indiantown Gap and came to town all ready to take her case. Herbert Garten: And I was a complete failure. I met with… Herbert Garten: I'm not sure. Now I can't recall whether it was the person who wrote the letter, but it was a high official of the universe. Susan Garten: Dean Dowell wrote me a letter.

Herbert Garten: What was his name? Susan Garten: Dean Dowell, It was a lady. I told you, she said that pregnancy was unsightly and the school didn't need to be… Herbert Garten: So I got nowhere with it and went back to Indiantown. Herbert Garten: So it's just an interesting incident, and it shows you how times have changed.

Karen Blair: It is. Absolutely. I look at the, they included a little of the text in the Towson magazine. The University magazine had a story about this incident, Karen Blair: and just the language was amazing. I don't know, from a legal perspective, I can't imagine that we would get away with something like this in 2014. Herbert Garten: Well, it was so well publicized, it was in… Herbert Garten: The National Chronicle of Higher Education reported on this, and it did receive... We heard from people all over the country where it had been picked up.

Herbert Garten: And so it took a while, but things were righted. Herbert Garten: And that incident did not prevent us from being close to Towson, or being involved with Towson University over the years. Karen Blair: Which is very kind, gracious, generous on your parts, truly. Karen Blair: But you still sort of thought of him as a hero since he came on down here and he was going to fight the good fight even though it didn't work out as well as he had hoped.

Karen Blair: So we have you, whether you really were upset or not upset, as you said, a few days later after graduation… Susan Garten: We had a baby. And my very good friend at Towson was getting married that weekend. So I went to the wedding and went home for a couple of hours and went to the hospital. Susan Garten: Her wedding was on Saturday. Karen Blair: There you go.

Susan Garten: And the strange thing is that most of the people that I was close to at Towson in my class have died. She's been dead a long time, and honestly, a lot of it was cigarettes. Karen Blair: Really. I think that's a useful thing to note. Very interesting. Karen Blair: And I think I would ask, did you ever get an opportunity to get into teaching at all? Susan Garten: No, I substituted a little bit.

Karen Blair: And part of that was because she was the first of how many children? Susan Garten: Five, a wonderful family. Karen Blair: Very nice. So I think that… Do you think you had any opportunity to use those skills that you had acquired with your own kids? Susan Garten: Oh yes.

Susan Garten: And you know, with PTAs. Susan Garten: And we had children next… We always live near children and it works with helping with children, different children, recognizing what they need. There are many parts of teaching, Susan Garten: or not teaching, but seeing what problems are. I was able to, through the schools. Karen Blair: Sure. And I think that is part of teaching.

Karen Blair: All of that is part of that whole picture called being a teacher for sure. Karen Blair: And Herb, what are you doing? Karen Blair: Other than fathering these five children. Herbert Garten: I'm working as a lawyer.

Karen Blair: And where did you… Herbert Garten: Six days a week and 8 to 14 hours a day. Karen Blair: And where did you start? Herbert Garten: Well, I was very lucky.

Herbert Garten: I married the boss's daughter. And I've given that kind of advice to many people in my 60 plus years of practice, and it's a great way to be successful. Of course, got to be the right people. Herbert Garten: And as I told you, they were a wonderful, wonderful family. I was very fortunate. Herbert Garten: In fact, I thought over the times that the reception I got here in Baltimore and from my wife's family. Herbert Garten: Was very influential in me making a decision to marry Sue.

Herbert Garten: So it's been great. I'm still practicing full time. In fact, I feel a little guilty today in that. We'll leave immediately after. A federal judge is waiting for a call from me and we got some stuff in the office that I'm going to take care of, and… But Sue is very understanding. Herbert Garten: However, it's going to be a short day, Herbert Garten: because we have been invited to attend the farewell occasion of the retirement of the President of the University of Baltimore, Herbert Garten: tonight at the law school at the University of Baltimore, and I've had a very nice relationship with that school. I taught there for eleven years earlier in my career in tax law,

Herbert Garten: and all of our children who became lawyers, including my daughter, are graduates of the University of Baltimore School of Law. Herbert Garten: Great school. Karen Blair: So you didn't influence them to become doctors? Herbert Garten: They were pretty smart, but I was very pleased that they decided to go into the law.

Karen Blair: Well, they had a strong role model. Herbert Garten: Thank you. Karen Blair: About that kind of life and what you can do. Karen Blair: Is there anything that you… Tell us a little bit about the kinds of work that you've done, and somehow that probably has led you in to some of the service things that you've taken on,

Karen Blair: membership on boards and community, Karen Blair: All that sort of not-for-profit kind of work. Herbert Garten: I'm glad you asked that question. Herbert Garten: Sue’s dad and the firm were very involved in taxation and tax matters

Herbert Garten: at the state and federal level, and I knew nothing about accounting or tax laws and a very limited amount of it in law school. Herbert Garten: And no practical experience. I decided that I needed further education, Herbert Garten: and I took a year at Johns Hopkins in accounting before I went into the army. Herbert Garten: And then when I got out, I finished at a school called the Baltimore College of Commerce, which was very, very popular with especially night students, which I was,

Herbert Garten: in furthering their accounting education and also striving to then become a CPA. Herbert Garten: And so I continued on that while I was working full time law, Herbert Garten: And was able to, in due course, finish and gain the CPA certificate. Herbert Garten: I've never practiced as an accountant, but it was a very important part of my legal practice and led to introductions to extracurricular activities,

Herbert Garten: including a relationship with Towson University, then known as Towson State University When Sue was there, it was called Towson State Teachers College. Herbert Garten: As you know. Karen Blair: And how did that come to pass? How did that relationship develop? Herbert Garten: Someone had recommended that I speak to the then President Jim Fisher, who to this day is a very close friend.

Herbert Garten: And who I keep… We keep in contact with each other. Very remarkable man. Herbert Garten: And if you haven't seen his series of books on how to be successful being a college president, I can assure you that many other college presidents around the country have read these books or parts of them. Herbert Garten: In any event, that led to him asking me to become a member of the foundation, the Towson foundation. Herbert Garten: And they were very, very pleasant years, and I made some great friends and social friends as a result of being on that board.

Herbert Garten: And I was, I think, for a period of about seven or eight years, I was the chairman of the foundation. Herbert Garten: We accomplished a great deal, Herbert Garten: both for the school and also on the social end. Herbert Garten: One of the great things we did was refurbish and restore the Auburn Mansion,

Herbert Garten: and created a club called the Towson Club, which you may remember. Herbert Garten: And it was very successful. It was a very lovely dinner club, social club. Herbert Garten: Met tons of people as a result of that, but the people I got close to on the board was one gentleman named Paul Wisdom. Herbert Garten: Who you might remember.

Herbert Garten: Great person. Worked closely with Jim Fisher. Wayne Shelley was another person who went on to be very successful in other areas, but he was the financial person who I had dealings with during the course of also being on the board, and there were a host of other wonderful people that we still hear from. Herbert Garten: Christmas time and during the course of the year. Herbert Garten: I just ran into Elaine Shelley. Herbert Garten: A few weeks ago, the wife of Wayne, at an unusual Grandparents Day at the Garrison Forest School.

Karen Blair: I see. Herbert Garten: And we were sitting next to each other, and she remembered me, and I remembered her, of course. Herbert Garten: These relationships, a stranger coming to town, although I've been here a long time, Herbert Garten: and these extracurricular activities in the end proved very, very worthwhile,

Herbert Garten: and when I speak to young lawyers, including my own family, I encourage them to really get involved in the community. Herbert Garten: And they have. Karen Blair: That’s wonderful. And we kept you for seven years that we really… Were very gracious in staying in that position for seven years. Herbert Garten: Sue, when we… Just brought to mind something interesting.

Herbert Garten: When we redid the Auburn House, and we spent a lot of money in those days, about $700,000, which would be double that amount at least, Herbert Garten: it came time to refurbish the mansion and Sue came up with a wonderful gift. Why don’t you tell them about it? Susan Garten: Maybe I remember… The chandelier. Herbert Garten: She came up with a very formal, lovely chandelier that was in one of the dining rooms.

Herbert Garten: And they had formal dining rooms within the mansion, within the Towson Club. Karen Blair: Very nice. Susan Garten: We've bought a number of things for them, Susan Garten: and helped get it together. It was quite a thing to do. We really enjoyed it.

Karen Blair: Now, I’m trying to recall what's in that house. There was an interesting, I think, piano in there. There was an interesting grandfather's clock. Susan Garten: A lot of wonderful things were contributed. Herbert Garten: I don't believe much of those items are still probably in the building, are they? Karen Blair: I see. I don't know.

Herbert Garten: I haven’t been there in years. Susan Garten: They don't use it. I mean, it's just… Herbert Garten: Yeah, I think they are using it for faculty or some. Karen Blair: We are using it for some events.

Karen Blair: But not the way it was when it was a club and it was first opened. Everybody was very excited because what it… Do you remember what it was prior to that? Herbert Garten: Well, it was the original mansion there, and it was in complete disrepair. Herbert Garten: And that's what the money was spent for. Karen Blair: Well, right before that, they used it as a haunted house on Halloween.

Karen Blair: So you were very instrumental in making that wonderful conversion to a beautiful facility. Susan Garten: Truly, it was a lot of fun. Herbert Garten: Yeah, and I can tell you that the end result was… Herbert Garten: It had the same statues as the Hopkins club, just a few blocks from here, furnished beautifully, formal dining rooms.

Herbert Garten: Food was good. Herbert Garten: And I remember in particular a New Year's Eve event that we had there, I think it was the best New Year's Eve I've ever had. Herbert Garten: Sue might remember it also. And it was a cocktail lounge in the basement at that time. Herbert Garten: The Fisher years were great years for the university, and I think it's acknowledged.

Herbert Garten: Incidentally, he could have been the governor of the state. Herbert Garten: He was that popular. Susan Garten: Came close. Herbert Garten: Well, he didn't run, but he was being pushed for running but decided not to.

Karen Blair: And so you are very busy rearing five children, but at some point in your life you have an opportunity to get involved in a commercial enterprise yourself. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Susan Garten: Well, these things are often very unusual how they happen, but down in Stevenson, which was half a mile from our house, there was a little shopping center, and I was buying some antiques here and there and trying to figure out how to do what, Susan Garten: and using things mostly to furnish the house. Susan Garten: And I’d take things down to these two girls that had opened a shop.

Susan Garten: And one day one of them came up and said, Susan Garten: Here's the key to the store. You have more merchandise than we do. My partner is not paying any attention. Susan Garten: I'm going to wind up in jail if I don't give up the store, I can't run it and it's not enough coming in, but I think you'll be able to do that. And I looked at her. I couldn't believe it. An unexpectedly, I was a shopkeeper. Karen Blair: There you go. And what was the name of that shop? Was that Heirloom Jewels?

Susan Garten: Yeah. I was more interested in jewelry, and I always liked the fact that they were small collectibles and small things that you could carry with you. I wasn't interested in big furniture I couldn't handle. Susan Garten: That was a different story. You need a lot of space for that, and then gradually two shops came in and it was wonderful until Alicia Lee, who was next to me, decided that she needed a shop twice this size. And she's been on Falls Road ever since. Susan Garten: So that was time to leave there. Karen Blair: So is there an Heirloom Jewels still open?

Susan Garten: No, no, not now. Karen Blair: Not anymore. But that was an amazing choice of things to get involved in after… Susan Garten: So many things are such an accident. Susan Garten: You never anticipate. It was a very happy time of my life.

Susan Garten: I met people from all over the country by doing some of the antique shows. Susan Garten: And it really is amazing how these shows attract people that would never talk to you. Have never met, have any reason to meet. It was good. Lovely. Herbert Garten: Had celebrities who were coming to Baltimore visit your shop too, which was then in Cross Keys. Herbert Garten: Remember, one of them.

Herbert Garten: From Hollywood. Susan Garten: Yeah, Whoopi. Somebody called me. Goldberg. Somebody called, one day, it was pouring down rain. No customers. Horrible. And the phone rings. Susan Garten: And she says, this is Whoopi Goldberg. I'd like to come shop with you. And I almost said, sure. Susan Garten: So she said, I'll be there tomorrow morning, but I don't want you to have anybody else in the shop when I come in.

Susan Garten: So the next morning we got coffee and buns and candy and all these sandwiches and all. And she came. Karen Blair: How wonderful did she buy anything? Susan Garten: She bought beautifully, and I was thrilled, and then came back another time when she was at Baltimore, another time making movies there, and it was, you know, there's always one thing in your life that is a very different and marvelous memory. Karen Blair: Oh, absolutely special.

Susan Garten: Yeah. You think it couldn't happen, but it did. Karen Blair: That’s wonderful. How nice that these things just sort of, as you say, happen. Susan Garten: And she was she was very interesting, as you can imagine. Susan Garten: Lived everywhere. And she came with a bus. She would not fly.

Karen Blair: She came with a bus? Susan Garten: And she had a big bus and they had partitioned it off that she could sleep on it easily. And they would drive her all around the country to the places that she wanted to go or needed to be. Susan Garten: And for movies and so on. Susan Garten: I mean, it's just something magical that happens in your life.

Karen Blair: Absolutely. Little piece of Hollywood right here in your part of town. Karen Blair: That's great. Karen Blair: What haven't we talked about that you want to share? What things did you have in your head that, oh, this is something we must mention. Karen Blair: Can you think of anything?

Herbert Garten: Well, of course you you've seen our home now. Karen Blair: It's beautiful. Herbert Garten: And we had a larger home. Herbert Garten: Fortunately, I was a great salesman and I got my youngest son to buy the house, and he got a good deal, of course.

Karen Blair: I'm sure. Herbert Garten: And I'm very proud of the tradition that he's continued with the house. Herbert Garten: For example, when we go to dinner, Herbert Garten: he and his wife Alice insist that we sit at the head of the table.

Herbert Garten: The same table that we had when we lived in his home. Herbert Garten: We decided not to have a formal dining room in this condo, and I might say that Herbert Garten: for any of the people asking advice or what our reaction is, Herbert Garten: this move about three and a half years ago was pretty smart on our part.

Herbert Garten: It worked out fine, and Sue, what do you think about living here? Susan Garten: Well, there's different segments. Herbert Garten: This is an endorsement for the building. Susan Garten: It's different segments of your life.

Susan Garten: And I think I couldn't imagine that a building could be more responsive to people and to their needs. Susan Garten: And so on. And it has been wonderful. And I've never missed my home because it's comfortable, and the apartment is just large enough that we each have privacy. Susan Garten: And the children can still come, and we just put some leaves in the table and there we are. So we're always very happy that it has worked out extremely well and Herbert is closer to his office and that's been good for him. Herbert Garten: I don't have to get on any Beltway or the Jones Falls Expressway, and this morning going out to Timonium,

Herbert Garten: I could see the traffic going downtown was impossible. It was a parking lot. So it was good to avoid it, and now I'm taking streets that we took before the Beltway existed or Jones Falls Expressway, like, coming back from Timonium I didn't dare get on the JFX, I just came down Charles Street. Herbert Garten: So I give a lot of advice to clients and to others about the values of in town living, condominium living, Herbert Garten: and it's worked out for us. We're very pleased to be here. Karen Blair: Well, it looks as though you brought all of these beautiful things that you had in your house

Karen Blair: to your condominium, and so you really are sort of in the midst of everything that's beautiful and comfortable and… Susan Garten: Thank you, honey. Karen Blair: It’s true, and part of the collection that you've acquired over time. Karen Blair: Sort of, you moved the whole thing into a condominium for the most part.

Susan Garten: Well, a lot was shared with our family, nothing was really sold. Everything went to different children so I was very happy. Herbert Garten: Sue has been a collector all her life, her mother before her. Herbert Garten: She’s gained a lot of knowledge, her advice is sought after all the time. Like, all people of from all walks of life, Herbert Garten: including educators at the very highest level, will rely on her for opinion with regard to all kinds of matters.

Herbert Garten: So she really is an expert in her field. Herbert Garten: And I can say that we've enjoyed this interview, unless you… Is there anything else you want to ask us? Karen Blair: Oh, I don't know. I mean, I could ask you more and we could stay for a day, but I think we won't impose on you any longer. This has really been a lot of fun to tour your condominium and to talk with you about your life over the past 65, 70 years has just been marvelous. Thank you so much for doing this. Herbert Garten: And thank you. I'm sorry I was so difficult in tying down the date. You're very patient to wait over a year.

Herbert Garten: But it's finally worked out. Karen Blair: It did. Yeah, we knew you'd come around sooner or later, and it was well worth the wait. Herbert Garten: Thank you very much. Herbert Garten: Really enjoyed, I meant it.