Interview with Graziele Grilo

Hello. Hi. Sorry. It's OK.

How are you doing today? I'm good. How are you? I'm good.

Thank you for taking the time to meet with me today. I know it's, like, you know, holiday season, it's getting a little busy, a little hectic. But I want to say thank you for that.

And I also wanted to say how do I pronounce your name? So I know I'm getting it correctly as well. It's Gra-zi. Gra-zi.

Yes. OK. Great. Great, great.

Great. All right. So thank you so much for, again, meeting with me today. Give me one second so I can pull up some questions for you as

well. Of course. Yeah. So I am aware that you are a previous graduate student

of the Towson Women's Studies department. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. And you are a current student, right?

Yes, yes, I'm a current student. I'm not with the women's studies department, but I am taking a few classes. OK.

So I'm interested in the department. Yes, that is correct. Thank you, very exciting. And I wanted to ask, you know, I already kind of touched a little

bit on this, but you know, what's your educational background? What... Where is there anything in your educational journey that made

you want to study women's studies? Yeah, so I have a bachelor's. My major was in political science, and I also have a teaching degree in social sciences.

I graduate from Brazil, so works a little different with these things, but I think I was always interested overall in the topic of gender. And so when I start my major there, you go to social

sciences. So you do a little bit of anthropology, sociology and political science. And then I opt for a political science track.

So you, I end up being exposed a little bit there. But I think it's more like personal experience that led to my interest to women's and gender studies, and that's why I decided to do my master's in the area.

Oh, that's great. That's wonderful. Yeah. A lot of personal experience does, you know, kind of guide

you in certain ways to what you want to do in life. So it's always great to have some experience as well. Yeah. I think it was much more, like, personal.

I had a very abusive relationship with my previous, like, boyfriend. And I feel that that relationship, moving to the US, also exposed me to a different perspective, I think, in terms of

the field overall. And that's how I got my interest in it. Oh, OK, I see, I see. And I'm no, I'm sorry to hear that.

All the women share, you know, similar stories as well. So having that background, you know, really does help other women as well to escape situations like that. So I do thank you for sharing that.

And then, you know, you mentioned, you know, you wanted to, like, the first, you were, you know, doing some International Studies, sort of, like, interdisciplinary studies kind of thing.

So going through different tracks and whatnot. And then that led you to Towson. Was there any other reason why you decided to come to Towson for your graduate?

So I moved to the US to be an au pair. I don't know if you're familiar with it. I am. OK.

So, and I was living in Owings Mills and as living here, I end up getting to know Towson and I liked the university itself. And when I looked at the program, it made me interested. I saw that it was one of the, or the oldest program in

women's and gender studies. The professor's background were... I felt I related to their background, to their areas of expertise, like Doctor Rio, she had done some work in Brazil and she comes from more this, like,

economy and Marxist theory side, but also Doctor Wilkinson and she had done a lot of religious study and that was one of my primary areas of interest too. So, you know, in reading all the profiles, I also became

interest in the department and also because it was more affordable than other places and I was already... I do have to agree on that one too. Same with me.

But there's just a lot of stuff to do at Towson and flexibility and whatnot. So I do like that as well, especially being an international student.

Yeah, right. Right. A lot of stuff, a lot of different people as well. So it's really great.

It's really great. It also made it easier because I was living nearby to just get to know the university and start looking for graduate assistantships.

So being close by was very helpful. Right, right. And so, do you do any teaching at all or of that kind of sort nowadays? So after I graduated this, one year after, I taught one class at

the women's and gender studies for undergrads at Towson. And after that I taught... So currently I work at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, and I'm a research program coordinator

there, senior research program coordinator. So I kind of, like, switch areas more like public health. There's a little bit less women's and gender studies. But also as part of my job here, I do some teaching in leadership

in tobacco control. OK, OK, I see. Yeah, I know it sounds very far away, but at the same time, I think there is a lot of, we have been discussing a lot of equity

and there's, you can bring a lot of the teachings from the program to my work life and just understanding how different populations are affected by tobacco use and... Right, right, 'cause, just seeing how they all

interconnect, how different people from different backgrounds, you know, might be more likely to use tobacco as a cultural thing, which is, it's really good to have that sort of context.

Yeah. And happily, I was very happily surprised to say that there is more and more discussions of intersectionality in other fields too.

So it is a, I wouldn't say it's, like, a new topic, but, like, in the last decade or so, we've been exploring it a little more. And I'm really excited to see, you know, what more comes out of these discussions.

Right. Yeah. All right, great. Well, I'm also glad to hear that you do a lot of research in

public health and tobacco, you know, public health is so important. So it's really great. Let's see.

And so while you were here, you said that you were an international student from Brazil, you're originally from Brazil. When you first came to the States, did you face any

discrimination while living here or for the first few times living here? I feel I come from privilege because I already spoke English. So that helped a lot. Right, right.

Even as an immigrant and even being white helped a lot too, and not being perceived as a very, like, typical immigrant either. So I don't think I faced many of the discrimination that I don't know if I can say most immigrants are just based also

on status, you know, being documented, all those things helped. And even from an accent perspective, which is funny because I think my accent is heavier now than it was when I

moved. But people also thought that I was from Europe, OK, which is also, I think something that helped when you are an immigrant, you know, you're coming from a low and middle

income country or coming from somewhere else. So I don't think I faced discrimination like many. I don't think I was discriminated based on my immigrant status.

OK, well, that's really good to hear then. Yes, I know, right. Right. It's like, you know, it's like, it's sad that the world discriminates against people based on so many different

things, but it's also like, I recognize the privilege that I may have and I'm, I want to say grateful for, but it's also recognizing privilege is, is super important these days as well.

We're all different and how people tend to... It's a lot. It's just a lot, but it is good to recognize that as well. And luckily or not, also being at the university, I think it's...

Most universities are overall a safer space because there are a lot of international students too. So that's helpful. Right, right.

Yeah. And then so while you were also at Towson, your experience going through the graduate program, any positive feedback, anything that you know you really... What really interested

you during that time, just any thoughts about your journey through the program? Yes, I will say that I think, and that obviously come from the positions of being in the US and funding, but university in

Brazil is much more competitive. So I never was really interested in being in the academic field there because I felt you really needed to, you know, I forgot the expression, but try really hard to connect with the

professors and do whatever they wanted. So you can get any kind of, like, exposure to research and be in their research team. So those opportunities are much harder and it's a much closer

niche overall. So people are not that open. And when I was exposed at Towson, I felt that the professors were very welcoming and open to talk to

you about and help you. So I really enjoy the support. It felt less, and even at Hopkins, too, surprisingly as well, it felt less, like, structured.

And there is that very hard, right, rigorous kind of class work. Yeah, right. Yeah.

And that power dynamic of like, I'm the professor kind of thing. It's... Yeah, I totally get that. There have been so many classes here where it's like, it feels

like you're just kind of meeting with everybody. And it really does help foster learning in a different way. I'm a little bit more receptive to learning, which I think is wonderful.

Yes, absolutely. I think it makes a huge difference for the education part and just being able to connect to your professors and have, like, conversations without, I don't know, being afraid of talking.

Or, like, afraid of asking, what people would say, like, a stupid question. There are no stupid questions. But when you were talking and speaking about university in

Brazil, having to, being so competitive, you didn't want to seem like asking, like, the wrong questions would be a negative thing. Yeah, I saw, I see that.

And obviously I was more mature at Towson. So when I started my undergrad then I was eighteen, right? Right. Like, looking back, I was so young and lost and I don't know

if being an undergrad would be the same experience or not, but I don't think there was advising, you know, which here seems to, you seem to have someone helping you through, you know, just picking our classes and what you want to do and

receiving more advice. So those things are really helpful. Right. So that's really good to hear. It's great to hear. What else?

And then how do people react when you tell them that you were originally a women's studies graduate or women's studies major? I know there's a lot of stigma when it comes to having a degree in that kind of field.

My aunt has a doctorate in women's studies, so she gets that question a lot, and she has to really defend her choice for that. How was those questions after you received your degree?

Yeah, it's funny, like, again, because I still work at the university. I think in that environment was really good. So in terms of work, people are very receptive and really don't

have much to say. Right, right. They see the relevance and importance. In my personal level, I just think people don't understand exactly what I study. Like, my family, extended family, you know, like, my husband's

family, I really don't think they connect and understand what genders and women's studies is. So it's kind of, like, very abstract and no one really asked me about it.

I see. Yeah. I mean, a lot of immigrant, like, backgrounds, families, they place a lot more emphasis on, you know, STEM majors and

whatnot. I'm daughter of an immigrant and so it's sort of trying to teach them how to recognize that while yes, STEM is super important, I think humanities also has a lot to offer in the

world as well, help navigate through the world, news and whatnot. It's super important, super important to have a balance of both.

So I think the women's studies department does offer a lot of background in that, which is wonderful. And even so, my whole family is in Brazil. I live here basically, like, in terms of immediate family, by

myself. But then I got married, so now I have a daughter. And so it's just my husband's family who is American. But my family in Brazil also, they had their own, like, Trump.

So there were a lot of discussions and conservative wave and discussions about gender, you know, and, like, this thing that gender ideology is bad. Yeah, yeah, the way that happened after Trump around the

world was felt and not just in Brazil, I think also in, was it Poland? I'm not 100% sure on that either, but it's a little bit scary, but it's taking the time to really educate people

using your degree and really trying to... Yeah, not that I feel that I have much space for them. And it's funny because even, like, close relatives, I think they, they are against this whole gender idea and like really

reproducing media, you know, platform and stuff like that. But at the same time, they are proud of me getting a master's degree. So it seems very conflicting.

But I don't think no one ever took really the time to talk and really go through these things in details. Right, right. And so I'm breaking out a little more into this. You're already saying that you, with your degree, after you

graduated, you were still working close with the university. So you did find work relatively, I won't want to say, like, fast, but, like, a little bit easier than some other graduates of the

department? How do you think or what would be your advice for those graduating from women studies major or graduate degree, how to find work in that field or to use their degree in that field?

Yeah, networking a lot. A lot of networking. One of the main advice I received earlier on was like, don't be afraid of asking. And I know it's tough, but one, and that was part of like the

advice, people like to talk about their careers or their trajectories. So most people will be willing to, you know, have a coffee with you and tell about their experience and how they landed

their jobs and the part of building the relationships and, you know, just putting yourself out there, which is hard, but it's also very essential. Yeah, yeah.

Learning how to market yourself is a huge, it takes a lot of work, but also really making those connections in in the field that you wanted to be in is really important. A lot of opportunities can come from that.

So that's great, really great advice. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really digital world that we're in as well.

So we're more connected than ever. So a lot of connections to be made as well. Right. Yeah.

But I also feel, don't miss the opportunity of things in person if you have the chance to, you know, just talking to the professors from the program and even others at the university. And seeing if they know people in other areas or other

organizations and everything is helpful. But yeah, I think it's the putting yourself out there that is the hard part. And to me, one part that I still not good at at is the

negotiating part. That is always hard for women too, right? Overall. Yeah. And then speaking a little bit more about feminism and what

does, what would I would ask, what does feminism really mean to you? It's a big question, I know, but I think it's super interesting to always hear that question from some people

'cause it means different things to everybody else. Right. Yeah. And I don't know if it has always meant the same thing

overall, but I think it's pretty related to equity nowadays to me. And, you know, I think it's both a way of helping me think through privileges, oppressions and how we are interconnected,

but also we can be so fall apart, right? But also like a motivation to keep fighting for equitable solutions and a better place for all, having in mind that not everybody has the same experience, comes from the same

places. And basically that that level field is not equal, you know, and we need to work harder to have some sort of equity there.

And also thinking, and that's the part of the feminism that I found very beautiful, thinking about nature and how that connects to us and that we should be more conscious.

So it kind of, like, puts everything together. You know? That's really interesting that you mentioned nature. I haven't really gotten a little bit further into that kind of, I

don't want to say subset, but that's the only thing that's coming to my mind right now of feminism. If you could explain a little bit more about that, that'd be wonderful, because I just haven't really heard about that

before. Yeah, I think overall, you know, it's just also part of this idea of like decolonizing and when you read other people and the relationship that, like, women have with nature is in other

countries or even if you think here in the US, like with Native Americans. And I feel that there we can learn a lot from the experience of being more connected and more one with the environment and

bring that to your everyday feminism and just incorporating because we don't live here by ourselves. Right, So right, right. Yeah, this is... We are on stolen land.

But it's learning about how, you know, they revere and respect the land is is really touching. It's beautiful and recognizing that aspect, it's really wonderful.

Yeah. And even from, you know, sustainability long term, thinking about our impact in the world, all those things kind of help.

So I can think of reference for you or I would even suggest talking to Doctor Wangari because she's really good with bringing this perspective too, of, you know, other countries and feminists in other countries thinking and talking

about their experience, their relationship with the environment and feminism, right? Yeah, that'd be wonderful. But yeah, even touching on sustainability and whatnot in

climate change too, it drastically effects black and brown people in different countries. It'll affect a lot of women. So I do see the connection and see how that is super

important in feminism as well and how that that can affect women around the globe. So it's really important to, I guess to really learn about women and their connectivity with nature.

Yeah, great. And then I guess going more on that, you were talking about equity and nature and its effects with feminism and how it's connected.

Were there any works that you read or wrote or published that were along the lines of that, or any works from other feminists that you really agreed with along those lines? That's a tough one.

It can also just be any of your favorite feminist works in general, which is also really cool. Yeah. I think to be able to really, like, stood up was the whole idea

of intersectionality overall. And obviously, like, really Crenshaw, but also the work post Crenshaw, I thought it was somewhat more interesting because to me it made more sense and incorporated more of a

holistic perspective and it helped to like fill in the cracks. So I took one specific subject. I do not remember the name but but I will try.

And it was with Doctor Costello, but she's not a professor in the department anymore. I'm trying to see if I have it here. No, no, it's OK.

Take your time. Sorry. My dog. I know it's like the second, like, you're on a Zoom call

your dog's like, pay attention to me. Yeah. It was actually called, like, intersectionality in LGBT communities.

And I just thought that she brought a lot of this different perspectives to to the idea of intersectionality that expand, and to me, it made a lot of sense. So one of the most, like, the readings that I really enjoy.

Let's see if I can find it here. I think it was, like, Leslie McCall, The Complexity of Intersectionality, and Jennifer Nash, I really enjoyed her too, and she had one that was Rethinking Intersectionality.

So yeah, to me, the thinking intersectionality in more a contemporary lens was really, really interesting and helpful in framing or thinking how I wanted to incorporate all the other fields of interest that I had.

Right, right. Yeah, that's wonderful. And I have to go give some of those a really good read. It sounds, like, wonderful.

If you could send those or I can just... That'd be wonderful. Yeah. I can send you the syllabus because I thought it was very

interesting. And she brought a lot of also other feminists too, and authors that incorporating a little bit more of poetry. That's wonderful.

Well, and, like, literature that was, they were good discussions. Yeah. It sounds really like an exciting read. So I'm looking forward to going through with that.

Yeah. And then on the topic of the women's studies department a little bit and your journey through it, I guess we're really talking about a lot about intersectionality.

This might be the answer to that. But you're right. But which theory or ideology did you connect with the most when you first starred in the women's studies department?

Yeah, I think it was intersectionality. Yes. Yeah, it is. It's really important seeing how different backgrounds of people,

how we form relationships with one another and recognizing the differences in everybody really leads to equity. So it's super important. Yeah, I do agree.

Yeah. And it was, you know, I feel that even when I did my thesis, it was a lot focus on still a little bit on public policy and marketing kind of a lot.

It was good to think through all of those other areas and bringing an intersectional lens. And again, like, maybe, you know, it's not intersectionality originally coined by Crenshaw,

but I felt that I end up, especially after that class, incorporating other theories and things that I was interested especially things about power. And I think that's why the intersectionality, excuse me,

goes well with the political science field in a way because it has a lot of the power dynamics. Yeah, I do recognize that recognizing different levels of power and how that might really, how that does discriminate

against women. It's super important to realize and try to work against so that we can all be on not even just an equal playing field, but also to sort of make up for the suffering

of women as well. So it's super important to really recognize that. And then for more in the women's studies department, how has the department or your journey and the lessons you've

learned impact your personal life or has impacted your personal life? I think it impact in so many different ways, you know, I think it empowered me to some extent.

And even, like, during that, I start caring more about myself and even, like, finding therapy and, you know, just that self-care. And that happened a lot because we had a lot of those

discussions also in class, which is very interesting. Yeah. So maybe that's, you know, the biggest impact I feel. Sometimes I wish I was more connected to still have or feel that in power

a little stronger. Like I said, that are things like negotiating that are super hard for me still. But I still, I even think about where I'm coming from and

why I feel that way, to think about ways that I can overcome those feelings, for example. Right. So yeah, I think it has had a huge impact my personal life.

And I really, really enjoyed my time in the program. It was hard to, I think, make friends, you know, I don't think... Like we were.... I think that's the hard part.

Or especially when you are older too, like, connecting to people and developing relationships that last. Not to say that people are not friendly or, you know, I had a great cohort and things like that.

But overall, yes, it was a great impact with the graduate program. I do see how that might have happened as well. It's a time in your life when you're really focusing on

graduating, a graduate degree and also work and it's a lot of stress and whatnot built into that. So I do, you know, see that. But even then the time or the connections that I made

with professors or, you know, the people in that department who come and left the department, it's still really good connections to have. So yeah, and then what continues or what motivates you

to continue to think about feminism or women's studies, or what impacts we can make with feminism? Well, probably nowadays my daughter. So raising a women in this world and having to navigate, you

know, I think through things like even abuse and sexism and those things and not knowing how to to even begin to have those conversations. Yeah, and just suffering because you need to have those

conversations and think through things that we shouldn't. I think that's still a big motivation. Right, right. Yeah, it's tough and it's a tough conversation to have. I'm not a mother, so I can't even begin to, you know,

empathize or feel what that might be like for you. But it's super important so that they're prepared to realize or recognize what sexism looks like and how, you know, they might be able to once they grow older, get older, to to

fight back against that or just to just even to recognize it in life is really, like, the first step. So it's super important that you mention that. Yeah.

And I think there are a lot of things, even the fact that I said that women, most women, probably every women that you talk to has had an abusive relationship to some extent and just trying to avoid those kinds of things.

And yeah, like witnessing, like cat calling, sexism, like, just things that seem so small but really aren't small at all when it builds up, and it becomes like a molehill. So it's super important to recognize that, you know, it

might be, like, sound like small locker room talk kind of a thing. But if that's their thinking that you hear, if you imagine what they might be thinking to themselves or doing,

and then acting, just super scary. So it's really trying to teach others about these certain things so that we can call it out as well, right? And then it goes beyond, right?

It's thinking about the other groups that you might belong, the other types of discriminations or privilege that people have and that they may not recognize. And just taking that time to think and, like, see, you

know, where you're coming from and how you can do things different. I think it's super important too. Right, right. So and then while you were... Sorry, excuse me, while you were

studying at at Towson, were there any prominent social movements happening when you joined the department during that time, either to feminism or to anything else at the time? At the school? Well, not necessarily at the school, it could be, like,

during, like, could be in the US or in or even back in your home country, that made you, you know, just think about how feminism might have played a part in that social movement?

Yes. So when I joined was right after or when Black Lives Matter was very much under, I feel like high in the media and when everything was going on, like, right after Baltimore.

So, like, Freddie Gray, that kind of time, yes, I think was like, I don't remember if it was the year after or like a few months after. So there was a lot of discussions on the Black Lives

Matter movement. And it was really interesting to see the perspective of and read, especially, of black women talking about how even within the movement, sometimes the voices of women or even like

transgender black women, black transgender were lost and they still focused a lot on men. So that was, I'm pretty sure, like, the the major movement going on in terms the US.

But again, like I said, it was also around this very conservative wave that really intensified. So there was still the discussions, like, against

abortion and this very religious conservative happening both here, but also a lot in Brazil too, that to me we're really impactful. So all these discussions around gender ideology and how bad

things are and... Yeah, yeah, it's dangerous thinking because when you aren't educated yourself and are in positions of power, you can do really drastic things that can really harm the lives of women everywhere.

And then when speaking on abortion rights, it's really disheartening to see so much misinformation and education or lack of education on it because it really does affect the the lives of women, like physically, mentally.

So it's really important to recognize that and work with or work to dismantle those levels of thinking. And then speaking on Black Lives Matter, yeah, there are a lot, of women, black women who were calling out the

fact that their voices weren't being heard as well in in the Black Lives Matter movement as well as other movements, like even back during the civil rights movement. It really it was, it was focusing on black people as a

whole, but also not really lifting up women as an equal sort of point of view as well. And then also issues of of colorism as well, which is a little bit different too, but it's still super important.

So it's just still learning about how we can uplift different people so that we can all liberate ourselves from struggle. So it it's really like a team movement.

And I do think about bell hooks a lot and how she talked about love and how that... Trying to phrase this. Really trying to uplift everybody is what she would think of as love. And how, what's it called?

Focusing on yourself and liberating yourself is is not really great in the long run 'cause you still have other people who share a similar background to you that are still a little bit different.

And you do have to recognize those differences if you really want to move toward love and and liberation, as she would say. Yeah.

And now that you mentioned, yeah, thanks for reminding me. That was definitely... bell hooks was, her readings, and this whole idea of effective politics was something that really stood up and that interests me a lot during the

program too. So beyond intersectionality, that was another area that, yeah, it really resonated to me a lot. Right. Yeah.

I really do connect with a lot of her writings and, you know, she will be missed, but I'd really do love the work that she's done. So that's really great.

I love that I was able to talk about that as well, touch on it as well. And then, let's see, I guess since... I guess we can start to wrap up a little bit.

I know you have got your time with the major or with the graduate program. What do you think would attract more people to maybe even add on a minor or change majors to the women's studies

department? That's a tough one. Right, right. I don't know. I'm sorry.

No, no, it's OK. It is a little bit difficult, but I think more people decide to maybe take a little bit more classes in the department.

I think it might sort of to open their eyes on, you know, how it is super interesting to learn about. I think it goes a lot to what we were talking before, both in terms of like STEM being highly recognized, and power dynamics,

you know, just being in the humanities, lack of funding, think about work opportunities and maybe not having those career path as clear as, you know, if majoring, I don't know, engineer, you know that you're very likely we will have certain

types of jobs. So it probably starts much earlier in, like, earlier on when we are in the educational system and just giving the emphasis to humanities and like things other...

And I think that's why I, like, always like the idea of not a STEM, but a STEAM with the A of incorporating the arts. I like that. To all of your other subjects and thinking more holistically.

So maybe I think it's just an overall issue that comes with this whole power relations that we currently have and just maybe people not being as interest and not as valued either because in terms of payment and... Yeah, yeah, touching on that as

well. I feel like we do live in a capitalist society that does place more value on on STEM because STEM helps the economy a little bit more than, I suppose, the humanities.

But it's like I said, it's, like, a balance really would prove beneficial for society because we all can't be that kind of, or go into that kind of work. It just devalues the work field that you would be going

into. I mean, we can even see, like, in like the tech field in California. I live in California for a little bit.

It's crazy competition over there. And it's like, I have, I feel bad for all my, like, my computer science friends. I'm like, good luck.

But it's like, it's really recognizing the society that we live in is inherently capitalistic. That does not place monetary value on the humanities, especially women's studies.

So seeing that sort of juxtaposition between that and then not having as many women's studies minors, majors graduates, I can see why that is. Yeah.

And I feel that overall our society, we keep following like innovation so much, like, to the point, you know, like, I don't know, I can't understand this whole like fascination about space and wanting to go to space and thinking...

But, like, those things, like I said, is the capitalist, is the competition is probably a lot of also, like, sexism in terms of, like, man trying to prove and... Oh yeah, the domination kind of... Yeah.

When I think that we have so much to address. Like, how can we think about going to the space when we have so many people still not having things to eat every meal every day?

Those... It's like so many millionaires can and billionaires can see space as their playground. And it's like, yeah, I mean, sure, it is an accomplishment, but also it's money that, yeah, it's money that could have

been really given to help people here on Earth that live on Earth. So I've never truly understood that either. And I wish that there was more emphasis on charity and

charitable works, especially for for women around the globe, especially women in developing countries as the countries that they're living in are continuing to be exploited. So, yeah.

And issues with security and violence that, you know, when people lack so much of basic life conditions, it's hard to see, like, those billionaire achievements as the actual achievements.

Yeah. And, like, just understand this whole ideas or so much value that we put in certain areas and not others. Right, right.

Yeah. And more balance as well, right. It's really great. Yeah.

And then I guess lastly, finally, like, I guess, any takeaways from the women's studies department, if you could do it all again, would you still try and do it all again with your graduate degree and not saying that you would go back

and, like, back in time, and would you want to relive the time that you spent for the graduate degree with women's studies? Yes, absolutely.

Like I said, I think it has exposed me to a lot of different things and people and perspectives and it just opened my mind so much and I feel very grateful. I would do it again, and I would recommend to. It just brought

perspective to my life that I wasn't expecting or, I don't know what's the word, but yes, it was. It was not an easy experience. There are barriers, like, I work full time, and language, but

it was definitely worth it. OK, well, I'm really glad to hear that. And I also want to say as well, thank you Grazi for taking the time to speak with me, meet with me.

A lot of the conversation that we had today really have been impactful for me. And like I said, I'm not really a women studies major, but I am an International Studies major and there's always a lot of interlap

between women studies, politics, like you were saying, and all that. So I'm super interested in this field as well. So a lot of these conversations I will be thinking about as well,

a lot, and I'm trying to research more about it as well. So I do want to say thank you as well for meeting with me today. Yeah, it was great meeting you, and yeah, I hope we continue in touch if you ever need anything, I'm available.

Yes, and good luck with the project and with your major. All right, well, thank you so much again. And I hope you have a great rest of your day and a great holiday season, you and your family.

I hope you all stay well. And thank you again. Yes, for you too. All right, well, thank you.

Thank you. All right, bye. Bye. Bye.