Interview with Elizabeth Carpenter

Speaker 1: Elizabeth Carpenter graduated from Earlham College with a bachelor's degree in elementary education. Speaker 1: Mrs. Carpenter taught in a variety of educational settings before coming to Towson State College in 1969 as a teacher at Lida Lee Tall, and then as a faculty member in the Department of Early Childhood Education. These are her reflections. Karen Blair: Mrs. Carpenter, thank you for sharing with us your thoughts about your teacher preparation and your subsequent career in education. You are helping us enrich our understanding of teacher education at Towson University, and this will add greatly to our story. Karen Blair: I think a good place to begin is in the beginning. So would you share with us your early social context, where you grew up,

Karen Blair: what you were thinking as you got older in terms of possible further education or career? Elizabeth Carpenter: OK, well, I was born on the second floor of 1413 Decatur Street in Locust Point and lived there until I left the house to be married when I was 26 years old. So the community was very, very much a part of my entire life. Elizabeth Carpenter: At that point, the community was, I would say at least 70 or more percent foreign born and first generation. So all the children I went to school with, almost all of them were children whose parents spoke in another language other than English, Elizabeth Carpenter: and who went to what was a very unusual school, which I wish I had time to talk about it at some point. It was what in the 1970s was being looked at as a Community School and a Community Center,

Elizabeth Carpenter: and here it was back in the early 1930s that Persis K. Miller, who I'm sure was a Towson grad, had established that kind of a community school. My point is that the mixture, the ethnic mixture, Elizabeth Carpenter: and the guidance of that wonderful, wonderful principal, was quite unique and unusual. And Mrs. Miller, Miss Miller, she was, expected all of us to go just as far as we could. And she set no limits for us. Elizabeth Carpenter: But since the families were large and the communities’ expectations in terms of you know, how can I, an immigrant, come to this country and expect that my child's going to become a doctor… If he gets through high school, that would be wonderful. Elizabeth Carpenter: And so we all aimed for high school, and many of us didn't make it. Many of us did, and went beyond high school,

Elizabeth Carpenter: but the community itself was a wonderful community to grow up in, and it was a community that really, despite the fact that many, many families drew their children out of school as soon as they were 14 years of age so that they could go to work and help raise younger brothers and sisters, Elizabeth Carpenter: there still was a love of learning, and a respect for education, and a respect for the community and teachers in the community that I've never found anywhere else, which is remarkable. Remarkable. Karen Blair: So here you are in high school, and having the opportunity to complete high school. How is it possible that you found a way to go on to college? Elizabeth Carpenter: Well, you know from…

Elizabeth Carpenter: Let me just say, I think we all believe that dancers and athletes and artists are born. I truly believe teachers are born too. You're born wanting to teach. Elizabeth Carpenter: And the respect that I had for that school and the teachers, and my father and mother’s love of learning and education, even though they though they did not think that I'd go beyond high school, was such that I knew, I think, from day one that I wanted to be a teacher. Elizabeth Carpenter: If I played with dolls, it was only to use them as students. Karen Blair: Right.

Elizabeth Carpenter: They weren't babies. They were students to me. And so I wanted it all my life, Elizabeth Carpenter: and when I was ready for high school, another friend and I petitioned the Baltimore school system to let us go to Eastern High School rather than Southern, which was our local school, and it was almost unheard of to have anyone go out of their school district. Elizabeth Carpenter: But the school system allowed us to go to Eastern High School because they had an academic program there, and they didn't have one at southern. So my friend Anna Melissa went into nursing and I kept on working toward… I knew I was going to teach somewhere, somehow, someday I would teach. But when I graduated, it was during the war years, Elizabeth Carpenter: and I got a job as a draftsman assistant for the Baltimore Gas and Electric Company.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And I pinched pennies and put away everything that I could and by the third year after high school, I couldn't stand it any longer. I had to go learn to be a teacher. And so I took my money and I asked my church for a loan of some kind. Elizabeth Carpenter: It was very small, but they gave me a little bit, and when I put it all together I had enough for one semester, and I went off and I was able to get enough work at school to see me through, and enough scholarship then, that I was able to get through those four years, four happiest years of my life. Karen Blair: And where did you go? Elizabeth Carpenter: I went to Earlham College in Richmond Indiana, it’s a small Quaker liberal arts college.

Karen Blair: And did they have a teacher prep program? Elizabeth Carpenter: A very, very small program. Actually, there was one teacher in the entire teacher prep program, but he was a wonderful man and a fine, fine teacher, and it was a good program. Elizabeth Carpenter: And in Indiana at that time, instead of having one term of student teaching as we have here at Towson, we had a whole year of student teaching. Karen Blair: Interestingly, I think most programs now here at Towson, at least K through 8th, put students in schools for a whole year.

Elizabeth Carpenter: Great. I'm glad to hear that, I think It's wonderful. Karen Blair: But isn't it interesting, though, that you found this, way before Towson committed to doing it. That's very interesting. Karen Blair: And so what kinds of experiences did you have as part of your preparation in school? I mean, did you just observe initially or… Elizabeth Carpenter: Actually, we didn't. We just were dumped into student teaching, but again, it was a small enough program, and a small enough consortium of students, and with that wonderful instructor that we had, we spent a lot of time

Elizabeth Carpenter: after class hours in the library, there was a room set aside where people could just sit and hang out and talk. And we had a number of seminars and things of that kind that we did on our own, sharing experiences. And I did a lot of babysitting. Does that count? Elizabeth Carpenter: No, believe it or not, I had always wanted to teach history in high school, and my degree is in secondary ed, really. Karen Blair: I didn't know that. Elizabeth Carpenter: Yes, and it was when I had my own children that I realized where the real action was,

Elizabeth Carpenter: where I really wanted to be. I mean, I just, I find, have always found five year olds to be far more intellectually stimulating than most of my college students. Not all of them, most of them. Karen Blair: So you completed this degree, and did you then come home to Baltimore? Elizabeth Carpenter: Yes, I came home to Baltimore and I applied for my teaching certificate, Elizabeth Carpenter: and found I was short a couple of courses, and I can't really remember right now exactly what they were. One of them was Maryland history.

Karen Blair: Of course. Elizabeth Carpenter: But anyhow, that was not an obstacle that I couldn't have overcome very easily, Elizabeth Carpenter: but it was 1949, the post war years, and we were still struggling with McCarthyism in this country. Elizabeth Carpenter: And I found that the Maryland legislature had passed a bill saying no one can teach in the schools of Maryland who had any kind of communist affiliations, and they needed to sign a statement to that effect.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And I have no communist leanings. They'd find me too difficult to work with, I think. Elizabeth Carpenter: But I did have some strong reservations, conscience reservations, about signing a statement, having to sign that statement. Elizabeth Carpenter: And believe me, it was a struggle. I'd waited all this time, but I couldn't do it. Elizabeth Carpenter: So I couldn't teach.

Karen Blair: So what did you do as an alternative? Elizabeth Carpenter: Well, I had a strong sociology background, Elizabeth Carpenter: and I went to work for the YWCA as a social worker, and worked there for four years, I guess, Elizabeth Carpenter: and then married and then had my own children,

Elizabeth Carpenter: and became very much interested in early childhood education and started taking courses here at night. Elizabeth Carpenter: And then my first job was I was hired by the Mount Washington parent cooperative, Elizabeth Carpenter: so parent cooperatives were just beginning to be become resources for parents, Elizabeth Carpenter: and I became fascinated by the thought of working closely with parents and young children all at the same time. So I became involved in that, and I was hired as a teacher at Mount Washington Co-op, and then moved from there steadily into the early childhood programs.

Karen Blair: And how old were your children when you started that? Elizabeth Carpenter: Oh, let me think. Karen Blair: But they weren't- Were they of the age that they would participate in that Co-op? Were they part of that too? Elizabeth Carpenter: Well, yes, I participated in a Co-op when my oldest son was four years old, and then that was at the point where I was beginning to take early childhood courses and try them out on him.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And then when my second child, who was about three years old, Elizabeth Carpenter: I went to work part time at Friends School to help bring some funds into the family, and my mom took care of the- Well, the oldest was in school already, the younger one was three years old and mom took him. It was only two days a week. Elizabeth Carpenter: And then after that, I moved more and more into teaching longer periods of time. Karen Blair: And were you still with Friends School at that point, or the cooperative, when you…

Elizabeth Carpenter: I was with all. Karen Blair: I see, you're involved in a variety of different education settings. Elizabeth Carpenter: Right. Yeah, very much so. But all of them, primarily… I had a strong interest in parent interaction with children and training parents with children. Elizabeth Carpenter: But I would have taken the little kids without parents, too. They were wonderful. I miss them dreadfully.

Karen Blair: Well, I don't know. As we were talking earlier, maybe there are some greats in the future someplace. Elizabeth Carpenter: Well, I don't bend over so- Or as one kindergartener once told me, you bend over fine. Mrs. Carpenter, it's getting up that's hard for you. Karen Blair: They're very candid, aren't they, 5 year olds? Elizabeth Carpenter: Indeed. Indeed.

Karen Blair: Absolutely. So you had taken some coursework at Towson, but you hadn't done any work-related things with the university yet. And how did that come to pass? Elizabeth Carpenter: Oh, that was… Elizabeth Carpenter: It seems I kind of back into so much stuff, don’t I? While I was working with the parent cooperatives, I met two wonderful women who were members of the Towson Unitarian Church, Elizabeth Carpenter: who were very much interested in the East Towson community, and at that point, all of the children from East Towson were going to the black school in the community. And if they were lucky enough somehow to be integrated into the local public elementary school,

Elizabeth Carpenter: they invariably ended up as special ed children, they were almost from the time they walked into the school door, they were placed into… In those days, they weren't really special ed classes. They were the classes for the slow runners or the… Whatever they called them in those days. Elizabeth Carpenter: But anyhow, through these women I became very much interested in that community, and at the same time it happened that we were just now beginning to look to head start as a possibility for helping these youngsters to learn better and earlier, Elizabeth Carpenter: and so the two ladies and I wrote a grant for one of the first, if not the first, full day head start community organization grant in the country, and we got it. Elizabeth Carpenter: And now I’d backed myself into a situation where we had to find a place to have a school, and we had to find teachers, and we had to find children.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And I can remember walking around through the community and seeing a child who looked as if he was five years old and following him home, Elizabeth Carpenter: and knocking on the door. And the other ladies were doing the same thing, and we got our group together. Elizabeth Carpenter: And it's a long, involved story, isn't it? Karen Blair: It's a very interesting story.

Elizabeth Carpenter: Parallel to that, Dr. Kerr had just come to Towson, and he had gotten a grant for Towson to train a group of head start teachers, Elizabeth Carpenter: one of the first training programs in the country. Karen Blair: And so he was a member of the early Childhood Education Department faculty. Elizabeth Carpenter: Yes, he was, I believe at that time he was already chair of the department.

Elizabeth Carpenter: But he had the teachers and I had the children, and his teachers needed to see children. Elizabeth Carpenter: So we met and we agreed that he would bring his teachers to see Head Start children in action. Unfortunately, the calendar was such that he had to bring his teachers the very first day that I was going to be teaching the children, and we were in the basement of the Community Church, Elizabeth Carpenter: which was not the best kind of a situation for a classroom. Elizabeth Carpenter: And so, you know, shortly after school began in the morning, in came Dr. Kerr with his twenty teachers who sat around the perimeter of the room while these children all stared at them, but were too polite to say anything about, who are they?

Karen Blair: So the majority of these children were African American. Elizabeth Carpenter: They were all African American. Karen Blair: And I imagine the majority of students coming in with Dr. Kerr were Caucasian. Elizabeth Carpenter: Possibly half and half.

Elizabeth Carpenter: Dr. Kerr was one of the pioneers in training teachers in head start who had a similar background to the children they were going to teach, Elizabeth Carpenter: so that they could understand what these children dealt with in their lives at home. Elizabeth Carpenter: So it was a piece of each. Where they came from, I don't know. I have no idea. Karen Blair: Uh-huh.

Karen Blair: Because that certainly wouldn't have been the profile of most of the students at Towson University at the time. Elizabeth Carpenter: I don't think any of them were students at Towson University. I believe it was a government grant and I think he had people coming from perhaps the entire East Coast. I don't know, I don't remember, but. Karen Blair: But you survived. Elizabeth Carpenter: We all survived. We made it and the program went on. I then took the role of director of the program and there we had a three teachers, for three, four, and five year olds and we had three,

Elizabeth Carpenter: from the community, parents who had, I don't think any one of them had anything more than an elementary education. Elizabeth Carpenter: But I'm so happy and proud to be able to say that one of those women, Elizabeth Carpenter: who had been a mother at age 14, when she was with us, she was, I think, about 19, went on to get her degree in early childhood education. She was the director of Homewood Friends Daycare and went on from there to several other directorships and daycare positions. Elizabeth Carpenter: It was wonderful. It was really, really wonderful.

Karen Blair: And so how long did you do that? Elizabeth Carpenter: Well, let's see. I stayed as director for two years. Elizabeth Carpenter: And during that time I was in contact with Dr. Kerr through his training programs. He would send folks over to observe what was going on. Elizabeth Carpenter: And then in 1969, I guess it was, after my third year as director, I felt strongly it was time for the community to take over the program.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And so while I was thinking about that, Dr. Kerr was also needing someone to teach part time here. So I started teaching one night a week, evening course. And the year after that first year of teaching evenings, Elizabeth Carpenter: the Lida Lee Tall position in kindergarten opened up, and Dr. Kerr asked if I would consider doing a split position, half Lida Lee Tall and half Towson, so I was delighted to do it, Elizabeth Carpenter: and that's how I came to Lida Lee Tall. Karen Blair: Tell us a little bit about Lida Lee Tall.

Elizabeth Carpenter: Lida Lee Tall, I described it as heaven on earth sometimes. It wasn't always, when you had to get up in the morning and go. Karen Blair: I'm sure. Elizabeth Carpenter: But you know, Karen, when I was teaching at Towson, and so many of the students that I had were seniors, Elizabeth Carpenter: and so many of them were actually graduate students, and always on the last day of school I would say, you know, the very best I can wish for you is that you will be as happy in your work as I have been in mine. I didn't get up every morning saying yippee, you know, going there,

Elizabeth Carpenter: but the good days so far outweighed the bad ones that I don't remember bad ones. I remember only good ones. And I and miss it very, very much. But when I came to Lida Lee Tall, Elizabeth Carpenter: the feeling of caring for the children that I found in the faculty, and the faculty’s care for one another was just something that you couldn't find very many places, Elizabeth Carpenter: and the freedom to try what you thought would work best for your children was there always. I don't remember ever, ever having an administrator say to me, no, you can't do that. Elizabeth Carpenter: I was asked why, and sometimes I could explain. Sometimes I couldn't explain.

Elizabeth Carpenter: But there was that, and, well, of course the building to me was just heaven. We had, the first year in particular, we must have been going through some sort of boom at Towson University because there wasn't anything that I asked for in the way of equipment or materials that oh, sure. Elizabeth Carpenter: Go ahead and buy it. Go, sure. Elizabeth Carpenter: And it's never happened again since then. Elizabeth Carpenter: And then also, I liked the idea of, while I had worked with aides before in my teaching, I liked the idea of being able to hire aides who were students at the at the university. At that time, I don't recall, if it happened I wasn't aware of it,

Elizabeth Carpenter: but I don't think there had ever been any hired aides in at Lida Lee Tall School who were also in the university program. And so I really had, it was such fun. Elizabeth Carpenter: During the 12 years that I was there I had the opportunity to have three young men, which was a first, also, I think, in kindergarten, three young men come and be aides in the program, and they were fantastic. They were really great. One was an art major. One was a psych major. And one was an education major. Elizabeth Carpenter: And of course, the little boys adored them. The girls did too. And they were wonderful help. They were fantastic. One of them, I recall, I had a young student who was the son of Dr. Mitchell in the art department. And this little boy had to come to… Elizabeth Carpenter: Am I supposed to name our children or not? Is it OK? This youngster came to school in the morning with his dad. So he was there before the other kids were there. And what to do with Chris? And so my aide was fascinated by Chris because he was such a bright youngster.

Elizabeth Carpenter: He said, I'll come in early and watch him and be with him until, you know, school's ready to begin, and he and Chris had a chess game, that they got started in kindergarten, that lasted the entire year. Every morning they played that chess game. Elizabeth Carpenter: And God help anybody who touched that chess board in between. But it was that kind of thing that made the school special, Elizabeth Carpenter: and the students coming in. I just was sorry that I didn't have more time at that point to spend with the college students who are coming in to observe. It was, you know, they were in and out. Karen Blair: Right.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And when they were gone, since I still had to stay with the children, I couldn't leave the children to, you know, sit and talk with them. Elizabeth Carpenter: I often wondered, well, what did they think when so and so did this, and what did they think when I did this, you know, Elizabeth Carpenter: and there wasn't quite enough time for that, which was a shame. Elizabeth Carpenter: But at the beginning we had a lot more students from Towson than we did toward the end of my time there.

Karen Blair: There's… It seems as though towards the end there was a greater emphasis on research related projects. Was that so? Elizabeth Carpenter: That was it. And then there were… Elizabeth Carpenter: Interestingly enough, and strangely enough, I guess, so many of the students who were education majors wanted to go back to their own elementary school to do their student teaching. I guess that speaks well of the elementary schools, you know, and I would have wanted the same thing. Karen Blair: Of course, I assume that their first grade teacher, even if she were still there, it wouldn't be quite the same, all those many years later.

Elizabeth Carpenter: But still there is that sense of belonging, and I had such a good time here, and all this that goes into it. Karen Blair: Uh-huh. Elizabeth Carpenter: But so many of the students wanted to go back to their own school, Elizabeth Carpenter: or into the district or county where they wanted to go teach then, and Towson acquiesced and tried to help them in every way that they could, and so many, many of the students were, you know,

Elizabeth Carpenter: those of us who were doing student teaching supervision were going to down beyond Annapolis and out beyond Fallston and all over the place to accommodate these students who wanted to do their student teaching, Elizabeth Carpenter: in the community where they wanted to teach, which showed wisdom on their part. I'm not sure how smart we were. Karen Blair: So Lida Lee Tall came to a close. Karen Blair: Not without great effort on many people's part…

Elizabeth Carpenter: Oh my, yes. Karen Blair: To keep the school open. Elizabeth Carpenter: In my head I can see so many things that a Lida Lee Tall School could be doing now, or could have been doing in the last 15, 20 years. I mean, the integration of Latinos into our population has been a real struggle for those folks, Elizabeth Carpenter: and I think we could have done an awful lot in terms of teaching children with a different background, of working with families of these children

Elizabeth Carpenter: and helping them to understand some of the craziness of our country and our culture. I think of children now who are the subject of so much anxiety. Elizabeth Carpenter: The children who fit along that long spectrum of autism, which still is not understood, and there's so many different kinds and nuances to that particular illness, if that is what it is, Elizabeth Carpenter: that are affected by education and by teachers, places where we could really be doing an awful lot of work, and it's a tremendous loss, it's a tremendous loss. Elizabeth Carpenter: But there it is.

Karen Blair: So when Lida Lee Tall closed, you became a full time member, then of the Department of Early Childhood. Karen Blair: And what kinds of things did you do in that role? Well, it sounds like you did some supervision of student teachers. Elizabeth Carpenter: Supervision of student teachers, and I became, under Dr. Marilyn Lewis's administration, when she was the chairperson, Elizabeth Carpenter: we were moving into the beginnings of special ed law,

Elizabeth Carpenter: and special ed programs, and Dr. Lewis asked if I would be willing to try to work with her and set up a special ed, not a program. We weren't thinking special ed program at all, but simply a course in special education, Elizabeth Carpenter: and with her guidance I set up the first early introduction to special education course, which then became a required course for anyone throughout, not just early childhood, but students who came from elementary and secondary ed and graduate students, and it became the required course Elizabeth Carpenter: that everyone had to take before they could go out into teaching, and at the same time the State Department of Education and the Attorney General's office Elizabeth Carpenter: were setting up a system for reviewing cases where the school system and parents of children were not in agreement concerning the either the programs or the placement for their children,

Elizabeth Carpenter: and federal and state laws decreed that there would be adjudicators who would listen to the cases and make decisions. Elizabeth Carpenter: And I was lucky enough to be accepted into the training program. And so after I received the training, I became what was called an impartial hearing officer for the state of Maryland. Elizabeth Carpenter: And I was asked to adjudicate in situations where there was a difference between the school system and a set of parents or a parent, and it was… Elizabeth Carpenter: I heard cases all over the state at that point, which was also fascinating, and then the hearing officer had to hear the case impartially and make a decision, and the decisions were always written decisions which then went on and they could be appealed.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And so far as I know, I'm I don't think a single one of my cases was appealed. Elizabeth Carpenter: How about that? Elizabeth Carpenter: But I don't know, there may have been appeals. Karen Blair: And were you doing that at the same time you were still in the department?

Elizabeth Carpenter: I yes, I was. It was, you know, I never, ever took time away from a class to do this. Elizabeth Carpenter: I always assign- You know from teaching, there were some times we didn't have Tuesday or Thursday classes or what have you. That didn't mean we didn't have anything to do. As you know, there was always plenty to do. But I could accept assignments on those days so that I would not be neglecting my teaching. Karen Blair: Uh huh. Elizabeth Carpenter: But I hope it was a service. I hope that it did some good in the end.

Karen Blair: Well, did you get to share what you were learning and your training with… Elizabeth Carpenter: Well, I was still teaching special education, and a number of the cases that that I heard were very pertinent to what was being taught. For instance, if the case had to do with an inappropriate placement, the parents wanted a child at one place and the school wanted the child in another place. Elizabeth Carpenter: The placement focused around the services for the child, so often what the school or the parents were asking for was so inappropriate for that particular condition that the child had Elizabeth Carpenter: that it was pretty clear where that child should be, and if that was the case, I would sometimes share the case in class and ask the students,

Elizabeth Carpenter: Now, you know, what would your decision be? Why would you think that child should be here or there? But never in any way that identified the schools or the children or the families in any way. Elizabeth Carpenter: But I felt it gave some authenticity to the teaching, and practicality. And as teachers going out into the school system, Elizabeth Carpenter: who were in a position to perhaps have the school very embarrassed by inappropriate placement or teaching, I thought it was important for the students here to know some of that. Karen Blair: Because the chances would be good that at some point they would be sitting on a team, a school team that would make those kinds of decisions or be responsible for implementing those decisions.

Elizabeth Carpenter: Right. And also I thought, you know, with any of them, Elizabeth Carpenter: and surely they were all of them, I would think, at some point or other involved in a special ed decision concerning the child, the school system very very often produced as witnesses classroom teachers. Elizabeth Carpenter: And I just felt it was important for them to know what they would be facing if they were in that position. Elizabeth Carpenter: So, whether it worked or not, I don't know. I hope. I hope.

Karen Blair: Well, now we have a special education major. Now we have a special ed, elementary ed combined major. And now we have a special ed, early childhood combined major so… Well, and I think some of that early work that you did really, sort of, facilitated, if you will, our understanding of the need. Elizabeth Carpenter: Well, I did make myself very unpopular at the school with my colleagues. Kindly unpopular, no one was ever unkind. But I don't think that, for some years, some of my colleagues understood that I wasn't just… Elizabeth Carpenter: Well, how to put this? Elizabeth Carpenter: The best way, I can tell you a story about Dr. Norma Hauserman, who was our school psychologist.

Karen Blair: At Lida Lee Tall. Elizabeth Carpenter: At Lida Lee Tall. Norma took me by the hand one day and said Liz, come sit down, I want to tell you something. I said, yes, and she said, I'm going to tell you what's wrong with you. And I said, oh, good. I thought, man, some people pay a lot of money for this. Elizabeth Carpenter: And she said, you never grew up. Elizabeth Carpenter: And I said, well, maybe you're right. Maybe I never grew up. How do you know that? She said, well, you think the world should be fair, and it isn’t.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And I thought a minute. And I thought, she's absolutely right. My father told me to be fair, the world should be fair. And I got up to leave. And she said, wait a minute. I'm not finished with you. And I sat down again. Elizabeth Carpenter: And she said to me, it's not just that you think the world should be fair, you’re driving us crazy trying to make it fair. Elizabeth Carpenter: I said yes. You’re right. Elizabeth Carpenter: And what she meant was I was so anxious that Lida Lee Tall move forward, and set an example,

Elizabeth Carpenter: and start to gain information about mainstreaming children, and I wanted children to be mainstreamed at Lida Lee Tall, and the faculty, and I'm sure rightly so in many respects, said, we are not set up for that. Elizabeth Carpenter: We can't do that. They were concerned mostly, I think, about the parents, and whether the parents would object to having these children come in. Elizabeth Carpenter: And so I guess I as my daughter-in-law said about my grandson one time, I was ramming around trying to convince my colleagues that we ought to do this. Elizabeth Carpenter: And so I did, I'm sure, make a real pain in the neck to some of them trying to convince them to do this. But while we were there, I was able to, in my summer program, include a little girl. The first little physically disabled child that I know of who came to Lida Lee Tall.

Elizabeth Carpenter: She came into the summer program. Elizabeth Carpenter: And we had a little red wagon. She had spina bifida and could not- And had braces. And we had a little red wagon and wherever the class went, Alicia went with us because the kids insisted. And they fought to be the person to pull her wagon. Elizabeth Carpenter: And all the children learned how to lock and unlock her braces so when she wanted to sit down they could do that for her. Elizabeth Carpenter: And then at just about the same time, Dr. Norma Hauserman was working with children who were placed away from their homes in group situation, institutional situation, that was.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And she wanted to bring some of those children to Lida Lee Tall, because her feeling was that these children saw only what she called yucky behaviors around them all the time. And if they saw appropriate behaviors being modeled for them by other children, Elizabeth Carpenter: that it would make a difference, and again, it was a tough fight, but finally she convinced the administration and the faculty, and parents I'm sure, to allow her to bring some of these children to Lida Lee Tall, and for a couple of semesters, Elizabeth Carpenter: there was a bus that pulled up every morning from that institution and the children were divided out among our classes, Elizabeth Carpenter: and we tried to see what could be done that way. Unfortunately, funding for the busing and all dropped out and the program came to an end. But I had one little child in my program. These children were all considerably older than kindergarten age, but this little boy,

Elizabeth Carpenter: I've often thought that he was probably very much abused in many, many ways at home and failed to thrive. He was very small for... I think he was 11 years old, but he was the size of my 5-year-old children, Elizabeth Carpenter: and very much five years rather than 11 years in his behaviors, and Joey came into our classroom and he loved wiping tables. I don't know where he learned to wipe tables, but Joey was the best table wiper and Elizabeth Carpenter: And he stayed for just less than a semester, half semester there, Elizabeth Carpenter: and Norma and we all decided it was time for him to go into first grade. He was ready to go. Well, Joey cried. The children cried. I cried. But it was best for him to go on to first grade. And so we told him, Joey, you know, you can always come see us,

Elizabeth Carpenter: and we're always interested in what you're doing. Well, we kept his locker for him and the children would poke little, Elizabeth Carpenter: some of them would save a cracker from their snack, or somebody would make a picture or somebody would pick up a caterpillar or what have you. You never knew what you were going to find in Joey's locker but for quite some time after he was moved, Joey, when the kids came down the ramp to go to lunch, Joey would peel off from the group. Elizabeth Carpenter: And he’d come in and he’d check that locker to know, you know, Elizabeth Carpenter: and I said the saddest day for me was when Joey didn't come to his locker anymore. He didn't need it anymore, and it was sad. Oh, it was wonderful. But it was sad. No Joey anymore. But he was a wonderful little boy. You know, wonder so what's happened to him, you know?

Karen Blair: So how long did that program end? Because Lida Lee Tall closed? Elizabeth Carpenter: No, no. It ended before Lida Lee Tall closed. It was a problem of funding with the buses, but they- The bus brought along not only the children, Elizabeth Carpenter: but some of these children's behaviors are really quite severe, and so each classroom where there was a child or two placed was also given an aide who came on the bus with the children. So you had the children, you had the bus, you had the aide. Karen Blair: Uh-huh.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And a couple of other staff members came along who were research persons for us, so we… Norma was very, very, you know, very knowledgeable in that field, Elizabeth Carpenter: and she knew that we would need resource people so that if a child for some reason was having difficulty in class, so that the teacher was able to remain, you know, on task, and to be there for the other children, she could call upon… Elizabeth Carpenter: And then the aide could either go get a resource person. or the aide could take the child out or, yeah, but we had resource persons there with whom we could speak, or who could take the children for us if we needed to. Elizabeth Carpenter: It was a wonderful program.

Karen Blair: Well, and, but very brave on the part of the Lida Lee Tall faculty to be willing to take this on. I mean, these were children who lived in a residential setting, which meant that they were not able to do well in a typical setting. Elizabeth Carpenter: Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. The faculty was, you know… Karen Blair: So that was the kids with enormous needs. Elizabeth Carpenter: Yeah, indeed, indeed. And they were, you know,

Elizabeth Carpenter: in many ways, maybe even totally, they were wiser than I, because I guess they knew their limitations at that point, Elizabeth Carpenter: and what had not been done, whereas I said, oh sure, we can do it. Yes, these kids need it. What do you mean we can't do it? We can do it. And so I guess the combination of the irritant that I was and their wisdom and years of experience that I hadn't had with the little children yet, Elizabeth Carpenter: came together, and sometimes there were sparks, but we loved each other dearly and I, you know, I still can't go past the new building that's there and look at it. I can't. And we still, some of us still meet. Karen Blair: Very nice, very nice.

Elizabeth Carpenter: Once a month. Once a year, in summer, we meet together, Karen Blair: That's wonderful. Elizabeth Carpenter: and laugh at one another's foibles, follow one another's children, Karen Blair: Uh-huh.

Elizabeth Carpenter: and talk about the children that we had. Karen Blair: And do you think that you saw some measure of progress, even though those kids were there such a brief time? I mean, was there anything to suggest that that theory that if you put them in a more typical setting… Karen Blair: That that's sort of… Elizabeth Carpenter: Without a doubt, without a doubt. And it was unfortunate. Well, we got the children too late in some respects. If we got to….

Karen Blair: You mean they were too old? Elizabeth Carpenter: They were along, too far along years. It would have taken more time, so that it was late in years and not really enough time Elizabeth Carpenter: to become a cohesive kind of program. Since we didn't know their families, we had no access to their families. I'm sure some of the children themselves didn't have access to their families. Elizabeth Carpenter: But if there could have been.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And I don't know how we would have fit it into our days, but if there could have been opportunities for our faculty to meet with the folks at the institution Elizabeth Carpenter: who were with them far more than we were, and to be able to make a cohesive program that way, so that, you know, with all of these children, with special needs, almost to us to the last one, Elizabeth Carpenter: consistency is a key. Elizabeth Carpenter: And I think that if we could have known how the staff responded to certain behaviors,

Elizabeth Carpenter: and we could have worked with them and done the same thing or said, oh, we don't think so. Could we try this? And so it could have been much more successful. Elizabeth Carpenter: Takes money. Karen Blair: Resources. Elizabeth Carpenter: I think there would have been time, I think the staff, the fact that they were at first so reticent…

Elizabeth Carpenter: Once the children were there, the faculty gave it their all. There's no question in my mind that all of my colleagues did everything for those children that they had done for any other child who was a Lida Lee Tall student. Elizabeth Carpenter: But there just wasn't the funding to continue it, which is so sad. So sad. Elizabeth Carpenter: But the girls were great. Elizabeth Carpenter: And let me just tell you one more thing, I think.

Karen Blair: OK. Elizabeth Carpenter: In teaching, in schools so often, I'm sure you've heard this Karen, you've heard a teacher say, what do they expect me to do with this kid? That teacher had him last year didn't do a damn thing. Elizabeth Carpenter: You heard that? Elizabeth Carpenter: I was so lucky with the teacher who had the children before me. She was such an outstanding teacher,

Elizabeth Carpenter: and so wonderful. Never once crossed my mind to think that I could blame her for anything that I wasn't able to do. Elizabeth Carpenter: Nor did the teacher that they go to, to my knowledge, ever say, what do you expect me to do? Elizabeth Carpenter: She didn’t do anything with them. Elizabeth Carpenter: I never heard that at Lida lee Tall. Never. You got the kids and it was your job and you didn't blame the person before you and the person after you didn't blame you,

Elizabeth Carpenter: which you don't find very often. That was really remarkable. We it is. It was really, really great. Karen Blair: So Lida Lee Tall closed and you did a little bit more teaching for Towson. Elizabeth Carpenter: Yes. And I think I'd still be teaching, Karen, if I could still keep it all together. Elizabeth Carpenter: I stopped only because my husband became very ill and I needed to be at home with him.

Elizabeth Carpenter: But while I miss all of my teaching, I miss the children the most. Lida Lee Tall, that I miss. Elizabeth Carpenter: More than anything I've ever missed in my life, really. Elizabeth Carpenter: They're special guys. All of them. All of them. Karen Blair: What would you say to someone, I mean, what wisdom would you give to individuals who are interested in a career in teaching?

Elizabeth Carpenter: I would say, for me, it was the most wonderful thing in the world. Elizabeth Carpenter: It can be the most wonderful thing in the world, and if it isn't? Elizabeth Carpenter: Don't do it. Elizabeth Carpenter: It's tremendous responsibility. You're shaping lives. You're affecting attitudes.

Elizabeth Carpenter: You touch families, you touch communities. Elizabeth Carpenter: It's a tremendous responsibility. Elizabeth Carpenter: And yet it can be such fun and so rewarding. It's hard, hard work. Elizabeth Carpenter: But you don't mind the hard work, I mean, it's all part of what you're doing. But don't do it if you don't… And as I say, I don't mean “yippee” every day. I mean just at the end of the day… The semester. Not even the day, a day’s too short a time. The end of the semester.

Elizabeth Carpenter: and your kids are going on to another group, Elizabeth Carpenter: if you don't cry a little bit, ‘cause those kids are going, then maybe you ought to reconsider teaching. Elizabeth Carpenter: But on the last day of school, Lida Lee Tall was a bummer. You've never seen so many crying women in your life. All of us. Elizabeth Carpenter: And we knew they were only going to the room next door, we’d be seeing them next year.

Karen Blair: But they weren't going to be yours. Elizabeth Carpenter: They weren't going to be yours anymore. Crazy, it’s crazy. We used to have some wonderful last day picnics too. Did any of the other folks you talked to tell you about the last picnic? Karen Blair: No, no. Tell us about that. Elizabeth Carpenter: Oh, the last day of school is always great fun. The faculty played the graduating 6th graders in softball.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And then we'd have… Karen Blair: And who usually won? Elizabeth Carpenter: The kids, of course! Elizabeth Carpenter: But we would have a half days school,

Elizabeth Carpenter: and the second half we would have our softball. We cleaned, cleaned our rooms, got everything done that needed to be done and straightened out for the next group of children who were going to be coming. Wasn't it nice when you came and the room was clean and pretty? Now let's get it ready for somebody else. Elizabeth Carpenter: We did all that. And then in the afternoon, parents came with dinner for the teachers. They brought dinner for the teachers, Karen Blair: Very nice. Elizabeth Carpenter: and they would watch the softball game and then we'd have dinner, and then we'd have our cry. And we'd all go home. Speaking of dinner, Karen, one of the nicest things that happened to me when I was teaching,

Elizabeth Carpenter: it must have been at the time when I was trying to do my training for impartial hearing officer Elizabeth Carpenter: and a couple other things. You know how sometimes your life gets crazy, and it was in the morning, one of the mothers who carpooled their children to school, lots of mothers did, and they almost always stopped and talked for a little bit. Elizabeth Carpenter: And one of the mothers came in to chat for a little bit and she said you look tired. I said, yeah, I am tired today. But I said I'll be fine, you know, as soon as the kids get here, and things will be great. So at lunch time, we had half day kindergarten and at lunch time when she came back to pick up the children, she had a basket with her Elizabeth Carpenter: And in the basket she had a pot of spaghetti sauce and a tossed salad,

Elizabeth Carpenter: a box of spaghetti, a loaf of bread, and a bottle of wine. And she had gone to the other mothers and said, you know, Liz is tired, and let's get dinner for her. And so they’d all pitched in. And when she came back here was the basket. Elizabeth Carpenter: Now where would that have happened? Where else could that happen? It was just fantastic. Elizabeth Carpenter: My family loved it, too. Yeah, that's another thing, too, about Lida Lee Tall. It was a school that involved the teachers’ families. Elizabeth Carpenter: My husband made more wooden wreaths for the kids to put nuts on, and all sorts of science and art projects, every year. All of our husbands were involved in stuff like that, and actually, on my street, the kids all collecting more trash than you can imagine,

Elizabeth Carpenter: to put in the basket that I kept on the back porch for Mrs. Carpenter's kindergarten. I mean, there would be, you know, empty baby food jars and egg crates and all kinds of stuff, Elizabeth Carpenter: because they're really dandy to use in kindergarten, and so all the community was throwing stuff into that. It was community. Elizabeth Carpenter: It was great. Karen Blair: Is there anything we missed?

Elizabeth Carpenter: How could there be? I didn't shut up the whole time. Karen Blair: It was wonderful. Elizabeth Carpenter: So now that's, you know, there's so much I would love to tell you about Lida Lee Tall, you know? Elizabeth Carpenter: It's special. It's special.

Elizabeth Carpenter: And there will never be another. Karen Blair : We don’t know that. Elizabeth Carpenter: I wish I could believe. I wish I could believe. Karen Blair: We can hope.

Elizabeth Carpenter: We can hope. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that, you know, the world hasn't come to an end. Elizabeth Carpenter: It's just an error. Elizabeth Carpenter: And I just wish we could see more of the children who were there. Elizabeth Carpenter: My son has a new friend who plays music with him on our back porch one night a week,

Elizabeth Carpenter: who is new to the group that has been meaning for quite a while. Elizabeth Carpenter: And when I went out to meet this young man, my son said to me, mom, this is my new friend Timmy Riggleman, and I looked at this 6 foot four huge man, I said, Timmy Riggleman, did you go to Lida Lee Tall kindergarten? He said, yeah, I did. Elizabeth Carpenter: And I said, I taught you, and he said, Oh, you're that Carpenter, and I said yes. And I said, after a while we chatted, Elizabeth Carpenter: and one day afterwards, I said to him, Timmy, what did you like about kindergarten and what didn't you like about it? He said, oh, he said, it was great, he says, I liked kindergarten, except you made me take a rest every day, and he had been a very active kid and he didn't like that rest period.

Elizabeth Carpenter: Little did they know I needed it. Karen Blair: As much as the kids. Elizabeth Carpenter: More, probably. Karen Blair: Well, thank you very much for doing this.

Elizabeth Carpenter: You're more than welcome, I'm sure. Karen, thank you for asking me.