- Title
- Interview with Dorothy Hardin
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- Identifier
- teohpHardin
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- Subjects
- ["Education, Secondary","Student teaching","Teaching","Alumni and alumnae","Education -- Study and teaching","Universities and colleges -- Faculty","Teachers","High schools"]
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- Description
- Dorothy Edel Hardin graduated from Towson State College in 1967 with a bachelor's degree in English with minors in Sociology and Secondary Education. Mrs. Hardin served the Baltimore County School System for almost 40 years, as a teacher, department chair, assistant principal and principal. In 2006, she returned to her alma mater as a lecturer in the Master of Arts in Teaching program. These are her reflections.
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- Date Created
- 27 February 2014
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- Format
- ["jpg","mp3","mp4","pdf"]
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- Language
- ["English"]
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- Collection Name
- ["Towson University Teacher Education Oral History Project"]
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Interview with Dorothy Hardin
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Karen Blair: Mrs. Hardin, it was so gracious of you to come in, and spend some time with us this afternoon, and share with us your preparation to become a teacher here at Towson University, and your subsequent career in education. This will add considerably to our broader understanding of the evolution of teacher education at Towson across time. I guess a good place to begin is in the beginning, so if you would, would you share with us a little bit about your early social context: where you grew up, what kind of career thoughts you were having as you went through school, and how you made the decision to consider teaching, and come to Towson.
Dorothy Hardin: Thank you, Karen, for allowing me to tell my story, and I hope it is a benefit to others, and certainly, it was interesting revisiting the past, a little bit, looking over my life as an educator. And, I actually began educating before I even knew exactly what teaching was. I can tell you that I’ve looked back on pictures of me, of my parents--that my parents had, and evidently I was teaching my little friends at age four. And I didn’t really know what a teacher was, but it was something I’d seen, I guess on the early vestiges of TV, and there I was, with them. And my parents were very proud that I was interested in that field, because, in my father’s family, at least, there was an educator who was actually born at the time of the civil war, and she ended up being an elementary principal in Baltimore City at a time when that was not done.
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: And so there must’ve been some genetic material floating around! And, so I really was interested in teaching, early on, and then within the context of the community I grew up in, Parkville, and it was a kind of middle-class community. Many of the families had parents who commuted to Sparrow’s Point Shipyard, or the steel mill, and so my father was one of those.
And we were all sort of homogenized into a group of young kids who were like, post-WWII. Many of us, my graduating class at Parkville, was 690, I believe.
K.B.: Oh my heavens.
D.H.: So we actually had school in shifts and we did two graduations.
K.B.: Huh!
D.H.: And so, my context at Parkville was very much a post-WWII kind of Boom Generation. And education was something really important, because there were many more of us to follow. And, so, when I was in school, I heard a lot about, you know, teaching, this would be really good.
So I was into it early on, but then it kept focusing, from what I was hearing from my own teachers. And I had wonderful teachers in my background, who I wanted to emulate . . . Jean Kuhlman, who became Head of English in Baltimore County Public Schools, Mr. Osborne, I think his first name was Cliff, he became head of Social Studies . . . so I had people who really kind of captured my interest. So, as far as social context, it’s really a combination of many factors, maybe genetic, the fact there were many of us, and someone had to teach them, and that was something I had an affinity towards, and then also having role models, which was really critical, who mentored me. And there were Future Teachers of America organizations at that time, I think now it’s FEA [Future Educators of America], I think it’s evolved, but that was really touted. It was a very popular club! So, it was like, “Woo, social context!” I mean, there we are! And there were, you know, boys in it, and my fellow girlfriends, and so--really teaching, from the first--probably when I popped out of the womb. It was probably in there, and then it just began being fashioned, and maybe shined, over the years, with new facets.
K.B.: So at some point, in high school, I assume, you decided to come to what was Towson State Teacher’s College?
D.H.: Uh huh. My first year, it was, and then it evolved mid-year into Towson State College.
K.B.: And why did you make that choice?
D.H.: It was the place to go to be a teacher. The reputation at that time was very, very excellent, and I had other friends who were interested in teaching, and they had much more money in their families than my family did. But they went to Towson too, because it was the place to be if you were going to be a teacher. And what the reputation was, it was very interesting, I don’t know that it’s still true, but it may be--there were a lot of young faculty members who actually were beginning their first tenure in a professorial role. And eventually, three of my freshman teachers, I don’t remember their names, but they all went to Ivy schools to teach after a couple of years at Towson. So, I really had an interesting mélange of people that were appealing to me, and I’d heard it from others who graduated from Parkville, and were at Towson. So, they would come back and talk to us, and I thought, “This is where I have to go.” Plus, there was that deal, which was very, very favorable to my family’s situation, where there was not--I was probably on the lower-middle class echelon, and my parents needed some support. So, if I offered to teach for two years, and I knew it would be much longer than that, then I would have my tuition paid! So it was a great deal, I mean I really didn’t--I’m not like a lot of students today, and I help students prepare for college now, kind of in a volunteer role, and they’ll apply to 15 schools! You know, and for me, there is like--I researched it for whatever I could research at the time, and there was only one place. And this was it.
K.B.: So tell us about your early experience here. Now, you were not a resident student. You were . . .
D.H.: No, I was a day-hop.
K.B.: And that’s an interesting term!
D.H.: Uh huh.
K.B.: So then you just hopped in for your coursework, and then you were gone.
D.H.: Exactly.
K.B.: That’s a different perspective, I’m sure, than those who lived on campus.
D.H.: Very much so. And it was good for me, my parents were very liberal as far as, you know, me living at home, and they were always into cultural things, and they were both great readers, so I was excited about . . . I mean, I would go home and talk to them when I finished talking in the student union, it was a very tiny one, not palatial, as it is now, but I loved, you know, I had two experiences. When they talk about rehearsal, you know, for plays, and so on, I was constantly rehearsing information from my experience with students and teachers here, and professors, and then at home with my parents I would talk about it more, and I think it really helped me to internalize my learning. I didn’t feel like I was missing very much, because I was happy, you know, for my mother to still wash my clothes, she was happy to do it! So I really didn’t have to deal with certain realities, which was fine for me, and it worked for me. But you know, it was a great experience, you know, to be a day-hop, and I hear all the time, “Well, you must live on the campus to have the experience.” Well, I had an experience, and it was an experience where I was able, actually, I felt, to have more freedom, when I wasn’t dealing with reality. And my mother was! I was able to go to the BMA [Baltimore Museum of Art].
K.B.: Sure.
D.H.: And to go to concerts, and things, because I didn’t have to worry about that. It sounds like I was a little princess, you know, and I was, in my way, I guess you could say.
K.B.: So you’re at Towson, you’re taking your general education requirements, and getting ready to, sort of, I guess, go into some education courses. And there’s a point in that career at Towson where you’re not certain anymore, whether this is the thing for you. Could you tell us about that?
D.H.: Yes, I actually had two time periods when I wasn’t certain. This person who genetically was impelled, maybe, to be an educator, and one was the year after, or the summer after I graduated from Parkville High School. And I worked at Hecht Company, in Northwood, in women’s fashion. I’ve always been a fashionista type, and so it was like, “This is really exciting!” And then, I realized that it would not include college. And that--I knew I had to do that. So, that went away, and I go to college, and I finish my first year, and essentially, I go to work in the summer at a place called Alexander & Alexander Insurance Brokerage. It was a very exciting environment at that time! We’re talking late, you know, mid-60’s, into that period, and they are the company . . . and they are now in Owings Mills, they used to be on North Charles Street. They insured Frank Sinatra’s vocal chords.
K.B.: Really?
D.H.: They insured oil fields in Saudi Arabia. They insured Dean Martin’s hair. And the legs of Marilyn Monroe. So there were lots of things going on there, and very famous people were coming in, and I was hired as a receptionist, because A) I was a fashionista; I had a nice smile, and I was really interested in all the environment that I was with. And B) they made me an offer I couldn’t refuse. They wanted me to continue working there, and if I really was interested . . . I’m so alien to math, I thought it was just ridiculous, but I thought, “You know, they must see something in me, I need to play out this string, because it’s a very interesting one.”
But they wanted to pay for my education in accounting. They felt that I really had an affinity for accounting. Why? I’m an English major! This is how I see myself. But then, people were seeing me as something else, and that was different for me. No one had ever seen me in any other context. And I needed to try that on; it was like an outfit. I needed to try it on to see how that felt. And when I did, and I was fully into it, my first lost semester, I guess you could say, and last lost semester from Towson, I realized that it was not as interesting as I thought it was. It’s like anything, relationships, or marriage, you know, the honeymoon is over, sometimes. And when the honeymoon was over, it coincided with another major event. And a lot of people say, “What took you back to Towson State?” and I said, I’ve always said, “The assassination of our President Kennedy.” And I was in the city when that happened. I had to ride home on a bus that afternoon. I saw the young kids, I mean the newsies, on the sidewalk, hocking the papers. People crying on the bus and my first thought was, that’s when I knew I would have to go back to Towson. That I needed to be in a classroom to talk about that. That there’s something that resonated that I knew, being in a place of business, it was not the same as an academic kind of environment. That that’s where I really needed to be. And it was a really major moment in my life, where several things coincided, the honeymoon being over. Realizing I really missed the idea of teaching, and then the death of someone that--it would change everything.
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: It’s changed forever, our whole country. So, that was a major thing for me. So, you know, that’s what took me--took me away, and then what brought me back.
K.B.: So you were only really away, then, for one semester?
D.H.: One semester.
K.B.: Fall semester. And came back in the spring?
D.H.: When you left Towson at that time, Dr. Orielle Murphy, who was the Dean of Students, had to have a consultation with you, and my mother went with me. She was very distraught that I was leaving school.
K.B.: I’m sure.
D.H.: She did not want me to do that, and Dr. Murphy, in her imitable way, said, “She’ll be back, give her a semester,” and I thought, “You’re a loon, there’s no way!” And she was right. When I came back, I had to have an induction with her.
K.B.: I see.
D.H.: And she remembered me very well, and we talked about just what I shared with you. And she said, “No, you . . . this is your destiny. I knew it! I knew it, and I’m never proven wrong.” Of course, she was, on multiple things, but you know, for that she was right! And so, it was a really special kind of reintro . . . then, I began approaching college with a newfound interest.
I think that time away, you know, and parents say, “I don’t want my child to go to a community college to test the waters, or go on the trip to Europe, and figure out my destiny, or to work, you know, here or there, in the summer.” Sometimes, it’s important to get beyond some things, and test out who you really are.
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: And for me, it was at a really critical time. I mean, truthfully, an only child, in many ways pampered, on a set destiny, and things came my way to change me. If I’d not allowed them to help me explore other things, it could have left me, maybe, feeling, “I wish I would have.” So I think it’s important to sometimes go on these explorations . . .
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: . . . if you have an opportunity.
K.B.: So you’re back, and did you sort of fit right in and continue? How did that affect your progress?
D.H.: It didn’t at all. I felt that Towson was very welcoming to me.
It was a really great environment. Again, I had terrific teachers. One of the most influential people on me at Towson was Dr. Marian Sargent, who was the head of English, and she was a brilliant woman, and very dynamic, very learned. And she was like what you would aspire to be if you were going to be a college professor in English, I don’t care what age, whether now, or in the past. She was ahead of her time in many ways, and very retro in other ways that were good. So she was a wonderful person for me to come in contact with when I returned. I got into her class by accident, and I didn’t realize what I was getting into. And again, it was a life changer to realize what you could do with text, and analyzing, and research, and the importance of students in the context of research. Teacher-researcher, although she never used the term, was what she was at that time. I saw it later, when I became a part of the Maryland Writing Project, and realized how, you know, ahead of her time she was, in what she was studying.
K.B.: Now, had you decided that you were going to be an English major when you came in? Did you pretty much have that in mind?
D.H.: Yes. And that’s what I had in the beginning, but I knew it this time, I really knew it, and I knew it I was going to be Secondary Education because, in my freshman year, I was exposed to Lida Lee Tall school, and I couldn’t handle that! The small children, although I babysitted them, you know, as a kid, I didn’t want a whole room of them!
K.B.: That’s fair!
D.H.: And they were cute, but the other thing that really threw me for a loop, and it was very big here at that time, it was calling your teacher by the first name.
K.B.: Oh!
D.H.: And they had glass walls, and they . . . the sound was piped to the outside, so when you’d look at them, like everyone was in a little, like, little lab rats, with the scientists, and that was the teacher. And the kids would call the woman Emily. Emily!
K.B.: Really?
D.H.: “Emily, call on me!” And I can’t deal with that, either. So I knew, if that was elementary school, I wasn’t going there.
K.B.: Interesting.
D.H.: And it directed me, for sure, to Secondary Education. And then, after my experience at Alexander & Alexander, I was really into sociology because they had many vice presidents, but the top-of-the line vice president really liked talking to me, and he was very--Mr. Kohnlein--he was very into sociology, and he’d graduated from the University of Chicago, the heartland of sociology still today! I thought, “You know that is just like so fascinating.” So I had a double minor. So I took heavy amounts of sociology courses. I was like one course away from a major, actually. I loved it.
K.B.: What do you remember about your education courses? Were they mostly theoretical, or more practical in nature? Maybe a combination of both?
D.H.: Both. Both. I can remember taking a general education course, and that was the theoretical one, but what--and I can’t remember the teacher’s name, but this person really hammered into us, “You must take reading courses. That is coming. You need to have these reading courses behind you. It’s not just about literature, it’s about literacy.”
I mean, we’re talking 1963.
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: So, you hear it now! Because with Common Core, it’s not about literature, it’s literacy. It’s developing literacy, that’s at the heart of the matter with common core. So, it’s not a new concept . . .
K.B.: No.
D.H.: . . . but, it was new then, I can tell you!
K.B.: Sure!
D.H.: And if you were going to be an English major, it was all about reading the great--you know, canon, and all this, but not at Towson. They were very into--the teachers that I had were very into trends, being ahead of the trend, aiming for things that aren’t right now, necessarily, but in the future. And one of the other things--Towson was way ahead of the game. My friends who were in education at other universities and colleges never really were into team teaching. This was a very, very important concept in the mid-60’s, as far as Towson is concerned, and I actually took a course in it, so I could see the philosophy, learn how to implement it, and it threw me out into little mini student teaching roles without the actual student teaching, which was really excellent.
So, it helped to weed out people that maybe shouldn’t be in education, but it was really enervating for those of us who did want to go into education, because we were working with teachers who knew--they bought into it early on, and local schools, and this was Baltimore County Public Schools--that they would have a person from Towson working with them, and team teaching, and it was like, wonderful! So I was, very early on, interacting with people who were strong mentors, because they were very short bursts. They were like, snow-bursts, they weren’t long-term kinds of things. But boy oh boy was that nice to experience, and it paid off over and over again, taking the reading courses, having that experience, and implementing it, you know, when I went out, into student teaching.
K.B.: And is it wonderful to have it so early, as you said?
D.H.: Yes.
K.B.: I mean, this is, before you get to the point where it’s almost too late to say, “I don’t like this.”
D.H.: Right.
K.B.: You’re given the opportunity to try it on.
D.H.: And I would assume that Towson still does that kind of thing.
K.B.: Oh, there--yes.
D.H.: But I know, in my day, you know, right after the Civil War, it was not common! It was not.
K.B.: No, it was not. Absolutely. But we do get to that student-teaching experience, and could you tell us a little bit about that: where you student taught, did you student teach at different grade levels? Different schools?
D.H.: Well, I had a very unusual experience, because it just worked out that way. There were some schools that were implementing team teaching, and the only place I could go was Parkville Junior-Senior High School, or maybe it was Parkville Junior High School then; I forget when they made the bridge, it was after I left. But nonetheless, I now am going back to a place where the teachers who taught me are there.
K.B.: Uh-huh!
D.H.: And I really didn’t want to do that. I wanted to go to a different school, but Parkville was the only school doing team teaching on the secondary level.
K.B.: Interesting, so that was a little bit scary, to think that . . .
D.H.: It was!
K.B.: . . . you were going home again.
D.H.: Yeah! And even the worse part, the teacher who was very fearsome to me at the time when I was in 7th grade, was going to be my cooperating teacher, and her name was Mrs. Payne, with a “yne” though. She was a lovely person, you know, but she was teaching something that was, you know, kind of interesting that they were going to phase out the following year. And that’s how I avoided Mrs. Payne! They used to teach English and social studies together, in Baltimore County. It was called “Core,” and she was a core teacher.
K.B.: Ah.
D.H.: And she wanted the team teaching experience, but I didn’t want the Core experience. And they had one person at the school who was in social studies, and one in English. They were the transitional teachers that were teaching a subject matter.
K.B.: Right.
D.H.: And I said, “That’s what I want to team teach in. I want English. I don’t want social studies and English. And so I ended up with Janet Dorsch. And she was phenomenal. She was the most wonderful teacher, and team teaching with her, that was the best thing! That’s what we were really implementing in MAT. There is a team teaching component that really has to be in there, I think, and at that time, it was alien. A lot of the teachers felt that it was just going to be a horrible thing to do.
K.B.: I’m sure!
D.H.: And they were very, you know, change . . . and I’ve even seen some wet babies who didn’t like change, although they’re supposed to like it. So, in that particular context, she was really, the experimenter. She was the one that wanted to implement before anyone else did. She was the one that wanted to be the first in line, and if everything fell apart, then she would figure out how to fix it. Nothing could ever be totally broken. She always had a fix. To come in contact with someone like that . . . it was so positive, so into change, so into welcoming another person on board, much younger than she, to assist her, and then turning me loose when she had to, so I could get my credits in regular student teaching, but I had an excessively long student teaching experience. I really did it for a full year.
K.B.: What?
D.H.: I did team teaching in the beginning. And I did regular student teaching at the end.
K.B.: My heavens! So you got a lot of practice!
D.H.: I did. I did get a lot of practice. I was ready to launch. And I needed it for where I launched to, I can tell you! It was good that I had it.
K.B.: So you did this team teaching piece, then you did something additionally, as part of student teaching? And what . . . was that also the same place, Parkville?
D.H.: Yes. And I took over Janet Dorsch’s classes.
K.B.: Ah! My heavens. And were you feeling comfortable about it, when this suddenly happened?
D.H.: I was fine with it.
K.B.: You were ready.
D.H.: I was ready. I really was ready. And so, one of the things I learned from it, and people who talk about, if you’re in education, there’s the talk about extending it one more semester, to make sure you fit in everything, and in my day, it was, you didn’t do middle and high school, you did middle or high. So, I taught ninth grade, which was really, you know, I mean, it was still in junior high school.
K.B.: At that time, sure.
D.H.: At that time. But then, you know, the transition that went on. So, for me, it was really very valuable, to have that extra. Well, that’s really, in a way, what things are being extended to now.
K.B.: Exactly.
D.H.: And I think that that is a good thing. I think that’s where a lot of teachers end up really in danger, and having dealt with a lot of them in my role as a principal later on, where they really didn’t have enough practice. They were great on paper. But they really didn’t have the things that were needed, and they didn’t even know they didn’t have it, so. That’s the rough part.
K.B.: So you are at the end of your preparation, and you’re looking for employment. Are you fairly confident that things are going to go well? Do you think you’re well prepared?
D.H.: I felt as prepared as anyone could be. I think my education . . . not I think . . . I know my education was superlative here, it could rank with Ivies, you know, with the depth and breadth and complexity and texture of what I experienced here, is phenomenal. And it prepared me for everything! And it has reconnected with me, over the years. But at the time I launched as a teacher, I was really ready to go, and I was told by my advisors here at Towson, that going in mid-year, although there are problems taking over teachers’ classrooms . . .
K.B.: Sure. Of course.
D.H.: . . . you’re going to get a job, because always, someone’s leaving mid-year. Someone’s going somewhere. Like, pregnancy leave, marriage, whatever, you know, or just like, “I’m leaving.” And, I was very fortunate, I had two openings to interview for, one at Golden Ring Middle, and one at Hereford Junior-Senior High School. And I was offered positions in both, but I really wanted the Hereford one, because I had lived in an area very like Golden Ring. I wanted something different.
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: And I wanted to just . . . seeing cows in the field from your classroom is really kind of appealing to me, so at that time there were, I don’t believe that there are now, but it was wonderful then. And it was just so different! I wanted different, and so I wasn’t afraid, because I’d done, again, I’d done things outside my comfort level, and experimented, explored, and I thought, “Golden Ring would be really comfortable. Hereford, that’s different!” I don’t know rural kids, and then, it was very, very rural.
K.B.: Right. And was that a junior-senior high school?
D.H.: Uh huh. And I actually, the only grades I haven’t taught on secondary level are grades seven and ten. But I’d launched into eighth grade, which was very comfortable, because I’d just been with ninth graders, so, you know, I knew the age group, so I was comfortable with that. And there was talk that Hereford would become a high school, that there would be a middle school and a high school, all that was going to happen within the next few years, and I figured then, you know, I could maybe stay, and be in the high school, or go wherever, if they were going to build a new high school, I didn’t know. And I thought that would give me more flexibility!
K.B.: Sure.
D.H.: Because I’d be in that part of the system, so I felt that was the best decision for me. And it was, I was there about 22 years.
K.B.: Wow.
D.H.: That’s a whole career, for some people.
K.B.: It is, indeed. Absolutely. So, it’s your first year, and you probably are familiar with the curriculum, but probably haven’t taught it before, and how did that first year go? Was that edifying, did that give you a sense that you were exactly where you should be? Difficult? Hard? You know, easy, hard?
D.H.: Everything that you’ve just mentioned describes that year. Everything. Because content-wise, I was ready. And the things I hadn’t read, that I had to work with eighth graders, you know like novels. I remember one called “To Beat a Tiger,” and it was about a little Chinese girl, and a family, and Mao’s revolution. I really wasn’t that familiar with China, so I had to research, which I love to do. I’d been taught how to approach literature I didn’t know before. I’d been taught how to do that, so no problem, content wise.
When I graduated from Towson I was Dorothy Catherine Edel, so I was Miss Edel. But that wasn’t what my kids called me. I was always “Mr. Burton.”
K.B.: Huh?
D.H.: Mr. Burton, or Miss Burton. His name, the guy who left to pursue another career, and hated teaching, of course, they knew him, they didn’t know me, and they hadn’t been doing a whole lot of work the first half of the year, because he was hating teaching a whole lot.
K.B.: I see.
D.H.: And so, I walked into a situation where the kids hadn’t behaved very well, they were like, the kids from hell, and they hadn’t been learning, so they hadn’t been programmed in that way, and I had to deal with all that. And it was very, very challenging for me, and I had a wonderful department chair who really helped me limp along, because I was very frustrated, and felt defeated on many days, and she said, “They will know you at the end of the year, they just aren’t going to know you for a long time.”
K.B.: Mm.
D.H.: And they’re going to like you at the end of the year, but not for a long time, and you’re going to have to live with that.
K.B.: Wow.
D.H.: And you gotta to be tough! And she taught me how to be tough, how to make--how to be resilient. She really was a person who was very influential, as far as how to deal with education, because you can have all the education, you can have all the experience, but if you aren’t resilient, you’re not going to be successful. You’ve got to be able to bounce back. You’ve got to be the Energizer Bunny. You’ve got to be Roadrunner, you’ve gotta be, they plow you over and you pop back up, fully formed, that’s you, that’s the teacher. And I did that. I learned how to do that, not at first, but through her help, and when I began my next year with eighth graders, it was just wonderful, because I’d had the refining fire the year before. And I was in the crucible before I even taught it, I’d lived The Crucible. I knew crucible! And so it was a very important experience. But it propelled me in another weird direction, because if you look, if you really look, and it’s not on my resume, I left Baltimore County in December 1968, and I returned again, after marrying my husband, we lived in Atlanta . . .
K.B.: Oh!
D.H.: And we lived there for about six months, and during that time period, there’s a theme in my life! Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. And my husband made his career in journalism by being in a lot of pictures with a lot of African American people. The white reporter taking the notes. He was their reporter, and it was a very difficult time in Atlanta. Very difficult. And both of us felt very uncomfortable there. It was very, very bad. And meanwhile, I’m getting pictures of Baltimore burning, from my mother, and so it’s bad all over, not just Atlanta.
K.B.: Truly.
D.H.: And between the assassination and the Atlanta Journal not following through with some of the promises they made to my husband, he began applying again, and ended up at the Baltimore Sun. And I replaced the woman who replaced me at Hereford High School, and she went to Shepherd Pratt, kind of the subsidiary campus, where she was getting mental health assistance.
K.B.: I see. Oh my heavens.
D.H.: So I’m back in mid-year again!
K.B.: You are!
D.H.: But I knew how to handle it that time. And I was fine. And I knew they wouldn’t call me by my right name, and I knew I’d survive it.
K.B.: And you didn’t take offense.
D.H.: I didn’t. And I had a marvelous time. I did. And it was like, “This is the school where I’m meant to be.” I like to be visionary in some ways, but I’m also fatalistic. There are some things where there are signs, beta signs, you know, turn left, okay, I will do it.
K.B.: Now did you have the same Department Chair?
D.H.: No. Actually . . .
K.B.: Oh, that’s interesting, too.
D.H.: After my first half-year, that lady retired, Mrs. Jacobson, and then, a new person came in, and she was Department Chairman for a while, and then another person came in, who was Hank McGraw. So within these bits of teaching, and then one full year, I had three different Department Chairs.
K.B.: Wow.
D.H.: So. It’s a lot of things going on then.
K.B.: Yes. Absolutely. So, at some point in your career, you, yourself, decide to venture into administration. How did that come to be?
D.H.: Administration caught up with me. Really. I had many leadership roles. I ran graduation, I was a teacher leader, I did all kinds of different things that, you know, that had leadership potential. Very stable department. If I wanted to stay in the school, I would never be Department Chair, because the only way you left was death or mayhem. You know, and so, there was none of that. So when you put all that together, then you look at the role of an administrator, and at that time, it was managerial, more.
K.B.: I see.
D.H.: At that part of the trajectory of school leadership, it was counting, managing, distributing, no, envisioning. That was done by your superintendent, who was Dr. Dubel, and he envisioned everything, and you just managed it. And so there was really none of the kind of leadership role thing going on that it is now, where it’s very different, although you do have a superintendent, and you certainly have guidelines. You really are expected to be a leader in a very different format.
And I didn’t want to be a principal at the managerial role. I saw the evolution of it, and I thought, “I have taught every Shakespearean play just about. I’ve taught all the American novels I want to teach. I teach writing; I’m now using the computer. You know, this is an end-game now, what can I do? Could it be a principal?” Well, I couldn’t just leap to a principal, I had to be a Department Chairman, and the only way I could do that was to leave the school. And so, being the soul that I am, and a very different--my way of dealing with things--I went through the training, and I was offered two schools. One was Parkville; I did not want to go back. I went to Milford Mill, which, at that point, was going to be Milford Mill at Sudbrook. I was going to unpack Milford Mill High School before it became an academy, be three years at Sudbrook Middle, which had been closed, and then repack to go back to Milford Mill Academy! So, that was going to be interesting, because I would jump into a department that didn’t know me, unpack it, didn’t know what I would be dealing with, and essentially be going from . . . I would say, at that point, it used to be 60% white, 40% African American when I first went to Hereford. People don’t know that unless they’ve been there. It’s because a lot of the property on My Lady’s Manor was deeded to African Americans, and so many of the children who I taught were black, and their parents had acres of land, and families that lived on acres of land. So now, however, you know, Hereford is, when I leave it, it’s 90% white, 10% African American. I go to 90% African American, and 10% white. Whereupon one of my friends, who was going to a mental health professional, offered me that person’s name, because she thought I had really gone off the deep end.
How could I be 22 years in one school, and then go to this other place, and be a slave to the system, unpacking, and then deal with all these black kids, who were reputed to be horrendous? Behavioral problems. Milford has always had a tricky reputation! It’s a very challenging school. I was made for Milford Mill. I was.
K.B.: Well, I was going to say that direct path is sort of not the road you’ve chosen. So this was sort of . . . had your name all over it.
D.H.: It did, it did. And I loved those three years so passionately, and it was like an amazing time for me! It changed everything. A lot of people would say to me, “Well of course you have no problems! Blah, blah, blah, you’re at Hereford High School.” Well, you know, now I have a school with problems, could I deal with that? And of course, kids are kids! They really are. And working with them, it doesn’t matter what their backgrounds are. If you can relate to them, you know, in an honest way, with integrity, and believe in them, I don’t care what they look like, or what they come from, you can have them learn. You can create a learning environment, and I’m totally convinced of that. When I hear teachers, sometimes, and when my interns in the MAT program would say, “Well, this is why my class is this way, because they came from this and that,” and—no! That’s not the way it works. This needs to come out of your brain now, we need to work in a different direction, because that isn’t the way it is at all. I loved those kids, and they were angry at me when they knew I was leaving. I was teaching a junior class, and they knew they would have had me for their senior year, and they said, “You can’t leave, and blah, blah, blah,” and I said, “Well, you’re going to graduate next year. Are you going to stay with me if I stay? You know, be happy for me! I’m going to be an assistant principal!” “Oh, everyone will hate you! We all love you! And then you’re going to be like the enforcer!” And then I said, “Well, maybe I won’t be that kind of assistant principal, exactly. Maybe I won’t be the one who suspends all the time. Maybe I’ll be a different kind of person. We’ll see, I’ll let you know.” And I did! I went back and visited with those kids, and gave them updates, I was close to them. I love that school. And I can tell you, I did not have our nations’ finest in all my classes. I mean, I had a mix. And they were just the best kids. And we went so many places together. And they taught me, and I taught them.
K.B.: Uh huh. So where did you accept this assistant principalship that took you away?
D.H.: Well, I had--there was one interview, and I had just packed a pile of books into a carton, and I had a coke stain down my leg, I was sweaty, my hair was disheveled, very un-me, but I was working, got a call, and it’s now three o’clock in the afternoon. “You have an interview at Eastern.” I think then it was called Eastern Voc-Tech. So, “You have an interview there. And, you’ve got to get on the road right now,” and I said, “I know nothing about this!” “Well, I just got, you know, I’m like talking to the box on the wall, you know, and you have to leave now!” I thought I was, you know, like interviewing for another department chairmanship? Because I left myself open. I just, I just thought, “I need to be open for everything.” So I didn’t even know what I was interviewing for.
K.B.: Oh my heavens.
D.H.: And when I got there, I asked the principal secretary, and she said, “Well, Dottie, you’re here for an assistant principal interview.” And I said, “I came to you as a work person, I mean, the principal’s probably really going to be upset.” Because I’d just seen the woman who was out in the main office, who was interviewing before me, she looked like a fashion plate--I looked like a slob. I mean I don’t even know any other better word. And she said, “No, this is a school that’s a career school, you look like you could be in any career!” And I thought, “Well, that’s new.” And luckily, I had materials with me, I had the resume, I didn’t know what I would need, but I also carried my full contingent.
K.B.: You were prepared.
D.H.: I was prepared. And it was an interview that went on for an hour, and I was offered the job at the end of it.
K.B.: And obviously said “Yes!”
D.H.: I did! Because you know what was in the wings? Professional Development School.
K.B.: Ahh.
D.H.: The first high school professional development school that Towson had, was at Eastern Voc-Tech. And when the principal talked about Towson, I was all over Towson! And the other person had graduated from Hood, so she wasn’t all over Towson, but I was. And I really believed that, you know, there may have been other things, but I think that Towson component helped me get a job when I was totally bedraggled in appearance. But that’s how I think Towson was instrumental, and actually, I worked with Dr. Gloria Neubert, and Dr. James Binko, and others, and that was one of the first--my first projects at the school.
K.B.: It was.
D.H.: Uh huh. Yeah. So it was really exciting.
K.B.: It is exciting. That was a long-standing relationship.
D.H.: Uh huh! Absolutely.
K.B.: What were your responsibilities? Were you in charge of discipline, as your students suggested might be the case?
D.H.: Yes. I was in charge of P through Z. And at Eastern Voc-Tech, P through Z means you get the kids who typically sit in back of the room, and are evil. So I had a lot of evil! And I also was, and I think this was part of the reason, maybe, I was hired, another piece of it. But I was going to be in charge of English, Special Ed., and the entire career program. And it was because I have blue collar in my background, although my father graduated in the, I guess, top 2%, he was a brilliant man, at Baltimore City College.
K.B.: Ah.
D.H.: He graduated in 1929, one of his best friends, Myron Pressman, who used to be the comptroller at Baltimore, and they were all going to college, and then the crash came, my father’s family lost everything, and that was that, so he ended up working in a shipyard. So, with that, he brought his stories home, and so I was very comfortable with that. And my father repaired some things at home, I held the flashlight, and my father had friends who came and told their stories, and I listened to them, too. I was very comfortable with that, so I wasn’t afraid of the plumbers, or the electricians. They were not happy with me, because I owned a smart suit, and what would I know? But they learned soon enough.
K.B.: That you did know stuff.
D.H.: Yes, I did.
K.B.: So how long were you there?
D.H.: I was Assistant Principal for five years.
K.B.: And then I know how school systems work. It’s sort of like being the provost at a higher ed. institution. One never stays, or rare--I shouldn’t say never, rarely stays in a position at that level. Somebody is going to say, “Dottie, we want you to consider . . .” When did that happen?
D.H.: Actually, two years after I was assistant principal, I decided I really liked the job, I really loved the discipline! I did not discipline in the normal way. I really found other ways, although I suspended when I needed to, I followed the Codes of Conduct, everything that were school-based, and the student handbook, kind of things. But I really liked that, and I felt that, at the same time, I was eventually going to get bored with it, and you know, I’m getting older, I’m a late bloomer, you know? I’m now in my you know, early 50’s, and so I thought, “I need to consider this other thing,” so I began preparing with courses, and doing all this stuff, so then I would be ready, again, to launch, if I decided to launch. And actually, my mentor at the school was a career assistant principal. In fact, he’s in his 80’s, he’s still substituting at the school. He’s gone back . . .
K.B.: Is he really?
D.H.: Jim Pallace, he’s a wonderful man. He was just so influential on me, and I saw the value of--some people were made for that role, he never wanted to be a principal. But I knew I was aspiring. I was going to need something else. I really wanted to move in a different direction. And so, when I was ready, and I was in the pool, I was offered to interview for certain jobs. My first interview ended up with another principal and I being offered two schools, and then Dr. Marchione, who was the superintendent, said, “Here are the two schools. Either of you could go either place, which one do you want?”
K.B.: And were you together when . . .?
D.H.: Yes! He just threw it out! That’s very uncommon. He didn’t want to be Solomon, and he wanted us to make the choice, so whatever happened, “Well they made that decision, you know, and I just allowed them.”
K.B.: Maybe that was Solomon!
D.H.: Yeah, maybe it was. Yeah. But, you know, and he said, “I want you to say your choice at the same time.” It was like a game show, or something, and I said, “Pikesville!” That’s where I wanted to go, because that was very different. The other school was on the east side, and I’d done east side, I grew up east side.
K.B.: Right.
D.H.: So I wanted something I’d never--I’d done farm, I’ve done African American Milford Mill, the Northwest, now I want to do a different kind of Northwest. And actually, Pikesville was very close to Milford Mill at Sudbrook when it was located there, so it was like six minutes away.
So I really wanted a very different experience.
K.B.: And did that work? Both of you didn’t say, “Pikesville!” This worked out?
D.H.: Yeah. And I think he knew that. I think that, the other person, the guy was very causal. I knew the population, the demographic, you know, so, and I knew many of the parents--I mean they--they were, some of them were very excited, others were not, because they felt that I’d come from a career school, and Pikesville was not a career school. Once they met me, they knew that I was going to be a good match for them, in many ways. But, you know, it was a great match, and I was very, very happy there, never an unchallenging year, always excitement. It’s an evolving community, with a lot of high-powered people, and a changing population. So it was just what I wanted. I wanted things I hadn’t ever experienced before and I got that.
K.B.: And you were there for almost a decade.
D.H.: Yeah.
K.B.: Which is somewhat unusual, to stay at the same school for that length of time. One of things that I would love for you to share with us, is, while you were principal, you and your school, and what you were doing there, was very well received. I know that you won a number of awards related to your career, and I would love for you to share some of that acclamation, the things that were especially special to you, in terms of developing, and helping that school evolve.
D.H.: Well, you know, the standard answer is really the true answer, and is, when you go into a place, you’ll do nothing, and the school will do nothing, unless everyone is working together. And so, rather than awards, the things that I felt so good about was taking a fragmented school, and making it a “together” school, like giving a school an idea that they weren’t so splitting-apart, that in fact there were many things that united them. And what I saw, when I first walked into the building, was that there was spirit there, there was pride there, there was excellence, but it was all working against each other. And I needed to find a way to get that united somehow, and I’ve always been very interested, and it goes back to Alexander & Alexander. It’s branding.
And Alexander’s logo was a double-A, and it’s like “A” is excellence, and A has a connection to the psyche. And I thought, “What can I do, that will, you know resonate?” What can I unite? And I actually had one of the art teachers, and together we came up with a new logo for the school.
They had about 82 logos. There was no sameness. I said, “This is what I’m thinking of.” I said, “Could you come up with a design?” And she did. The design, something artistic, really, had nothing to do with me, it had to do with an art teacher working with my ideas, putting them in a concept. And it was a panther with a Triangle: Spirit, Pride, Excellence.” And then, almost like a shaft of light, or a lightning bolt through it, so it was purple and white, and a little shade of black, and yellow, and all of those colors were in the various things around the school, like their banners, and so on, but no one had united it into a symbol. We had to have the gym floor refinished, and so, that was put in the center of the gym. And then I’ve always liked pins, and jewelry and stuff, so I went to a company, and very cheaply, because I had a million of them made, I had spirit, pride, excellence, and all that, Pikesville High School, and gave them out to kids who were doing nice things, like had been good neighbors, or had achieved something in sports--some kids who never wear pins, now they’re all wearing pins! Then the parents want to know, “Well, can I have a pin?” The PTA. And they wanted to redesign their PTA emblem. Everybody had an emblem. Now they’re incorporating this design in. And really, so when people say, “Well, how did you get things to come together?” I said, “An art teacher.”
And a new superintendent, Dr. Hairston. I’d left 200 and some computers and walked into a building with 26 Macs that were old, in the library, on a big set of tables! That was it for the school. Teachers didn’t even have computers in every classroom. Many teachers did not want computers. And would not touch them! And when I entered Pikesville High School, I had five faculty members that were between the age of 70 and 75.
K.B.: Good grief.
D.H.: So, and then I had some that were 23! You know, and it’s like, “Woo! There’s some generations!”
K.B.: Yeah.
D.H.: So, the symbol is there, the technology was the next piece, and that really started in my second year. That garnered a great deal of respect in the parent community, because they were already very into computers. But then it brought in the children who didn’t have computers in their homes, and their lives. So the new superintendent, instead of looking at Pikesville as other superintendents did, “Well, they have plenty of money.” Then, why don’t they have what other schools have? This superintendent was really--Dr. Hairston, may be seen by many different people in many different ways. I saw him as the man who really set Pikesville on the track that it really needed to have to move forward through the changes that were to come. He made the school technology--equitable with everything else in the county, and that really, that began to change the instruction. It moved out the people who really needed to retire, quite frankly, who were resistant. It helped, I think, the school come together through, almost, like, electricity! And so they were electrified! They were like that symbol. You know, they had a little lightning bolt in it. And then I think the third thing (and again, these aren’t me). These are other things that are coming into the school, that I’m helping to support, but other people are bringing these in.
K.B.: Well, you’re recognizing the need. And you went in, and the first thing you did was sort of a needs assessment. And you said, “These are the needs.” And you had some idea of the direction you thought you should take to deal with those. So I think that’s what a good principal does.
D.H.: Well, and the old principals didn’t. You see what I’m saying, also?
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: I think that that’s exactly the term, needs assessment. Even before I knew I was doing it, I was doing it. And it was really important. The other thing is that Pikesville, at that time, was never known for anything but tennis (because they have kids who had professionals teaching them how to play tennis). And one of the things . . . I’m an English major, and I like sports, but I’m so totally devoid of any athletic talent . . . but I am a great fan, and I attended everything! I was at events where I really wasn’t there, but because I was at so many things, they thought I was there! We not only got tennis championships, we went to the “States” in football. We went to the “States” with lacrosse. And it was because, if I’m there, and I encourage my assistant principals, if we unite on everything, we are really stronger! When we’re fragmented, we’re less strong. And the kids really feel that! They feel that interest. And I just really felt that it was an important part of supporting students.
It wasn’t just the learning aspect, that was always endemic of this school and it’s very, very important to the school, but I did look at the whole school. When I walked into Pikesville, there was a behavioral program that was 10% of my population. And they all had papers. Some were dangerous, some were not, some didn’t know what they were. We were able to still keep the scores up to include this population, to have success when other people thought we couldn’t, and we did, and they were embraced, too. That’s the whole thing. There’s an ideology of what Pikesville is, but in fact, at the time I was there, it was moving from 70% Caucasian, to now, what is 50-50. And so, it was making that evolution, and most people don’t even realize that. They’ve resisted all of the scoring things that people predicted for school. Scores tend to go down as your African American population increases. There may not be a willingness to say that aloud, but I will say it because that’s what I was told. We had a superintendent who said, “That cannot be.” and I agreed. I thought, “Dr. Hairston is right. There is no excuse for that. Everyone can learn. I’ve just been in a school where my kid’s scores didn’t go down, they were higher than they were at Hereford!” That’s a perception, it’s not the reality, and you need to get rid of that perception. Once I was able to prove that, with having faculty on board, and everyone unified, then test scores increased!
I was there for nine years. The five years previous to me, there were three different principals, and since I’ve left, and that was 2006, they’re on their fourth principal, but there were things in place, and when people ask me, “What are you proudest of?” I felt so great when I left this school that I felt that there was something in motion that really was going to continue. It had its own momentum, and its own life force. I was immaterial at that point; I really felt that.
And I needed to find a new adventure for myself.
K.B.: Well, speaking of new adventures, before we leave Pikesville, one of the things that, of course, you were very much involved in was selecting new faculty, new teachers for your school. And it sounds like some people, you, sort of, waved goodbye to, who’d been there, perhaps, even a little too long, and that put you in a position then, to select faculty. What were you looking for? This is something that comes up all the time, when you’re thinking about selecting “the best possible person” to teach students. What were you looking for?
D.H.: When I had the ability to choose the best, one of the unspoken things, I guess, that people don’t like to admit, but it’s a truth in all systems, sometimes you are given no choice.
K.B.: That’s true.
D.H.: People are sent to you. I call it, being given a “present.” And when you’re given a “present,” whether you want that “present” or not, you have to make the best of it, because that’s polite and appropriate to do. And so, I’ve had the ability to pick people, many times, at Pikesville, I had a lot of “presents,” to be honest with you. Because people felt that I would be able, and it’s all that teaching experience! All that work in the background, that people felt I could perform ‘miracle” kind of experiences. It wasn’t true!
K.B.: No, there must’ve been some evidence of that out there!
D.H.: But, when I had the ability to really make a choice, I really, first thing, I looked at the educational background, and the experience. I wanted to see that. And, Towson isn’t alone in having great programs. There are many schools that do, and so you look at that, but I have to be honest with you. If push came to shove, I always chose the Towson person. That is the truth! And people who’ve worked with me, if they were sitting here, they’d say, “Yeah, there was no--she’s--you cannot deal with her!” Because I know from whence they have come, and I respect that, and I know that I could always work with that, so it’s the education and the background, preferably Towson. The other thing is, I feel that there has to be an ability to connect with other life forms. And I always made sure that in the interview, I never interviewed alone, I always had an assistant principal, and typically I had a department chair, and sometimes I had another teacher, if I felt that that teacher was going to have to really be the one to work with this person for any number of reasons. And so, sometimes I would have, you know, four people in the interview, so I wasn’t the only one choosing. And the thing that always emerged, other than the background, they knew my Towson proclivity, was how they felt that person connected in the interview, and the ability to see that person in a classroom, through what they were presenting to us. Another really important thing, and I was, I think, the first principal that really demanded it, I always demanded, if they possibly could bring, or either make one up, I wanted a portfolio.
K.B.: Ah.
D.H.: And I always reviewed the portfolio. Not during the interview. If I was really interested in the person, or persons, and the other people were too, they left the portfolio with us. And someone took them on a tour of the building, and then we took an hour with the portfolio.
That was part of our practice. And you can tell a lot from a portfolio, and having worked in the MAT program, having gone from the other end, generating the portfolios, I know what principals want to see.
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: And so, that, in addition to the Towson requirements, I’m going and pushing certain things that I know principals are looking for, like photographic evidence of kids looking at least moderately happy, and not being like, somebody’s training a weapon on them, “Smile now, and look energized!” And, or, you know, a CD, or something like that. But also, evidence of student work, and the importance of student work. This is critical, because that’s what you’re getting in the classrooms, student work. And your ability to be affirmative with technology, and a willingness to move forward with it, regardless of age. And I’ve met some old souls who are very young, and not every young person has a cell phone. Someone who left MAT in 2009 never has had a cell phone, never will be a cell phone user. That is what I was told. Now, I’m sure that may change, but there are people who are locked in a century, sometimes, and it is--and always the stereotype. So, you know, evidence that the person, because that is a factor in education, you’ve got to deal with technology.
K.B.: Absolutely.
D.H.: So, in the process, then, taking that person through the building, part of interview, although the teacher didn’t know it, was the way in which that person reacts in the hallways.
K.B.: Hmm.
D.H.: And teachers, even if they weren’t in . . . I could always get a teacher on a free period. They didn’t care about giving it up! They wanted to go with that person to check them out, and see how they related to the kids, see what they did, what interested them. That was feedback that I wanted as well, and all that put together, when we had the ability to choose, it was multi-dimensional, and not just my--I mean I made the final choice, but I would never have three, two other people say, “That person is just not going to work, I cannot work with them. Please do not choose--” I would never override them. Never did. Because their instincts were good.
I pulled people in who I trusted their instincts, and they trusted mine, too. I mean, there was, that was a building of a trust level, so, you know, and that was part of an interview, too. “Do you think the person could be trusted?” And I had a young woman, and she was one of my last hires. She came into the interview with a baby.
K.B.: Okay . . .
D.H.: And she said, “My sitter has the flu, I have no choice, can I bring the baby?” and I said, “Well, I’ve never had children of my own, I will not be taking care of your baby. But if that needs to be done, I have people who will step up, and they’re good to go. So, bring it on!” So she brings in little Marcus, and Marcus starts yowling. One of the interviewers with me, gets the baby, takes it out to my secretary, who’d had multiple babies, and she knew she may be called in to deal with the baby. She did! We continued the interview, we could hear the baby, and then we couldn’t hear--so she must’ve taken the baby someplace else. But, you know, she was honest with us! And she said, I thought it was just great, “I’m a new mother. I’m not sure how I’ll balance things. I’ve really . . . I know I can be a good teacher here at this school, and I’ve done good work elsewhere, but I’ve never had a baby before, and I’m not sure, you know, I’m still working things out.” And the other people in the interview with me, the two others who’d had children, said, “That’s how you feel!”
K.B.: I’m sure.
D.H.: That’s the way it is! And she’s--that’s real, and we should take a chance with her, and she’s still there! You know, that’s how you make this . . . I don’t know. That’s a circumlocution.
K.B.: No, that was wonderful. This isn’t, as we understand, a simple process.
D.H.: No.
K.B.: And there are many things to be considered, and you’ve given us a good insight into that. But there comes a time, I think you said, when you’re thinking, perhaps, there might be something else that you wanted to do. And how did that evolve? Did somebody you know give you a call? Or, in terms of the MAT program, and you’re reuniting with your alma mater?
D.H.: Well, I think that I, in looking back on it, I don’t know how it happened. I call it “flipping the toggle.” Sometimes there’s a time where your toggle is flipped, and you just know, it’s like when I taught the last Shakespeare play, I thought, “I am so done with this.” Or, you know, “I’ve got to end this Assistant Principal thing, or Department Chair. I need to move on.” And I saw my last year as training two new assistant principals, (and because I was a training factory). I’ve always been a mentoring kind of person, that team teaching thing, early on, that collaborative thing has continued, so it was like, “Do I really? I’m not going to be here that long! Look at my age, I want--if I don’t break free now, maybe I never will, I’m going to be trapped.” And I thought, “Ten years.” I would definitely do it, but I thought, “You know, nine’s not a round number, but it’s a good number, I think it’s my number.”
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: And it hit, it really hit me very late. I shocked Dr. Gehring, and I said, “You’re no more shocked than I.” But I didn’t realize, till the kids had walked out of the building. And I thought, “This is it! I think this is really it.” And when I left, I had nothing. I really didn’t have anything, and how I connected with MAT, I’d went online, and I also had seen an ad in the paper, and I went online to check to see if it was real, or it was--because sometimes they print things in the paper, and it’s already filled.
K.B.: Sure.
D.H.: So is it--is this filled?
K.B.: Right.
D.H.: And I thought, “This could be it!” And so, I called, and indicated my interest, and they said, “Just follow the directions, talk to the secretary, got everything, you know, wonderful administrative assistants here at Towson University saw I was put right into battle, refining that resume, Boom!” And you know, it all happened in a matter--after leaving Pikesville High School, about three weeks later, I was hired.
K.B.: Wow.
D.H.: And had no inkling at all, there was something impelling me, and it--maybe there was the vibes out there, the MAT vibes . . .
K.B.: There you go.
D.H.: . . . Towson vibes.
K.B.: Well, you had also had such success at Pikesville, and there’s a point at which the best you can do is maintain. And then, that’s a point at which you make that realization, and it seems like you just knew it when those kids left. And with new Assistant Principals on the horizon, that maybe this was time.
D.H.: And there was a good assistant principal; he’s still there. Kevin Whatley is a wonderful man, and just ex-guidance counselor, never taught in the classroom other than through the added program, and some social studies classes. Very atypical movement into being an AP, and I think he may be one of those AP types. He just loves the job. He loves what he does. And so, I knew the school would be in good hands. And he’s remained there, and loves that position of being, essentially, a kind of institutional memory. So, it was the right time for me, and it was great for Kevin. It continues to be a wonderful resource.
K.B.: So here are you, three weeks later, hooked up with Towson University, in the MAT program. Were you familiar with the program at all?
D.H.: No! I wasn’t. I had to research it. I was familiar with the usual Master’s program, but not, really, MAT, so I really had to research it, but I knew, you know, some of the people within the College of Education, and I felt that if they were behind it, this is really good, and I wanted a Master’s program, and I wanted to teach people I’d never taught before. Keep in mind, I’ve done all these different demographics already, what haven’t--I haven’t taught people who are older students. I haven’t done that. So I want to do that. And then, I want a program that isn’t like a regular Master’s, right out of college, necessarily. They could be different kinds of people. And I felt that would be very good, because I’ve had a lot of experiences, I’ve felt that I would have something to contribute. So really, what appealed to me most about MAT, once I got a sense, it was a kind of immersion program, and that you had a set, very quick time to get people ready, and I felt I knew how to do those things. And I’d had the affiliation with Towson people in the past, so they knew that even though, you know, I’ve never taught on the college level before, that I have enough varied experience that it would be a matter of learning the culture, but I would be able to do the job.
So I felt that I could contribute a lot, because of my background with professional development schools, being there at the beginning.
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: And there was one other aspect that I figured out, that I would be in Howard County, and I knew Howard County very well, because I’d worked with principals when I was with the MASSP [Maryland Association of Secondary School Principals], the principals’ organization. The majority of the people who are active were Howard Countians, so I knew them well, and I knew I would really have an in, into that system, because I knew people.
K.B.: Of course.
D.H.: And so, that would be a good transition from, you know, Terry Sullivan, who I replaced. He had been a teacher in Howard County. Of course, when I did get the job, and I went on a ride-around with Terry, he said, you know, “Teachers are going to not be comfortable with you, because you’re from the other side.” And I said, “Well, maybe at first, they’ll get to know me, but what you need to understand is at one point in my life, I almost was president of TABCO [Teachers Association of Baltimore County]. Ever heard of TABCO?” I went up in the ranks. I’ve been on the dark side. I’ve been on all kinds of dark sides. You know? And so, that helped me at Pikesville, when there were people who had issues, I knew everyone coming into the building from TABCO, and they knew if I said, “This is the way it was,” that, more than likely, I could be trusted for sure.
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: So, I’ve always built that trust level, and I thought, you know, if you build trust level with people, it doesn’t matter. And I told Terry, “They may not trust me at first, but they will learn that they can trust me, and that I keep confidences, and that I will support them, and I will be on their side. And I may know the principals, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be on the principal’s side. Most of all, I’m on my students’ side. And they will rule.” And he said, “Well, they can’t rule everything,” and I said, “Well, they will.” And just--that’s just how I’m keyed. My students have always been most important. And you know, it was a great deal! And I fumbled around in the beginning, I didn’t know the culture here, and I didn’t know how to, you know, where I fit in, I had to figure that out. But Debbie Piper, who was then head, she was wonderful. I had great support from my MAT colleagues. I’m still in contact--I’m on Facebook with Dave Watts; I correspond, still, with Bruce Damasio on email; and Carole Powell, and of course I know Judy, and so, these people have remained friends, and you know, we transitioned out of it, but the whole idea--they were teaching me, “No, Dottie, don’t raise your hand at the meetings. You don’t have a doctorate, be quiet.”
K.B.: No!
D.H.: Yes! I was told that once.
K.B.: Oh Lord.
D.H.: But there’s . . .
K.B.: I betcha that hand went up.
D.H.: It did! I’m a good listener, but I don’t always want to--and it got me in trouble, too, but that’s all right. But there is a culture here.
K.B.: Of course there is.
D.H.: And you have a doctorate.
K.B.: I do.
D.H.: And you know that the culture is here.
K.B.: I do.
D.H.: And, but there is a practitioner culture, and that’s what I loved about MAT--the respect for the practitioner. And that’s the piece that really, you know, has been so important, I think, all the way through. The people who are in the program, and leading the program, really know education, have operated in a lot of contexts, I mean--Bruce Damasio, you know, if you look at his resume, it says, you know, you just look at the--he was a teacher. He wasn’t even a department chair, I don’t think. But he trains people all over the world, with economics AP. All over the world, I’m not kidding! I mean he goes to foreign lands to teach them about what we do with the AP. He’s been president of all kinds of organizations, I mean, he’s like, awesome! And you know, so, people who say, “Well, how do they feel about practitioners, and that doctorate thing?” I would say that, in this environment that practitioners are greatly valued, regardless of whether you have the Dr period or not. And that is critical, because there’s got to be a beyond, not just the people here on the hill at Towson, there’s got to be more. And I feel that all the way through my education, and all the way through my experience here, and certainly with the Maryland Writing Project, that practitioner piece is greatly respected. And there is the joke about the doctorate, but that’s in every culture.
K.B.: It is.
D.H.: You know.
K.B.: And it’s always there in applied programs, whether it’s nursing, whether it’s education, and I think that universities that do well with those kinds of programs are institutions that understand the need for both.
D.H.: Uh huh. Absolutely.
K.B.: And understand the need for partnering, between those two groups of people. And I hope that Towson attempts to do that.
D.H.: Oh, it’s more than an attempt, I think it’s a success story. It really is more than--I have a friend who works in a similar kind of capacity at Loyola, in Baltimore, and there’s a very elitist kind of cultural thing going on. Very much so. And I never sense that here. Never. I mean, I heard the, you know, the jokes, but I mean, one of my friends is Dr. Gloria Neubert, and I knew her husband before he became her husband, was my technology teacher. I knew him! And you know, I know people on campus, and they are genuine, wonderful people, wonderful in their fields, but they are not snobs, and there is a sense here, throughout the campus, and that’s what I’ve always loved about it. And I have a degree from Hopkins. It’s a very elitist place. I know the difference! You know, about atmosphere, and comradery, and all that sort of thing, and there is an openness on this campus that is very unlike other places. And I felt it when I was very young, I felt that I was valued, that my teachers wanted to hear my opinion. Even if they didn’t, they really were great actors! Maybe that was Dr. Loeschke’s influence, early in her career, on others.
K.B.: There you go.
D.H.: But I always have felt that, and, you know, that’s been one of the feeling of pride that I have in this school, that has persisted through my whole life.
K.B.: Talking a little bit more about the MAT program, what kinds of things are you doing in that program? Are you supervising student interns? Are you doing curriculum courses? And what about it do you enjoy the most?
D.H.: MAT involves supervision of your interns, and also teaching, essentially, courses that will acquaint them with school culture, and operations, and education trends, and essentially how to handle yourself in the classroom. And I sometimes call it “extreme mentoring” because they’re getting mentored on two ends: they’re getting mentored in their schools, but they’re also getting me, and it’s really another kind of collaboration, where your supervision is not just of your interns. Sometimes, when you’re in that classroom, you realize that what is instructing your intern is not what you would really find appealing in your own past experience, on any level.
And so, finding a way through that, so it’s also supervision of the situation. My first year, it was like, “What is this all about?” And I knew how to deal with the interns, and how to work with them, and then you know, do . . . hand them kleenexes when they needed them, and also to use humor when that was needed and to give them examples of how they could do stuff when they would hit a wall. I mean all those things, helping them with their portfolios. But it’s when I began to notice, on the teacher end, and I think I really, at least in four schools, helped to moderate, and as the component from Towson University. One of the things in Howard County that is part of the school culture is that you cannot become an administrator unless you have led something. And also, unless you have had a student teacher. And the student teacher, or intern, must be later in the game, not like, “Oh, I had one 15 years ago, and now I want to be this or that.” It’s got to be more recent. And so, with that in mind, there are a lot of people who want to go into administration, who are very eager to have interns, but I saw my first year that I wasn’t eager to have them as mentors.
K.B.: Hmm.
D.H.: And so, I was very fortunate, my first year, two out of the four principals, the two high school principals, where I was having the greatest degree of difficulty with the quality of the mentoring, to be able to have frank conversations with them, and let them know that I understand the rules, I appreciate them, but this can never happen again.
K.B.: I see.
D.H.: That these people, who are sage on the stage, who are looking to administration as an escape, not a continuance of a career, are not what I need for these interns. They’re paying too much money, they have too much of their lives invested, some have put everything on hold to do this, marriages, babies--you name it. I mean, a lot of these people, in any number of age groups, have crises in their own lives, and they need to have the best to work with. And I felt that it was critical that that be in place. And I said, “I don’t care what you--give them to Loyola, you can give them to whomever, McDaniel. But do not give them to me.” And we had a lovely agreement on that, and the mentoring went up and the two high schools increased in quality.
It was not an issue in middle school, at all. I really didn’t have the issue. They were people who just wanted to work with somebody. “Oh wow, I want to work with a person!”
K.B.: Yes.
D.H.: And a lot of them were, you know, teachers who were in, like mid, late 40’s, early 50’s. They wanted something, like, exciting in their life, I guess you could almost say. And I could give that to them. Boy, I had some excitement. And it was wonderful! I had no issues in middle school. In high school, it was a certain kind of individual, and I’d seen, of course, I mean once you’re out of a classroom, whether you’re a Department Chairman or whoever, you think everyone’s like you, till you get out there! I mean, because all you know is what they tell you in the faculty room, you’ve never been in the room, really. So, when you actually see it, it’s like scary! And so, when I worked with the interns, as I said earlier, my students rule. I wanted the best for them. I wanted the best education. I would give them my all, but I expected the all to come from the other people, too.
K.B.: Absolutely.
D.H.: And that, when I said it as an instrument of Towson, and also as a person who they knew, I think that that really went around, because I’m still affiliated with the principals’ association. I know the people involved in it, and they kind of joke about me, that I’m really--with Towson, you don’t mess with Towson! That was good, I thought . . .
K.B.: We appreciate that!
D.H.: I was really happy about that, you know! And Fred Cogswell, who replaced me at Howard County, unlike me, I had to drive for miles, he lives in Howard County. It’s wonderful! And he’s having a great experience.
K.B.: Good. I’m sure you left it in a good state.
D.H.: I gave him every--well, I gave him a thumb drive with everything on it. I said, “Here is your thumb drive; Merry Christmas.”
K.B.: One of the things that I understand is happening now . . . you’re not one to sit home . . . that you have taken on another adventure, and that that you’re beginning, or you’re continuing to write. And one thing that we didn’t have any time on, which, maybe this grew out of, was your experience with the Maryland Writing Project. Could you tell us what you’re up to now, and how maybe the Maryland Writing Project helped that to become what it is?
K.B.: Right. Well, Maryland Writing Project is another thing that really changed my life, and it coincided with my becoming computer literate. I became computer literate in 1985, with a little Macintosh boxy thing. And so, 1986, once I realized I didn’t have to retype everything, and type in dittos, and do all that, you know--when I realized the changes in my life, I thought, “Now I can really write. I’ve always written for myself, kept journals, but I never really wrote for publication. And I had . . . of course, I get all the alumni stuff, I get the stuff about my Maryland Writing Project. I had gotten it before, but until I was computer literate, it wasn’t--I wasn’t ready for it. And so, once I was ready, in ‘86, I was involved in it. And Libby Bratton really changed my life as far as looking at teacher research, and writing for publication as a part of their collaborative process. And that began my writing career. I guess, by my second week in Maryland Writing Project, I’d submitted my first article to the Baltimore Sun Commentary. And I did not tell my husband. I told no one, I just sent it as a, like any old person, you know--they wouldn’t necessarily connect my husband, at that point, and they certainly didn’t!
And that was the first thing that I ever had published. It was about a painting at the BMA [Baltimore Museum of Art] that really changed my view about art. And I wrote about that, and the relation to the computer changing my view about writing. I integrated both things. It was about painting, and writing, and art stuff. And so, and they were paying then. Now, they don’t pay, but I was like, “Woo, I got money for this! Woo, woo!” And now, I thought, “Well, I should write about stuff with education.” And so, then I began, I had an Educational Leadership, and a number of other publication, jury, journal kinds of things, so I was really in the nonfiction kind of mode, and that’s really what most of my writing has been--nonfiction, up to this point. And the other really, the connection with Maryland Writing Project, I felt that, at the end of it, if every English teacher, every social studies . . . in fact, I finally became like, convinced, that every teacher should go through the Maryland Writing Project, because the integration of writing across the curriculum and learning, and writing empowering learning, and all that good stuff, you know, and all the theory--I mean, we did the theory and the practice. All that, together, could empower every single teacher. Not that they would necessarily write for publication, but that they would write with and for their students. I’m a believer--I always did it, but I thought everyone did it. No! And I learned a whole new level of collaboration, through what I did with Maryland Writing Project.
K.B.: Absolutely.
D.H.: It was a whole different animal! And so, when, you know, you look back on the career, I think that as far as my later career, I began seeing administration after Maryland Writing Project, and it’s because I could see how you could influence more than a classroom. I could see administration in sense of a Department Chair--I wasn’t fully-formed in the other piece yet, but I knew I could have an influence on a department! I could have, and then gradually, I could have an influence on this school, you know? And it’s like, “Maybe that would be really interesting and fun.” So I think that Maryland Writing Project . . . when I saw Libby, it wasn’t long after I became a department chair, and I said, “It’s your fault.” So, now, I’m doing damage to more than in one classroom! That was really important! Now I’m not doing anything . . . But, actually, I am doing some things . . . even before I retired from Towson. It was the birth of a grandchild of friends of ours. And a grandmother, who said she was gonna take charge, and he was a difficult baby. And she needed respite. None of her friends could do it, because they are all still working, and I had some days where I could rearrange my time. And so, I’ve never had children, as I said before, so--and I’d never babysat babies. I babysat younger children, you know, primary age. So I didn’t know anything, and I thought, “Hey, I’ve never done babies, so let’s do the baby thing, see what they’re like,” and I’d never changed a baby, never fed a baby, you know, and here I am, I’m doing all this stuff. And I thought, “These little critters are really cute, and if I’d known that, I might have taken another route. But I didn’t think they were this neat! And I was fascinated with his learning. The child’s learning. And how early he was learning. And what it meant, and how critical . . . because, like a lot of secondary people, and having that Lida Lee Tall, “Call me by my first Name,” and the kids running around like, you know, it wasn’t me, I thought, “You know, I’m missing a whole piece. I don’t know anything about that. I’ve missed the boat. I need to get on that boat now. I need to figure out that boat.” And so, the grandmother was a retired elementary teacher, and I said, “You have to teach me some things, I want to learn.” And I became very close to this child. And when she and her husband, and then the child’s parents, decided they were going to move to Pennsylvania. My whole family’s gone; I’m the last one standing. My husband’s family is in Arkansas. I said, “There is nothing keeping us here. If we move away, it won’t be that far away, let’s go for it.” I think I get the piece about grandparents not wanting to see their--I’m not a grandparent, but I have an affinity to this child, and I think he would really miss me. I think, I’m Miss Dottie, in his life, you know, now he gets me! And he thinks I’m funny! I’m Dottie the Clown! I’m like this whole new person I never knew was in there. And that’s when I, when we, my poor husband, I drag him up from pillar to post, and we go to Pennsylvania, and I move in a neighborhood--I don’t like retirement villages, I’m into all ages. And there are all these little kids! I am the hit of the preschool generation.
K.B.: That’s wonderful!
D.H.: You know, and so I begin writing stories, and these stories evolved, and the child was having some social anxiety issues, and I was asked by his mommy to, at the behest of their pediatrician, to write some social stories. I didn’t know what social stories were. I had to research that, and then I personalized them, and I wrote him a series of social stories. What these have become, I’ve now widened the territory so that they really could be for any child. I changed names, and I’ve done a lot of adjustment. I work with editors, and so on, but my first children’s book will be published no later than April, 2014. So, I’m learning a whole new thing! You know, that was the missing piece. And now, when I look back on it, I think, sometimes, “You know, did I make a big mistake?” You know, but at least I got it at some point, that age.
K.B.: Exactly.
D.H.: So, it’s exciting, you know? My life has been very . . . it’s not wild, and I don’t do world tours. People say, “Well, are you traveling?” No, I’m not! I’m hanging out with preschoolers. I have two new little friends, Michael and Jason, you know, and I really love little kids. I never thought that that would be appealing, but it is. And they get me. I didn’t think they would get me! Or maybe they bring something out in me I didn’t know was there.
K.B.: Indeed. Maybe they do. Well that’s . . .
D.H.: That’s kind of my story!
K.B.: It’s a wonderful, and a very rich story. My heavens. We always ask one last question, and that’s, “What kind of advice, what kind of wisdom would you share with an individual who’s considering teaching as a career?”
D.H.: And I’ve actually given these thoughts. I don’t know that they’re wisdom; it’s just something I really believe. Every generation has had negativity, since I’ve been alive, and been aware of it, has had negativity about teaching, and about teachers. And it’s a terrible thing to go into. When I first went into it, you know, the class sizes were huge, and things were changing, evolution, and “Oh, what does this mean? It’s terrible! Why do you want to be a teacher?” I just think it’s the most wonderful profession to be in, and I believe in it totally. I would hope that people would enter the profession with positivism, and not allow the negativity to belabor the point, because at the heart of education, always is the student. And classrooms may change with technology, and with the way in which things are taught, or the novels that they’re exposed to, or how they do math, the new way to do this and that math, or whatever--none of that is material to teaching, really. That’s all the exterior. The heart of the teacher has to be a person who loves people, and wants to share knowledge, and help other people learn. I mean, that’s been the best thing, to know that now that they are my Facebook friends that I hear my students, or read that my students feel that I made them think writing was fun! And that they were--after having me as a teacher, they never feared writing again, because I decoded it for them. That actually was put out on Facebook a few weeks ago! I nearly fell out! And it was like, I helped them navigate the world, and whatever subject they’re in, or whatever you love and want to teach, at the heart of the matter isn’t the content. That’s a piece of it. The heart of the matter is the child, whatever age, and how you interact, and lead that child to be able to decode and navigate that subject. I would hope that people continue to find that a wonderful direction to go in their lives, because it is quite fulfilling. I’ve had my share of pratfalls and issues, we all do, we’re human beings, but at the end of it, I look back with pride, and happiness and fulfilment that I’ve made a difference. I know I have, because at the time, you don’t know it necessarily, but through the help of social media . . . and I’m on Twitter and Facebook, I’m semi-into Pinterest, I’m soon, with my new iPad, going to get into Instagram. I’m like out there! And I love that . . . so there’s more feedback for me to receive. I know teaching isn’t . . . a computer can’t be a teacher. A computer can assist teaching. It’s always assistive. It’s not the only thing. And even in those programs that you see, you know where there’s a college education, or cyber school, there are still teachers in there.
There’s got to be that component, so there will always be a need, and to find your way through that, I think, is one of the most exciting and truly fulfilling things that you can do with your life. I’m a proponent for education majors, and for any facet of education that people want to go into. I believe there will always be room for those who truly have the child at the heart of the matter.
K.B.: Thank you. Is there anything that we’ve forgotten, that you had on your list of things you wanted to share?
D.H.: Oh my goodness, I’ve babbled on! Well, I’ll tell you. As a child, and this has nothing to do with education, but in a sense--as a child, I never really liked clowns, not that I was, you know, fearful of them. I wasn’t really into clowns. And through one of my neighbors, I met the most wonderful woman, she lives in Rochester, New York and her husband was a teacher of architecture at Syracuse University. He’s now deceased. But to find her way through life, and she used to work in, I believe, elementary schools doing whatever--she decided to become a clown. And went to mime school, and this is going to connect to the current president of Towson. Her name is Marmalade the Clown. She’s now 81 years old, has more energy than all of us combined in this room, and the most interesting person. And learning about clowning, and everything, and how she loves mime, and, and I said, “Well, I know you will love this,” I said, “But Dr. Loeschke at Towson University, she’s the current president. She has a degree in mime, or something, she’s a mime! She can do mime! And she was an actress!” She said, “She must be the most phenomenal president in the entire United States.” That’s the only thing I would add, is just, I always--and I just saw her last week, and I told her I was going for an interview and she said, “Oh, will that president be there?” And I said, “Oh, no, my gosh, she has many important things to do!” And she said, “Well, I just--I would love to meet her one day,” she said, “That is just exciting.” So that’s the only thing I had to add. You can never stop learning, or you’re a dead person, you know.
K.B.: I like that. That’s a good place to say thank you to you, for taking the time. This has just been wonderful, a whole lot of fun.
D.H.: Oh, I’m glad.
K.B.: Thank you.
D.H.: I had fun, too! I’ve really been looking forward to it.
K.B.: Good! Thanks.
Interview with Dorothy Hardin video recording
Interview with Dorothy Hardin sound recording
Related materials from Dorothy Hardin
Senior directory entry for Dorothy Edel (Hardin), 1967
Dorothy Edel (Hardin) senior portrait, 1967
Transcript of interview with Dorothy Hardin
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