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Hi, Lily. How are you? I'm doing well. How are you?

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I'm all right. All right. I'm going to step back then and and let Lily handle things. We're definitely recording and I will be here, but I will shut my

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camera off and and let Lily take the lead. OK, great. Thank you. OK, so to begin, I'm going to formally introduce myself.

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My name is Lily Norbeck. I'm a senior history major at Towson University. I'm conducting this interview for my position as a researcher for the Unearthing Towson History Project, which aims to

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pursue a better understanding of the history of diversity at Towson. Before we begin, I'd like to verify that you've received the oral history contract and that you're OK with this interview

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being recorded. Yes, I am. Great. So I have about fifteen questions to ask you today.

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And before we get started, do you have any questions for me? No, I don't believe I do. All right, great. So to begin with, I'd like to invite you to tell us a little

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bit about yourself. So, when did you first begin teaching at Towson and what did you teach? I started in 1984 as a visiting assistant professor and I was in

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the history department, so I taught, I was hired basically as a U.S. women's historian 'cause that was my specialty in my PhD program. So I taught courses on women's history, I taught just U.S. intro

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courses, courses on U.S. history, and I believe I started fairly early teaching the Introduction to Historical Study, which was the, you know, the advanced writing course for history majors, don't remember

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what else. I think those are the main things I taught for, you know, the first few years. And then in 1987, I was shifted over to assistant professor,

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which meant that I was on like a tenure track line from that time on. Initially when I was hired, I was hired as like one year replacement contracts that they could go for six years, but

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after three years I was shifted to tenure track. All right, great. So in 1996, that's when the first proposal for the gay and lesbian studies minor was put out there.

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But when you first began working at Towson in '84, what was the campus's attitude towards LGBTQ individuals? Well, I think there were a few folks that were out, but most of the faculty that were LGBT themselves were closeted.

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There wasn't a lot of open, you know, a lot of people who were open about their sexuality. I think most people felt like it was not a climate that would allow them to be open.

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And yeah, so it's very different, sort of different world then I think there was. I remember when I first started teaching the intro course, or when I would actually... Let me go back, when I would teach about

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LGBTQ history in my regular U.S. history classes, students would actually sort of laugh about it, kind of like nervous laughter, I think. So they weren't used to like hearing about LGBTQ history in

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their, you know, regular classes, I guess classes that weren't like specifically LGBTQ themed, which of course many of them probably would have, would have shield away from. So they weren't, you know, it was unusual, I think, for them

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to hear material about LGBTQ studies in courses that weren't focused on LGBTQ studies. And at that time, were there courses that were focused on LGBTQ studies?

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I think that like the intro course, the Intro to LGBT, it was called actually Introduction to Lesbian and Gay Studies, I think, at the time it was approved in 1995. So that was the first time there was, like, the intro course.

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I think it was one of the first courses and there were a few courses that had LGBTQ content, but they weren't actually... They were like, one was called Sexuality and Cross Cultural Perspective and there was a lot of LGBTQ content in it.

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I started teaching a course on, I think it was called Gays and Lesbians in U.S. History and I believe that course I started to teach, probably, I don't know exactly when, but I think it was

00:06:09.340 - 00:06:33.920

probably in the early 1990s that it was approved. The Sexuality and Cross-Cultural Perspectives course was in... in anthropology, and then there was a course in psychology. One of the early courses was called the Psychology of Lesbian

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Culture. Barbara Slater taught it. The Sexuality and Cross-Cultural Perspectives was taught by Guy Wolf in anthropology and I believe another early course was

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in English in the English department taught by David Bergman and also taught sometimes by Jan Cheryl, I believe, which was focused on lesbian and gay literature. Those are the ones I can recall.

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Well, thank you. So you're saying that, like, around the early to mid 1990s was when they started offering these sorts of classes? And that was also a little bit before when the actual minor for

00:07:27.480 - 00:07:43.580

gay and lesbian studies was proposed. So at the time, because we had to have courses in order to, you know, propose a minor, Right. So, yeah, so those courses existed prior to us, you know,

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applying for approval of the minor. Got it. That makes sense. So what made you support the idea of having a gay and lesbian

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studies minor at Towson? Well, I mean, it was... It was part of what I studied in my PhD program. I had done a lot of work in gay and lesbian history and

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then when I came to Towson and started teaching history classes and when I would incorporate material on LGBTQ history students, you know, we are students would respond positively to it.

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They were interested a lot. I also taught pretty early on... I taught, I started teaching, like, Women in Perspective, which was the introductory women's studies course.

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My chair was very gracious to allow me to teach outside of the department in Women's and Gender Studies, which wasn't a department yet at that time. It was a program, but they had the intro women's studies course

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called Women in Perspective. And, you know, there were, there was interest in particularly lesbian studies, but also, you know, lesbian and gay studies among students in that class as well.

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So I saw, you know, a need for this kind of scholarship because of student interest and because, you know, faculty felt it was important to integrate this material into the curriculum just because it's part of history, it's part of culture.

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It's, you know, stuff that wasn't being covered and was kind of contributing. Perhaps the fact that it wasn't covered was, you know, maybe contributing to some of the issues that queer students and

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faculty were having in terms of being able to be open and, you know, not fear discrimination and hostility. Right. Got it.

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So in addition to you, who else was behind this proposal? Like who else was advocating for it? So David Bergman was, David Bergman and I sort of wrote the proposal that went through the system, went through Towson first

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and then to MHEC for approval of the minor. And it was the first minor, was the first LGBT studies program approved in the USM system, I think in Maryland generally, I don't think there was any other

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program. There was a committee on lesbian and gay issues, which became the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Issues committee at some point, but I'm not sure exactly when.

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But so the committee was, you know, very involved generally in, in trying to, you know, develop and, and get the minor approved on campus. There was, you know, the the administration was supportive,

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as I recall, like the Dean of the College of Liberal Arts was supportive. There was some opposition in the Senate. When we tried to get it through the university Senate, one

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individual in particular, like, was concerned that it was politicized and therefore not legitimate academically. But that was kind of a lone voice, as I recall. I don't think there was like major opposition in the Senate.

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It certainly passed the Senate and I think by, you know, a fairly large majority. I was on the Senate at the time that the proposal went through and I don't recall much opposition except that one

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individual. So I think it, you know, it had fairly broad support. It was, which is I think one of the reasons that, you know, we were the first university in the system to have it because

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we did have, you know, a fair amount of support, even at the, you know, kind of the higher levels. It wasn't just the committee, you know, against the world. It was, there was a lot of support and partially because,

00:13:11.310 - 00:13:28.880

you know, there were a number of faculty within their departments who had already developed, like, these courses and obviously had enough support within their departments to develop the courses, which then made it, you know, kind of possible to to

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have the minor. That makes sense. And since Towson was the first school in University System of Maryland or potentially the state of Maryland to offer this

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kind of program, how would you say it affected Towson's public image? I don't really know, to be honest. I do think that, I do think that it, you know, it sent a

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message basically that the campus was, you know, at least somewhat LGBTQ friendly because we had the program. And I think that it did help to, you know, make potential, you know, applicants more comfortable applying here just

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because the fact that we academically had this program was, you know, a signal that that the campus was safer maybe than other campuses for for LGBTQ students. All right, got it.

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So do you think that aside from attracting students who are potentially interested in that field of study, do you think that having that minor changed the opinions or attitudes of existing students and faculty on LGBTQ issues?

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Yeah, I think it, I think it did because it's also a signal to them that the university, you know, is, is supportive of LGBTQ studies. Of course, you know, you can't erase homophobia with just an

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academic program, but it isn't an, I think it, again, it's a symbol, you know, of acceptance of LGBTQ students, faculty, and, you know, the idea that it is a legitimate area of study.

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Even though there might still be pockets of people on campus who don't believe that the fact that the university has sanctioned this, this academic field is, is I think an important step in the right direction.

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Certainly. And I think it also because the intro course in particular was part of the core curriculum, it helped to, you know, and obviously not just LGBTQ students, but also, you know,

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straight students took the class. And I think that there in the early years, I think a lot of students that took, a lot of straight students that took the class were students who had, you know, family members who were

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LGBTQ. And so it helped them to kind of, you know, be sensitive and understand like how they could better relate to of friends or family members that were LGBTQ.

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So, and that maybe that was one of the reasons that, you know, students took it, I think to sort of be more informed and, and sort of get a better understanding of LGBTQ experience.

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Right. Got it. So also, once the major was approved for the 1997, 1998 school year, what kinds of classes were offered,

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particularly for credit for that minor? Well, you know, obviously the intro course, like if you wanted to be a minor, you had to take, we set it up so that you had to take the intro course and the intro course was the prereq for

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many of the other courses in the minor. So people usually started with that. There was like a capstone experience in the minor and that would be either an independent investigations course where a

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student would work individually with the faculty member and do like some kind of research major research project. Or the other option was to take a topics course, 470, LGBT 470, which was, you know, could vary depending on what faculty member

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was teaching it and what what their interests or expertise were. And, you know, within that course, they would do some kind of major research paper.

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The other courses that were offered were the ones that I already mentioned, you know, the anthropology, the psychology, the history class. There was also a women's studies class called women and sexuality

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that students could take as part of the minor. There was a course in education, I can't remember the name of it right at the moment. It was basically about diversity in teaching.

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And at the time, you know, several of the people who taught the class incorporated LGBTQ content in it. So we included that, trying to think. I think that was those were the main courses, the English course

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all when the minor started it was almost exclusively College of liberal arts faculty that were teaching in it and that remained true for quite some time with the exception of the education course.

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Then more recently, there have been several courses in communications studies that have been added. There have been some courses in theatre that have been added, but it still remains rooted primarily in the College of

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Liberal Arts as far as who's teaching in the program and where the courses are located. Right. Got it.

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And originally it was part of the interdisciplinary studies program, correct? Yes, that's right. It was, it was an interdisciplinary studies

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program, the LGBT studies minor, right. And it shifted to being under Women's and Gender Studies. I don't know, I'm not sure exact exactly what year, but basically when I became chair of Women's and Gender Studies, I moved to

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try to bring it under Women's and Gender Studies because I thought that it would be stronger if it was located within a department as opposed to being in interdisciplinary studies, which is, you know, historically interdisciplinary

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studies was not like, I don't know, the programs there sometimes kind of didn't, weren't real strong in terms of interest by students just because it was kind of off to the side, not located within a specific department.

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So I'm not sure exactly what year that was. It was probably 2016, '17, something like that, but you could probably look that up. So pretty recently.

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Yeah, it was, it was fairly recent. Got it. So kind of going off of that question, what has enrollment for the minor been like?

00:22:28.720 - 00:22:42.320

Well, it's, it's waxed and waned at various points where it at the moment we're at a low point. This was true for both women's and gender studies and LGBT studies.

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COVID seems to have, like, had a real impact in terms of declining numbers. And I think that, you know, I think that one of the issues there is that COVID, our students, you know, LGBTQ

00:23:02.920 - 00:23:27.530

students and women's and gender studies students, I think are often sort of in precarious situations socially, economically, politically, certainly recently. And, and so I think that, I think COVID really, you know,

00:23:27.530 - 00:23:45.800

had an impact on students' ability to sort of continue their education and be, like, present and, and feel affirmed in their, in their identities and things like that. So I think that's taken a toll.

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Certainly. I mean, it's never been a huge program. I think it at its height, we might have had like 20 minors. I don't think we ever had more than that.

00:24:02.400 - 00:24:24.800

OK. Do you know about what time frame that height was at? I would say that was probably in like the 2010s. OK, That kind of makes sense given the context of that time, the legalization of gay marriage.

00:24:24.840 - 00:24:41.080

Yeah, yeah. So also kind of talking about the context in which this minor was approved and it kind of continued to develop. So in the 1990s and early 2000s, that was kind of the height of

00:24:41.080 - 00:24:57.730

the AIDS epidemic. So how would you say that affected the minor and people's attitudes towards it? Yeah, Well, I know that during the AIDS epidemic, there were

00:24:57.730 - 00:25:22.760

incidents on campus that were, you know, anti-gay especially. I remember a particular incident where someone in the towers, student in the towers posted a big sign in their window that was visible to people outside that said "stop AIDS, kill a fag."

00:25:25.120 - 00:25:45.870

And students reported, you know, to us and to other entities, you know, issues of like hate and discrimination aimed at them because of the AIDS epidemic. So the campus climate was difficult, I think made even

00:25:45.870 - 00:26:07.090

more difficult both by AIDS, which also took place in the context of the emergence of the new right, which, you know, was a strong anti-gay movement historically. So that the convergence of those two things I think created, you

00:26:07.090 - 00:26:32.800

know, problems that that made it difficult to be openly gay on campus and off campus. You know, I think it really had a direct impact on students ability to positively identify as gay.

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Do you think was there a point in time at Towson when that started to change and things began to be more accepting? Well, I think, you know, as the LGBTQ movement developed and, you know, the the opposite, you know, sort of the opposition to

00:26:54.420 - 00:27:14.140

the new right, and as as the political movement developed, you know, there was more options for students to sort of hook into that kind of activism and that kind of pride in their, you know, in their identities and to begin to, you know, work on

00:27:14.140 - 00:27:27.680

campus to try to address some of those issues. Both students and faculty, you know, felt empowered to some extent by what was happening, you know, off campus as well as on campus.

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Got it. Just greater consciousness, you know, in the society generally of, you know, the positive sort of that, just, you know, more support legally and socially, culturally for being LGBTQ.

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Got it. So kind of switching gears a little bit. In 2005, the gay and lesbian studies minor was expanded to include bisexual and transgender studies.

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So what do you think was behind that change and how did it alter the program? Well, yeah, I think it's just greater consciousness of the significance of bisexual and transgender individuals, like,

00:28:27.480 - 00:28:50.360

within the larger movement as well as there was becoming more scholarship on bisexual and transgender issues, although it was still, you know, way behind lesbian and gay scholarship. Even at that time in 2005, there was much less, I mean,

00:28:50.360 - 00:29:07.840

teaching the LGBT, well, teaching the what was called gay and lesbian history course. At that time, it was hard to find bisexual history or trans history that was produced within, you know, academic

00:29:07.840 - 00:29:25.710

settings. It just was behind the lesbian and gay scholarship. And but I think that including bisexual and transgender was kind of a signal that this is the direction that the program

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should be going, that there should be, like, more inclusion of bisexual and transgender studies in the curriculum and that students actually were kind of demanding it. I know when I was teaching both the intro course and the gay and

00:29:46.870 - 00:30:09.550

lesbian history course, students began sort of asking about, you know, bisexual or transgender issues or wanting to do their papers on those things. And, you know, like I said, the state of the field was such that

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it was sometimes difficult to find sources, basically, that, you know, were academic in nature, which is not to say that other sources were not valuable. But in terms of sort of building arguments and being able to draw

00:30:29.630 - 00:30:45.720

on existing scholarship, it was sometimes, you know, more like people were having to do primary research because they really didn't have a lot of, you know, scholarly material to rely on.

00:30:46.680 - 00:31:07.640

That, of course, changed over time. And I think that, you know, certainly that aspect of LGBT history, those aspects of LGBT history have, you know, expanded greatly in the, you know, in the 1990s on.

00:31:09.280 - 00:31:27.360

But, you know, early on it was kind of, it's kind of difficult to incorporate that material without just going to primary sources in order to do it, which I sometimes did just because it was the only thing available.

00:31:28.680 - 00:31:46.660

And even when there was scholarship, you know, we're talking before we had blackboard and that kind of stuff. So making it... You know, what existed was often sort of inaccessible like to students, so that it was difficult to

00:31:46.660 - 00:32:02.320

incorporate it. And I can imagine for an intro level class it might be more difficult to, you know, integrate those primary sources and have students utilize them on their own for their research.

00:32:02.320 - 00:32:21.260

So I can imagine there were a lot of challenges in that regard. I mean, sometimes primary stuff was more available because it was kind of popular, you know, popularly produced, as opposed to the academic stuff, which tended to be in like journals

00:32:21.260 - 00:32:32.000

and, you know, that the library might not subscribe to or, you know, kind of in places that were a little more difficult to access. All right.

00:32:32.320 - 00:32:47.720

Got it. So how would you characterize the state of LGBTQ rights on Towson's campus today? And do you think it's changed significantly over time?

00:32:51.120 - 00:33:07.160

Well, yeah, I mean, it's definitely changed over time. I mean, there, you know, at one when I came to Towson, there was... Sexual orientation and gender identity weren't in the, you know, anti-discrimination statements.

00:33:08.480 - 00:33:32.850

Those were added. Let me see, in... Sexual orientation was added to the non- discrimination statement at Towson in 1997, which again was kind of early and was difficult to achieve because there were

00:33:32.850 - 00:33:49.000

concerns about... One of the things I remember in that battle to get it included was had to do with how sexual orientation sort of runs up against religious freedom.

00:33:50.160 - 00:34:20.780

And there was, like, a Mormon group on campus that said they shouldn't have to, you know, include LGBTQ students. There was an ROTC issue because Towson had ROTC at the time and the, you know, the Army at that time, of course was, you know,

00:34:20.780 - 00:34:36.120

closed to LGBTQ people. So there was that issue. There were a number of things that were, and also the fact that the state did not yet have an anti-discrimination policy.

00:34:37.240 - 00:34:56.940

And we're a state institution. That was raised, as, you know, that there would be a conflict between Towson's policy and the state policy of which they were a part. But eventually, basically because of the support of the

00:34:56.940 - 00:35:15.960

president at the time, HoKe Smith, and other administrators, it was, it was approved despite some of those objections that were raised at the time, some of the concerns around conflicting, you know, policies.

00:35:17.720 - 00:35:32.000

But it was worked in. Gender identity came later. And I'm not sure exactly when that was, but initially it wasn't, you know, it didn't come in at the same time as sexual orientation.

00:35:34.720 - 00:35:52.020

So as far as, like, rights, there has definitely been, you know, an improvement over time in terms of just protections against discrimination. And of course some of those are also have come from, like,

00:35:52.020 - 00:36:09.940

federal, you know, legislation that has required on campuses to be non-discriminatory. So, you know, culturally, that's a whole different thing, right? Because you can have all these policies that protect people

00:36:09.940 - 00:36:33.110

when they are discriminated against. But if the cultural milieu, so to speak, is, you know, is still behind the policies, then it can be, you know, it can be very difficult for students to access those rights or even faculty to

00:36:33.110 - 00:36:55.920

access those rights. But more so students because they're more vulnerable in terms of, you know, if their families don't know, if they don't want to be out. Like bringing a discrimination suit is essentially outing

00:36:55.920 - 00:37:16.530

yourself at least at some level. So those are, you know, I think there there's still issues. And of course, the most recent, you know, the recent efforts to roll back the rights of LGBTQ people at the federal and state

00:37:16.530 - 00:37:38.540

and sometimes local level has also... I think while there's obviously more resources to resist those things than there were, you know, many years ago, it's still, like, it can become very difficult for individuals in certain,

00:37:38.540 - 00:37:57.980

in whatever situation they're in to exercise those rights and to openly resist the curtailment of those rights. Got it. So on the topic of resistance and politics, would you say that

00:37:57.980 - 00:38:21.820

this program, the LGBT studies minor, has made students more politically aware and even politically involved? I don't have any direct evidence for that, but I would assume that, you know that it has that effect at some level at least

00:38:21.820 - 00:38:39.150

that people, you know, by learning about politics and resistance. Because if you look at the description of the LGBT studies minor, resistance is in there as part of what, you know, what we

00:38:39.150 - 00:38:52.040

teach, how LGBTQ people have resisted and what kinds of activism they've engaged in historically and in contemporary society. Those are things, yeah.

00:38:52.040 - 00:39:07.680

We didn't want it to be like a minor that's just about victimization. We also wanted it to be, which is not to say that we don't talk about victimization because obviously you have to as part of

00:39:07.680 - 00:39:27.200

the history or even contemporary issues for LGBTQ people. But we also wanted to ensure that courses would address, like, the history of activism and resistance that LGBTQ people have developed.

00:39:28.160 - 00:39:51.600

And by doing that, we hope that students might learn about different strategies and different positions that LGBTQ people have taken and some of the consequences of those, those forms of activism and resistance.

00:39:51.640 - 00:40:02.600

And, you know, learn from them in terms of developing their own strategies for for change. Got it. Right.

00:40:02.600 - 00:40:15.680

So that was my last question actually. But before we conclude, I just wanted to ask you if there's anything else you want to add or anyone else that we should speak to on this topic.

00:40:17.360 - 00:40:44.670

Well, I don't, I don't know who you've spoken to already, but I mean, the people I can think of would be David Bergman was certainly central. Let's see, Jennifer Langdon in Sociology or criminal justice

00:40:44.670 - 00:41:07.440

because she teaches a course on queer issues in crime and justice that's part of the minor. Michaela Frischerts in Communication Studies teaches a couple of courses that are included in the minor.

00:41:08.240 - 00:41:25.280

Let me think, who else... Guy Wolf passed away. Joan Rabin in psychology is living in a lesbian retirement community in Florida, and I believe her partner, Barbara Slater,

00:41:25.280 - 00:41:44.400

still, I think they're living there together. And Barbara Slater was the person who taught the psychology of lesbian culture and she was very active in the committee on lesbian and gay issues when it was first formed.

00:41:44.400 - 00:42:02.480

Let me think, Jan Cheryl actually is still on, is living in Baltimore again. But he was very active. He taught in the English department.

00:42:02.520 - 00:42:27.800

He was not like a tenure track but he taught in the English department, the lesbian and gay literature course. And he also was important in doing some of the early campus climate surveys, like in the probably in the 1980s or 1990s.

00:42:27.800 - 00:42:49.680

He was a, it's like in student affairs, I think in in that. And he he did some really interesting work in terms of trying to, you know, sort of document LGBT students experiences on campus.

00:42:50.200 - 00:42:59.600

So he might be somebody that would be interesting to talk with. I don't want to leave anybody out. I'm trying to.

00:43:00.440 - 00:43:14.710

I don't. Yeah. I think those are the main people that I can think of. All right.

00:43:15.430 - 00:43:29.440

Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today. I mean, I really appreciate it. Everything you had to say was very enlightening and very helpful for us as we are researching more into Towson's

00:43:29.440 - 00:43:31.680

history. Yeah. OK. Well, thank you.

00:43:31.680 - 00:43:42.880

I'm really glad you're doing this, too. It's a it's a good thing to get this stuff recorded so that people can access it. Yeah.

00:43:42.880 - 00:43:53.520

I want to add my thank you. I learned a lot, Cindy, like always. It's fascinating to hear about the things that came before. Yeah.

00:43:55.360 - 00:44:09.530

Oh, I think one other thing I want to, I forgot to mention this. When we're talking about the addition of bisexual and transgender issues, when I was on the committee on lesbian and

00:44:09.530 - 00:44:21.830

gay issues, we were talking about resources for the library one time. Like what, what we could get, you know, and I mentioned that maybe we should

00:44:21.830 - 00:44:42.380

like, and this again was because a lot of my students were bisexual and they were like, interested in bisexual stuff. And I was saying that we should maybe look into finding some, you know, if we could find films or books or, you know, journals

00:44:42.380 - 00:44:51.040

that dealt with bisexuality. And one of the members of the committee said, oh, I don't think we want to get into that. Right.

00:44:51.040 - 00:45:09.520

So there was that kind of attitude about like, bisexuals were not really part of the the lesbian and gay community or, you know, it was something different and it really didn't belong alongside lesbian and gay issues.

00:45:11.240 - 00:45:20.490

Yeah, got it. But over time, that attitude, yeah, I mean, over time it changed. The committee became the Committee on Lesbian, Gay and

00:45:20.490 - 00:45:32.120

Bisexual Issues. Yeah. And there was some change of terminology because initially was the Gay and Lesbian Issues committee.

00:45:32.120 - 00:45:46.580

And then we switched it to lesbian and gay issues committee because, and this was in line with some of the things that were happening kind of nationally where lesbians were saying that,

00:45:46.580 - 00:46:06.900

you know, lesbians should kind of be put first because they tended to be invisible under the term gay. And so there needed to be like, an explicit recognition of lesbians and kind of putting them first to counteract the

00:46:06.900 - 00:46:18.600

tendency to, you know, emphasize gay men's experiences and issues. Got it. Yeah, well, thank you.

00:46:19.040 - 00:46:24.800

Appreciate you sharing all this information with us. Sure. Thank you. Yes, thank you again to both of you.

00:46:25.320 - 00:46:31.440

And Cindy, I'll see you around and a little bit soon. OK. OK, Alright, bye.

00:46:31.480 - 00:46:31.960

Bye. Bye.