Interview with Brendan Curran

Abby Bowling: All right. Abby Bowling: So, I guess we can start with just, I'll tell you some of the things that I found in my research, and then I'll tell you what Sarah told me, and then we can Abby Bowling: bring that all together and talk about your experience. So, I started researching student activism at Towson, because there was a lot of research about the sixties and seventies, and not so much about later time periods. So, I was thinking what kind of major events would spark like lots of organizing on campus and things like that. And I found myself in the late nineties and early 2000s. And I found Towson Action Group, Abby Bowling: which was organized around the 2000 election, but then had a lot of things happening. After 9/11, a lot of anti-war stuff, and there was also a lot of organizing around the Aramark workers on campus

Abby Bowling: and getting a living wage for campus employees. So Abby Bowling: the first thing I'll do, is the names I came across. Sarah said she did not recognize any of these people, but I'm curious if you are familiar with Neale Stokes, Jordan Feeder, or Tanza Coursey at all. Do any of those names ring a bell? Brendan Curran: Jordan. Brendan Curran: I believe so.

Brendan Curran: In the context of, I think I was introduced, Brendan Curran: I think it, I think it is him. Brendan Curran: I know I had went out, there was a philosophy, you know, Brendan Curran: event, a talk. And a student, a former alum came out

Brendan Curran: from Berklee, Brendan Curran: within the San Francisco area, came out to speak with us about Brendan Curran: you know, nonviolent revolution, Brendan Curran: revolution. And we went to, after the the talk, Dr. Walt Fuchs, Wolfgang Fuchs, a

Brendan Curran: philosophy professor and I, Brendan Curran: and I believe it was Jordan, Brendan Curran: went out to Smedley's Pub, which is now the Towson, or it was then the Marriott bar, and now it's like completely done with housing, and we drank for a long time talking about philosophy and activism and things. I do have, Brendan Curran: I'll have to check my bookshelf, because I remember there was a printed up thesis

Brendan Curran: that whoever it was, I want to say Jordan rings a bell, had done. Brendan Curran: And a pamphlet, and I kept that. Brendan Curran: So I just have to go back and take a look. Brendan Curran: But that would have been before my time. So they would have graduated

Brendan Curran: probably in the, you know, like 2000, Brendan Curran: like timeframe. Abby Bowling: Yeah, they were like 2002 to 2004. So like, Abby Bowling: that would be your freshman year?

Brendan Curran: Uh yes, it would have been. I came in in the fall of 2004, Brendan Curran: so I think I would, I probably would have missed them. Abby Bowling: Okay. Had you heard of Towson Action Group at all? Brendan Curran: I had. So I remember it from

Brendan Curran: gentleman named Nicholas Sokolov (Sokolow) Brendan Curran: and his involvement in it. Brendan Curran: And I remember, I believe. Brendan Curran: another one of my friends, Alicia West,

Brendan Curran: was involved. Brendan Curran: No, Alicia, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Alicia would have been there at that time. Brendan Curran: And I'm trying to think of anybody else that would have been. Brendan Curran: But I remember from 2000, from my first year until I graduated,

Brendan Curran: there wasn't a... Brendan Curran: they weren't represented on campus. When I say, represented on campus, I don't remember the Action Group being advertised. Brendan Curran: There was, you know protest on campus, Brendan Curran: different events. But I don't- it never seemed... it seemed to originate from...

Brendan Curran: There'd be a, for Brendan Curran: lack of a better term, 'parent organization' or student group. Like it would be, that Brendan Curran: it seemed like they were Brendan Curran: built around like the Queer Student Union would be. Like, you know, organizing it. Now, it could have been

Brendan Curran: in the background. They could have been helping with that. But I don't ever remember seeing, you know, or hearing any mention of it. Brendan Curran: I don't, I'd be curious. I don't think Sarah, I don't know if Sarah remembers too much from that time. Cause we had friends that like, they would have been like, Brendan Curran: you know, Brendan Curran: making T-shirts for it and all out there. Because we did, yeah, we participate in protest. But I never remember that group being around.

Brendan Curran: Or- Abby Bowling: Were there- Brendan Curran: visible. Abby Bowling: other groups that did, like advertise for like membership? Or was it kind of more like informal, like, groups of friends would organize things, and people would hear about it, and get on board?

Brendan Curran: I'm sorry. What was the first part of the question? Abby Bowling: Were there groups that were specifically, like, advertising themselves as like activist or organization groups? Brendan Curran: No, no, there Brendan Curran: there weren't. We had,

Brendan Curran: there was groups that we had that we... There'd be causes that would come up, Brendan Curran: that would naturally fit for activism. I was there when we started, I was one of the founding members of the- I Brendan Curran: don't know what they're calling themselves now- but it was the Feminist Collective Brendan Curran: at that time. So I remember, you know,

Brendan Curran: our, you know, events would come from Brendan Curran: anything from Take Back the Night you know, typical, standard to... I'm trying to remember something that... Brendan Curran: to Brendan Curran: remember.

Brendan Curran: I don't remember an actual protest, like major protest, being organized Brendan Curran: by the Collective. Brendan Curran: But then it would be, or it would be seeing something that Brendan Curran: just was felt unjust, or an issue. I remember the Philosophy Forum would also often protest

Brendan Curran: things just, for Brendan Curran: I wouldn't say just... Brendan Curran: I know sometimes it seemed like Brendan Curran: it wasn't like a cause, like it wasn't like an anti-war rally. I remember there was a student government election going on.

Brendan Curran: And one of the candidates had said some very inflammatory remarks. Brendan Curran: And of course, now I'm looking back at it, you know, you know, as distance has faded, and I think like this is an SGA representative like, you know, like it's not like a member of Congress, who was going to, like some laws like, you know, it was just at Towson. But they said some things and we were just like, "Wow, that was some pretty crazy stuff!", how we would interpret it. And I still think it was, you know some, pretty Brendan Curran: hateful, hateful speech and if you're going to be a representative of a campus and all of campus, you're showing your hand that you there's segments of campus that you just don't respect. And I remember we protested that and called attention to it. And we, I'd say, we won. That person did not get elected. Brendan Curran: I think the rest of the ticket did, but they did not, so we chalked that one up for a W.

Brendan Curran: And... Brendan Curran: But on a side note, I remember bumping in years and years later to the President that went on that ticket. I was talking with them, and he had no recollection of that. He remembered it quite clearly, but he did not remember me. So it was, it was interesting. Brendan Curran: But so going back to your original point like, no, it was a lot of like the grassroots activism, which I would say would come from different groups on campus identifying with a cause or an issue, and that resonated, you know within the theme of their group. Whether that was a formal, like, SGA type of group, or just a circle of friends, and they would protest from there. Abby Bowling: Sorry about that.

Brendan Curran: Oh, no, I should- I forgot my disclaimer that I have two Great Pyrenees, so there might be barking that starts at any time, so. Abby Bowling: That's a-okay. Abby Bowling: Okay, so Abby Bowling: what would you say were the most

Abby Bowling: pressing issues on campus? What were people most Abby Bowling: kind of active around? Brendan Curran: Well, the election. So, when I was going to school the Iraq War was Brendan Curran: very much

Brendan Curran: at the forefront. Brendan Curran: And the election, it would have been going into... Brendan Curran: It was Brendan Curran: George W. Bush versus John Kerry

Brendan Curran: was the the election. So, that would have been, yeah, 2004. Was that fall of 2004? I believe so. So that was big. So there was a lot of... Brendan Curran: a lot. I say, there was a significant amount of Brendan Curran: discussion Brendan Curran: going around it, but there weren't like there weren't like sit-ins, or, you know, marches, you know, like there wasn't,

Brendan Curran: you know, people lining Osler drive with signs or anything like that. Brendan Curran: Where we saw where it would come out is Brendan Curran: it would be during... Brendan Curran: Like, a speaker would come to campus. And I remember Senator Cardin came to campus to speak.

Brendan Curran: And they had, Brendan Curran: I don't remember the group's name, it was like a Brendan Curran: women's group, they would wear pink. Brendan Curran: And they showed up that. So that was an outside organization. They weren't students,

Brendan Curran: but there wasn't a lot, even like there might be like some people like with signs outside. Brendan Curran: But, Brendan Curran: it wasn't like a... Brendan Curran: There was definitely people challenging, I remember, in the question and answer and comment period. But even then, there wasn't any like, "this speaker is coming." Well, hold on, I take that back!

Brendan Curran: So dealing with like the war, like when like government representatives would show up or decision makers, policy. Somebody within that kind of ecosystem that it would make sense given the the time frame of the Iraq War. There weren't protests going on with that. Brendan Curran: There were protests, so then, on the flip side, like people speakers coming in from personalities from- and I would. Brendan Curran: I would say- it was from the right, very conservative voices would come, and even if it wasn't like a affiliated event. Brendan Curran: There there would be and there were protests like outside the events. So it'd be like a...

Brendan Curran: And I don't want to, I know we're being recorded, so I don't want to throw out any names, jsut because I don't remember. But there was a female speaker, I remember. Brendan Curran: I remember she was prominent on conservative media, Brendan Curran: but she came to campus to speak. It was one of those kind of events that's in the Stevens Hall area, that it was they rented out. Like, some outside group not affiliated with Towson like rented the space. And there was a protest there Brendan Curran: with, I mean, like, there was like 50

Brendan Curran: of us out there. Brendan Curran: And that, and then I guess I showed my hand here because I was like, "Boy, I don't agree", but I was like, at the same time it's like, you know, "it's not like the university's endorsing this" or anything. And, you know, they're just talking, but... I gave it my all. I was like "I'm in", you know. So it was... but you would see that a lot. Like we'd go through it. So there wasn't Brendan Curran: the passion. There wasn't, where you would think there'd be huge, passionate, like issues with the the war going on there. There were not. Brendan Curran: And that's interesting. I don't know why that is.

Abby Bowling: Would you say like, would you describe campus as apathetic? Or was it more just like, Abby Bowling: it wasn't super Abby Bowling: connected, or like unified? Brendan Curran: I don't think it was apathetic.

Brendan Curran: So I was, I went to school later on. So, I was actually a veteran of the Iraq War coming in like, you know, to Towson. So you know, given that time and space, like I was very Brendan Curran: aware and it was almost... Because often there wasn't like, there was hardly any veterans at going to school at Towson. Brendan Curran: So I was like, I would say, like 'hypersensitive', I'd always be like on alert. I would, you know, downplay my status, my veteran, status. Because I didn't want- there's only so many times during the day you start getting asked like big policy questions. And I'm like, I don't think you understand, I was a staff sergeant. So it was uh... Brendan Curran: but, you never want to be that person in class that says "Well, I was!", and so it was...

Brendan Curran: Listen, I'd, you know, I'd be on the lookout, but I never, Brendan Curran: you know, I never personally Brendan Curran: saw anything. And I remember a professor in the Comm Department, Brendan Curran: you know, even like approached me was just like, "How are they treating you over there in the college of Liberal Arts? I bet they're making life hard". I'm like, "Yeah, what are you talking about?"

Brendan Curran: And he's like, "Well, you know, being in the military". And I'm like, "eh". He was, like, trying to like pull out of me that I was like being like discriminated against. I was like, no, that's not the case. I'm not having any of these these experiences that you imagine would be happening, Brendan Curran: you know. Far from that. So it was, uh... Brendan Curran: maybe at a time. So, Brendan Curran: oh...

Brendan Curran: I'm gonna blank. I'm blanking on her name, not Professor. She was a staff member, and her son died. He was killed in Iraq in the fall of 2004. Brendan Curran: And... Brendan Curran: I can't believe I can't remember her name. Brendan Curran: And so I remember they had a big a memorial like on campus, like reflection, like a vigil.

Brendan Curran: So, and there was no protest of that. So getting back to the point. Where was I? Brendan Curran: I don't think...people would love talking about. It was always a topic of conversation in class. Brendan Curran: And in speaking events, when people would come in, different speakers or different colloquiums, it was at the forefront. Torture, oh, my gosh, yeah, we'd have intense- I remember, a philosophy symposium built around torture. You know, talking about that. And it was, I mean, passionate discussions, students coming through. And, Brendan Curran: so those conversations were happening. Now I think,

Brendan Curran: I think it was disjointed. It was just the nature of the student body, you know, like who was there. I would suspect, based off the research I've done in the past 15 seconds in my head, that would be more of a... I would look closer towards that, just that Brendan Curran: disjointedness. Maybe another way to look at it- was it disjointed? Or it was just the sheer diversity of campus? Brendan Curran: That there's just so many different opinions Brendan Curran: and viewpoints and perspectives?

Brendan Curran: You could, probably, you know, it's that. Brendan Curran: How countering, you know, things you didn't agree with just manifested differently. Brendan Curran: I don't know. Abby Bowling: No, that's interesting. Something that Sarah said was that like,

Abby Bowling: the way campus worked just isn't how it is nowadays with social media. Like, it wasn't the case that just everyone knew everything. So there was a lot more, kind of, lax policies around expression. So people were saying a lot of things, but not everybody was always seeing it, and things didn't always travel. Abby Bowling: So that's interesting, too, because I mean, everybody would have taken advantage of that like you said, a diverse array of opinions. Brendan Curran: Yeah, I mean this was like, Facebook came, like, you know... Brendan Curran: there was Myspace around and everybody, you know everybody you know used Myspace. But it wasn't like Facebook, that was around like, yeah, 2004

Brendan Curran: when that start grabbing hold. And by 2007-I think like in 2006 I met my first person that had a then Twitter account. Brendan Curran: and I was like, you know, "What is this?" And, he was like, "You can just post what you think, right away!" And I'm like, "That's a terrible idea for me. I am not getting one of those!" And so, but yeah, so you know, it was definitely different like us, that era and that generation, how just social media it was just emerging. Brendan Curran: So it was, dare I say, innocent? It it was used to post, you know, parties, and you know, different, just Brendan Curran: items like that. It wasn't seen as a tool for social movement, or getting voices out, or getting people to know about

Brendan Curran: issues. Abby Bowling: Right. Abby Bowling: Okay, Abby Bowling: how involved or accessible was administration to students?

Abby Bowling: Like, how did you interact with administration, if at all? Brendan Curran: Administration. So you're talking administration, not like faculty, not professors. Abby Bowling: Yeah, like beyond professors, like higher ups, like President, Provost, those kinds of people. Brendan Curran: Okay,

Brendan Curran: I didn't...I had no idea who the Provost was Brendan Curran: during the time I was there. Brendan Curran: I... Brendan Curran: Dr. Caret was the President at the time,

Brendan Curran: and I got to know Dr. Caret from just being around campus. Brendan Curran: And Brendan Curran: I discovered that the administration cafeteria was like, nothing like the other cafeterias on campus, so I would go there and you know, interact with different people so. And then like, I wouldn't like, if I saw like Dr. Caret, I'd be like "Dr. Caret, how you doing? Brendan Curran!", you know, yeah, yeah. "Having lunch right now, what's going on?" So it was... Brendan Curran: And then, at, you know, a game like football games or sporting events would see, you know, would bump into him, but

Brendan Curran: I couldn't...but besides him... Brendan Curran: there was like... I don't remember. The Towerlight was still the newspaper. That was still like, you know, that was like the communication venue, for if there were items of interest, or protest, or not protest but the opinion pages were were ripe with with opinions Brendan Curran: of varying sources. And this was during the time when... Brendan Curran: Brian Salter was the editor in chief. Who now is... he was on... he went on to New York Times and then to CNN everything. So The Towerlight the reporting was fantastic.

Brendan Curran: And you know, I say, fantastic, for you know, what it was. We'd even hold up, I remember, being like, "Oh, yeah, I'm definitely gonna pick up a copy and we're gonna read it, see what's going on", and there's and there's controversies with that. I remember there was Brendan Curran: like a sex column "Between the Sheets" or something like that. And it was almost written like, in a way to, you know, to purposely Brendan Curran: just like, really, Brendan Curran: just to...

Brendan Curran: "We're gonna grab everybody's attention". And I was like, "Whatever". I didn't think much of it. But some people were like, "Oh, my gosh! Like this is like... too much!" And they were very small voices in class. But I remember turning to Professor Fuchs, and I was like "What do you think of all this?" He's like, "It happens every 10 years." Just like, okay, yeah. So the administration... Besides the President, I don't- I couldn't tell you. Brendan Curran: I couldn't tell or highlight too many people or any other people besides, I remember very fondly the woman in the VA office who Brendan Curran: would always make sure we had our GI bills recovered. They were fantastic. Brendan Curran: But that was...

Brendan Curran: that was Tracy Miller! Tracy Miller is whose son was killed in Iraq. He was a marine. Brendan Curran: She's retired now, but she's still active on campus, and she's around different events. She was an advisor. Brendan Curran: Especially, you know, when you went to do your audit, make sure you're on time to graduate, things like that. So I remember-I do remember her. I met her through some other... I don't remember how exactly I met her. It wasn't through getting like my classes audited. But she did do that for me, too. But yeah, there wasn't a lot of connective tissue there. Abby Bowling: When it came to like issues of activism or political issues, was...

Abby Bowling: I guess I'll expand it to faculty, since they were more involved in, you know, daily student life. But would you say that they Abby Bowling: supported or repressed any expression, or anything? Or was it kind of like a lax approach like a 'let the students say and Abby Bowling: police themselves' kind of deal. Brendan Curran: Oh, no, we had Dr. Paul Poyman

Brendan Curran: who is a friend of mine. He was in the philosophy department. His area of expertise was aesthetics, Brendan Curran: and he dabbled in, like, philosophy of science. Brendan Curran: He was... Brendan Curran: He was very into activism, went on to like, you know, the Occupy Movement while he was still professor, was heavily involved with that. He started the Baltimore Free Farm. He was one of the founding members of that.

Brendan Curran: He has since...he unfortunately passed away from, I believe, lung cancer not too long ago. Or- "not too long ago", it's been over a decade. Brendan Curran: But he... I mean he was always encouraging, Brendan Curran: for us to Brendan Curran: harness our voices and get out there. And very supportive

Brendan Curran: of Brendan Curran: of movements. Brendan Curran: As was Brendan Curran: Walt Fuchs. Who was part of that class of

Brendan Curran: Murungi, who's still with the Philosophy Department, Brendan Curran: Fuchs, and Jo-Ann Pilardi, who was with the Women's Studies Department Brendan Curran: and Philosophy Department. Jo-Ann has since retired. Walt unfortunately passed away, but Marugi still on campus. They all came down from Penn state got hired after their PhDs. They got their doctorates and rented a van and drove down. And they started teaching in like the late sixties. Like, you know, 1970. And this is like, they're... Brendan Curran: so they were children of that era. Walt Fuchs taught a course in Communism. Like, Communist philosophy,

Brendan Curran: like for the sole intent of like recruiting. It was..he was fantastic! He was so cool! By the way, this was my advisor. He was just your quintessential philosophy professor, up until the end. So, I mean, so this... was... they were the ones that were very Brendan Curran: always very supportive. Our philosophy professors were. I don't remember any other professors Brendan Curran: encouraging, Brendan Curran: you know, that kind of action, though.

Abby Bowling: Okay. Abby Bowling: Is philosophy what you studied at Towson? Brendan Curran: Yes, I was a philosophy major, yes. Abby Bowling: Okay. What other kinds of majors were kind of active in those discussions of that nature? Sarah mentioned, like "the Linthicum majors". So I'm assuming, you know, philosophy professors, like maybe Poli sci professors. Anything on that?

Brendan Curran: Yeah, there was...soL, ithium hall housed the College of Liberal Arts for the most part. So Brendan Curran: you would see, you know. Brendan Curran: the usual suspects. Philosophy, Women's Studies, Sociology, and then bleeding out like, to psychology. And you know, political science... I didn't see a lot represented from the Political Science crowd. I knew a lot of political science majors. Brendan Curran: I would say another college going through it was the College of Fine Arts, like the theater department,

Brendan Curran: going through was Brendan Curran: heavily represented during a lot of activities. Brendan Curran: But I think that- and maybe that's showing my hand- because most of the activities I was involved in were, like, you know... what I was very passionate about was, Brendan Curran: you know, issues with gays in the military.

Brendan Curran: You know. Brendan Curran: Uh, LGBT issues. So these were very... I was very active in that. And there's a large population in the college. So that would make sense. Yeah, I don't remember any other, you know, majors Brendan Curran: being out there. I remember, like, people would roll their eyes, like "Ugh, philosophy majors." And we're always like, you know... Brendan Curran: Yeah. But that was cool. We wore that like a badge of honor.

Abby Bowling: Can you elaborate at all on the work you did around LGBT military issues? Brendan Curran: Oh, my gosh! So I'd do a lot with Outserve, which, of course, is not a student group. Brendan Curran: But, you know, I took this responsibility of being an ally. We had this...Outserve was helping to overturn, not just overturn Don't Ask Don't Tell, but have people be Brendan Curran: openly be able to be themselves in the military.

Brendan Curran: So here I was, I was still in the military, Brendan Curran: and I was an ally. I was like, "What can they do to me?" I mean, I can be outspoken. I can give a voice to those that don't have a voice. Brendan Curran: So I was very proud of that, and I was very active in that. Brendan Curran: The flip side is when I tried to...

Brendan Curran: it was- well, I laugh- it was a really cool experience. I went to start a military and veterans organization on campus with the SGA, like get funding and everything. Why? I don't know. I thought maybe we could have some happy hours or something. And again, the very few veterans were like, "Yeah, that sounds great. We can get Towson to pay for our fun? Okay, let's do that." And I remember going to an SGA hearing, Brendan Curran: and I was challenged Brendan Curran: about like, you know, well... Brendan Curran: the record of what you've done is... It was the Queer Student Union that was challenging me. And Jo-Ann Pilardi was there. And, like, you know.. "the offenses that you've done, and, you know, your history." I'm like, "I'm sorry I wasn't..." I was thinking of this mindset of campus,

Brendan Curran: and I was just like, "Did I...? You know, if something happened, I apologize." I'm not sure what was going on there they're talking about Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I was like "No, no, no, that's like, you know, Brendan Curran: this is just a veteran group on campus!" Brendan Curran: So that's like a different argument. And they're like, "Well, that's like, you know, you kind of represent that." Brendan Curran: But it was cool talk, because then I was able to call in the big guns. My friend Colleen, who's trans and a Navy veteran would come in and gave the follow up meeting to that, she presented there. So I was like, "uh oh!". So it was...it was cool. Yeah, because, actually... I think about the veterans and

Brendan Curran: like almost half were in the LGBT community and such. And that was, we're talking very small numbers. But so Brendan Curran: it was interesting where people chose to challenge things within the student government. Brendan Curran: And I wonder if there's any other groups that experience that. Like, taking broader issues that are outside the campus and framing them around, say, like a student group. Brendan Curran: What comes to mind is

Brendan Curran: a group that I was not involved in that came right after me. It was still in that time where I had friends on campus. Brendan Curran: And I did not agree with the group myself at all. Brendan Curran: Was it was Students for Western Civilization, Brendan Curran: I think they were called.

Brendan Curran: And Brendan Curran: they were like "We always have trouble drawing a line. Where does that line exist?" like "We'll know when we see it." I'm like, "I think we see it, everybody. I think we see a line." And I was... Brendan Curran: I graduated and I was furious. I'm still upset to this day that that has been Brendan Curran: almost erased.

Brendan Curran: The background- and for some like, you know, I would say, like sensitivities with people involved- Brendan Curran: on, you know, how that group came to be on campus, Brendan Curran: and what that group...how, Brendan Curran: you know, the fears that everyone had

Brendan Curran: came true. It was... you knew that they were... Brendan Curran: who they actually were, and they were lying behind some other, you know, narratives. Brendan Curran: And... Brendan Curran: certain faculty members decided- a certain faculty member- decided to take that their cause up.

Brendan Curran: And I think all those founders that were Towson students are Brendan Curran: either still in prison or have been released for different Brendan Curran: acts they've done Brendan Curran: since they've departed Towson University.

Abby Bowling: I didn't know that they were active, that early. I was more familiar with the White Student Union that was around in like, 2012 to like 2015. Brendan Curran: I think so. Abby Bowling: That might be their, like, predecessor. Brendan Curran: I'm not sure. I don't know what came first. I remember there was... it was the same argument. So if I graduated in '07... so yeah, it would have been around like 2011, 10. This probably, it came up, and I thought the group's name was Students for Western Civilization,

Brendan Curran: And I don't know if that was then morphed into the White Student Union, or if the White Student Union morphed into Students for Western Civilization, or... You know, "Western Civilization", that's sticking in my head. It was something that was like a national, Brendan Curran: like, Brendan Curran: sponsor, or affiliated type activity. Brendan Curran: But it was, yeah, it was pretty shocking. And I remember, you know, I still had friends that were in school.

Brendan Curran: And like, you know, you'd see it. Now, social media has become more advanced, and now you're seeing it posted on social media. And like, alumni were looking back. Recent alumni were like, "What is going on? Brendan Curran: What is happening?" And it's... Brendan Curran: you know, calling like. Brendan Curran: "what are the students doing back there!" Like...

Brendan Curran: like this, this has to be, like, challenged at all levels. So it was very.. yeah. It's you know, it's kind of that...it's a nasty mark, I think, on Brendan Curran: Towson's history, and you know, lucky that Brendan Curran: we got out as unscathed from what that could have turned into. Abby Bowling: Yeah.

Brendan Curran: It was...but yeah. So I think of that group often, and I'm often reminded of it for different reasons. But unfortunately, but it's... Brendan Curran: yeah. It's a shame. It didn't, you know, Brendan Curran: like, what lessons were learned from that? And what lessons can we learn? And would those lessons like, you know, still apply? Like I wouldn't... I don't want to forget that history at the same time. Abby Bowling: Yeah, definitely.

Abby Bowling: Was there a lot of student resistance to that group? Like, did Abby Bowling: opposing students kind of speak out against it? Or was it like a accepted thing that people know, like, Abby Bowling: we leave them, we don't talk about them? Or what was what was kind of the campus attitude towards them? Brendan Curran: At the time...so now I'm not on campus anymore, so I'm only interacting through social media with friends that are on campus

Brendan Curran: or reading about it in like the Towerlight, so. And I'm not even in... I think I'm living in Colorado at the time. So you know of course...I remember they were challenged, and there were protests, there were Brendan Curran: calls for them to be removed. And Brendan Curran: yeah. Brendan Curran: I'm trying to remember what actually came out from there... I remember, because with Freedom Square, I can't remember when that came into existence.

Brendan Curran: That would have been at the tail...that might have been like a result from that... Brendan Curran: I don't know. I might be connecting things that aren't, you know, connected at all. Abby Bowling: Okay. Abby Bowling: That's interesting because that's kind of a shift away from the social media is about, you know, talking to your friends and posting about parties to 'we're using this to share this information' and like

Abby Bowling: why it's dangerous. Brendan Curran: Yeah, that is the first...yeah. That event was the first time that in regards to Towson University that I saw social media go from, you know, "Hey, these are parties", "This is a colloquium, a forum, talk going on" to Brendan Curran: "Hey, we need to mobilize Brendan Curran: against this."

Brendan Curran: And also the "this"- using social media for their messaging and rhetoric. Abby Bowling: Okay, were you involved at all in the Aramark Abby Bowling: organization on campus, Abby Bowling: the living wage

Abby Bowling: campaigns? Brendan Curran: I was not, and the only reason I can think I wasn't is because Brendan Curran: the contract was- Brendan Curran: it was... Negotiations were either before I got there, or after I got there. So I might have missed the gap. Like, whatever you know. I graduated in three years,

Brendan Curran: so Brendan Curran: probably, you know, would have lined up with their contract talks too. Brendan Curran: So I was not involved with it, but I remember... I have recollections of stories about it, and people being active. Brendan Curran: No, yeah, I

Brendan Curran: know there was a groundswell of a student support for the employees Brendan Curran: and it was vocal. I'm trying to remember what it was... I know it happened after... there was an instance after I graduated in '07, so I'm not sure before then what happened. Abby Bowling: Got it. Abby Bowling: Alright. Well, that's kind of all that I had written down to talk to you about. Is there anything I didn't ask that you would like to share?

Brendan Curran: Oh. Brendan Curran: No, it's, you know, I really enjoyed the conversation. I enjoyed taking those trips down memory lane. Like trying to, you know, like is that...? Did it really happen like that or is that just how I'm remembering things? I will take a look on my bookshelf to see if I can find this book. So I have this picture of this person that I'm now calling Jordan, but probably isn't named Jordan in there. You know, big time activist, Brendan Curran: super cool. Like, dreads coming down... living in San Francisco. And just like, yeah, he... I was just like, "Wow! This guy's cool." And Brendan Curran: I'll just look on my bookshelf because I remember it was almost like a pamphlet type length of book to see if that's in there.

Brendan Curran: But did Sarah provide you with any of those names that might have been involved with the... Brendan Curran: that other group? Abby Bowling: Yeah. So that was going to be my next question to you. She Abby Bowling: gave me a contact for Nick Sokolow and Justin Schwemmer.

Brendan Curran: Yep. Brendan Curran: And Justin... So Justin, yeah, he... So, Nick would have been around for, Brendan Curran: like, he was on campus before I was. Brendan Curran: So he would have been around there for...

Brendan Curran: he was on campus for 9/11, and I remember, yeah, he was definitely involved Brendan Curran: with that group at some point. He's now an attorney, so. I can't remember if he's with the State Attorney's office right now or not. Brendan Curran: I want to say he is. Justin's also an attorney, now that I think about it. So yeah, those 2 were definitely... Justin, of course, was after Nick, he was in there a while, but Justin might have some insight on the Students for Western Civilization. Brendan Curran: And if Aramark was

Brendan Curran: protest was going on that time, Justin definitely would have been involved with it. Brendan Curran: And he would have, yeah, he would have more insights, I think, like on Brendan Curran: less Brendan Curran: publicized groups and everything.

Brendan Curran: Justin was like... He'd like leave...he'd have made-up flyers, like advertising interdisciplinary studies that just didn't exist with courses that didn't exist and like post them around campus. So he was a character. But yeah, those are definitely two good names to track down. And you have their- you actually have their emails and everything? Abby Bowling: Yep, I do. Brendan Curran: Okay. Abby Bowling: She also mentioned Matt Durrington, more in passing. I'm not sure if he was as involved.

Brendan Curran: I do not know. I do not know Matt. Abby Bowling: Okay. And then as far as faculty. So I have Dr. Pilardi, of course. Dr. Steve Scales, also philosophy? Brendan Curran: Yes! So, Brendan Curran: Steve, he would be a good person to talk to, and especially to get like, you know... I wanna share...

Brendan Curran: I think he shared it... Brendan Curran: No, uh... Brendan Curran: Kristen. What was Kristen's last name? She is a professor in the department right now, she shared an office with Paul Pojman. Brendan Curran: But Steve would be able to give some definite insights into

Brendan Curran: Paul's activism and, Brendan Curran: you know, relationships, you know, and how he empowered students get their voices out there. So definitely. And I don't know. Murungi, he might be a good person to talk to as well. But you can go to, I caution you. Brendan Curran: Oh, this is being recorded. I won't say. Well, you will go down a rabbit hole quick, so leave breadcrumbs outside that office door. Yeah, but I think he'd be a good person to, you know, fill in for you know, seeing that throughout the seventies, and you know, up until today. Like, what that looks like. Brendan Curran: That's interesting. Yeah, definitely, all good people. Yeah, Steve. And you can blame me on that like "This Brendan Curran said I should talk to you." But yeah...he is... I'd be interested in his insights.

Abby Bowling: Yeah. Is there anyone else you would recommend I reach out to? Brendan Curran: Hmm! That would be good for this... Brendan Curran: In the Political Science Department Donn Worgs, Brendan Curran: he might be a good person to talk to. I don't remember... He was never- he was one of those professors. He would always play it down the middle

Brendan Curran: and he would purposely never try to tip his hand. He'd always encourage discussions Brendan Curran: in the class. And he was involved, but I think... I'd be interested to... I think he'd be able to provide a interesting perspective, like to fill in some of those gaps, Brendan Curran: and why there maybe wasn't more of a Brendan Curran: like, outcry. You know, like...

Brendan Curran: how are you supposed to protest the Iraq War? Like, all we had to go on was maybe like what we saw in movies from the Vietnam war, or something like that. So it was, Brendan Curran: you know, Brendan Curran: it was never... Brendan Curran: Yeah it was different, there'd be challenges, but it was never like, in your face. There was never anything in your face, either which way, when I was on campus.

Brendan Curran: So... Brendan Curran: is that just nobody cares? Or is it just...is it something else? I refuse to believe that it was nobody caring. Abby Bowling: I also lean that way. Abby Bowling: I mean, even like,

Abby Bowling: I don't know. It seems like students cared a lot. And even in an environment where, you know, large scale organizing wasn't happening, doesn't mean that like, Abby Bowling: conversations weren't happening. Brendan Curran: Yeah. Brendan Curran: So there was tons of great conversations. And I remember those conversations, always, usually like went back to a restaurant, you know, to a bar, and always carried over. In the philosophy department, our professors were so accessible.

Brendan Curran: So we were, you know, over at their houses Brendan Curran: all the time, they'd be at ours. Brendan Curran: It was so... Brendan Curran: The classroom was like one setting, but then you had like,

Brendan Curran: as much learning going on outside the classroom with them, you know, just sitting there drinking coffee, or, you know, a cocktail and just discussing philosophy. Life. That's where we had some great like, just current issue talks. Brendan Curran: So yeah. Abby Bowling: That's kind of what I got from Sarah, too. She was saying, activism was less of an identifier and more of a hobby. Abby Bowling: It seems like you're talking about it in a very social sense as well, like...

Brendan Curran: Yeah, it sounds bad, I guess, in a way. But it wasn't, Brendan Curran: you know... Maybe we're lucky we didn't have to be. We weren't in a position where it was...we had... Brendan Curran: there was like something so, so, so glaring. Brendan Curran: We're not talking like the Civil Rights movement.

Brendan Curran: But it's... Brendan Curran: you know, we didn't have... Brendan Curran: While we had our things we spoke out against, Brendan Curran: there wasn't a...

Brendan Curran: there wasn't something in the sphere of our influence, so much. Brendan Curran: Like, Aramark would have been that. That's why I say "I know somebody", I don't think it was my time. Brendan Curran: But yeah, it's... Brendan Curran: It's almost like... it was like our side hustle.

Brendan Curran: To take up Brendan Curran: arms when needed. So we put it on ourselves as philosophy majors to do this. That's why nobody can stand us. "Who puts you in charge of protesting?" "Nobody! We just decided to do it!" Brendan Curran: We put ourselves in charge of it. Abby Bowling: I'm curious, like, I don't want to dive too deep back into it, I know we're kind of running out of time. But I'm curious if that impacted, like, the urgency of things? Like, you're saying, you know, "We were lucky that it wasn't a pressing matter where we needed to take, you know, drastic actions", but there were definitely times on campus where, like matters were pressing enough to warrant that kind of action. So it's

Abby Bowling: kind of an interesting period, because it seems to be almost... Abby Bowling: not inactive by any means, but almost in between two very, you know, tense, polarized moments. Brendan Curran: Yeah, it's... we always...we're trapped in the present. And, you know, looking back, I'm like, "Wow!" There's a kind of like a law there. Like, Brendan Curran: how'd that happen? And I mean,

Brendan Curran: maybe it was, you know, maybe people were just, you know, lost. The war's going on so long, so few people were involved with it, not a connection to the war on campus. Brendan Curran: That didn't resonate with the student body. Brendan Curran: And I will say with that- I often was the only person in the military that most of my classmates knew, Brendan Curran: that they ever interacted with. So I think there's something there.

Abby Bowling: Yeah Brendan Curran: With that as well. Abby Bowling: Sarah pointed that out. I mean, she said, you were like a great connector, and you kind of made people think about the military in a different way. So I- Brendan Curran: That makes sense.

Abby Bowling: -think that was impactful. Whether that was intentional or just, you know, the way you are being shaped by what you experienced. But I thought that was something interesting that she said. Brendan Curran: Oh, cool. Brendan Curran: I'm glad. Yeah, that was uh... Brendan Curran: It was fun. Yeah, you get to just tell the story.

Abby Bowling: Alright. Well, that's all that I have for you. Abby Bowling: Any last questions, comments? Brendan Curran: I appreciate it. You know, hopefully that gives you something to work with. Abby Bowling: Yeah, absolutely.

Brendan Curran: If anything comes up I will send you an email. Brendan Curran: And please, if there's anything you need in your follow up, don't hesitate. Brendan Curran: Let me know. And yeah, I'll be happy to track anything that's important, any which way, shape or form. Abby Bowling: Thank you.

Brendan Curran: No problem. Abby Bowling: All right. Brendan Curran: Have a great day. Abby Bowling: Have a great Halloween.