Interview with Barbara Clark

Speaker 1: Barbara Ann Clark graduated from Towson State College in 1972 with a bachelor's degree in elementary education. Miss Clark served as a teacher and administrator in the Baltimore County Public Schools for over 30 years. In 2005, she came to Towson University as a member of the Towson Learning Network. Speaker 1: These are her reflections. Karen Blair: Miss Clark, thank you for sharing your thoughts about your teacher preparation at Towson University and your subsequent career in education. We're in the process of trying to enrich our understanding of teacher education at Towson University and this will be a significant contribution to that effort. Karen Blair: First thing, I thought a good place to begin is in the beginning, and so if you would be so kind as to share a little bit about your social context, where you grew up, the point in time when you started thinking, maybe I'll become a teacher, and why you selected Towson University.

Barbara Ann Clark: All right. Thank you. Well, I grew up in Churchville, Maryland, outside of Bel Air, went to Churchville Elementary School, rural area, blue collar, working family. My dad was a mechanic at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Barbara Ann Clark: and so certainly I grew up in a very simple life, simple lifestyle. I do recall as a young child he had a cousin that visited from North Carolina who was a teacher, and she came armed with a huge bag of spelling tests to grade and she allowed me to help her. And I just thought that was the coolest thing. Barbara Ann Clark: So from that point on, I was a pretty gregarious little child, I asked my teachers at school. I was in the third grade, and those teachers said, sure, we'll let you help us grade papers. And then the grading papers went to cleaning up bulletin boards, helping other kids, cleaning up bulleting boards and blackboards, helping other students with work. Barbara Ann Clark: And I knew when I was in the third grade that I wanted to be a teacher. And I consider myself very lucky to have made a career choice at such a young age.

Barbara Ann Clark: And then from there, when I was in high school, I, you know, president of the future teachers of America. And we tutored children in a little church in Bel Air. And did that sort of thing. But I thought, now, I know I want to be in a caring profession and nurturing professional. Maybe I'll try candy striping because maybe it's a nurse. Barbara Ann Clark: Maybe because, you know, back then it was teacher, nurse, or a secretary, so I did probably about three months at Harford Memorial Hospital decided, nah, I didn't want to be a candy striper. The smells, what you had to endure. I said no. It really is a teacher. So that was my decision. Barbara Ann Clark: The reason Towson was certainly one for economical reasons. They did have the teachers’ pledge back then, but if it had not even been for that, that's just where you went if you were going to be a teacher, was the state teachers’ college. I knew it was, you know, certainly a place that I had friends Barbara Ann Clark: and other teachers that I admired at Bel Air High School and various places. That's where you went to school. And it was close. I was not able to live on campus, though, and that was a challenge, because, by the way the crow flies, I wasn't in that radius. And when I came to Towson, it was too crowded.

Barbara Ann Clark: And I had six, seven roommates. They put us up on Western Run Drive which was an apartment complex off of Western Run Drive and towards the Pikesville area. And we, as Towson University students, there were two apartments. We were college students. We had dorm regulations. Barbara Ann Clark: But we lived with regular residents. Now, that was a challenge. Barbara Ann Clark: And my family, I'll never forget this. And I tell my dad often, you know, we were certainly not wealthy. He gave me the family car, which was a 64 Chevy, to drive because we had to drive the Beltway. And I was the only one truly from this area. Most of them- One girl came from Connecticut, one from DC, all over. Barbara Ann Clark: So my dad sacrificed the family car for me to drive from Western Run Drive to Towson, and that was that first whole year when I was a freshman.

Barbara Ann Clark: That was a challenge. Unexpected challenge. I knew it would be hard studying, but I didn't think that living would be such a challenge. So that was kind of an interesting twist. I think they've ended that soon after that. Yeah. Because when we were punished, because we did have an RA that would come visit us, we all had to stay in, Barbara Ann Clark: in this apartment. With all the other residents there around us. Yes, it was quite interesting. Karen Blair: And how many of you were in the apartment? Barbara Ann Clark: Ah, there were seven. There were seven in ours, and there were eight in the one next door. Yes.

Barbara Ann Clark: So that was a different twist on my introduction to college life. Yeah. Yeah. Karen Blair And that only lasted for a year? Then I moved to Linden Terrace. I rented a room off of Linden Terrace. So I was closer to campus then. So that helped. Karen Blair: And you did that for the rest of your time? Barbara Ann Clark: The rest of the years. Karen Blair: So you knew coming in that you wanted to be a teacher, and this was an elementary level teacher? when you got here, of course, you had to take all of your general liberal arts requirements. And then you got into your education courses.

Karen Blair: And I'm hoping that you can recall those courses, at least a little bit, and my question to you is in remembering them, were they more theoretical or were they sort of much more practical in nature? And second thing, did you have any opportunity to interact with children before you did your student teaching, was that incorporated into the curriculum at all? Barbara Ann Clark: OK, good question. Yes, the first two years, all the general courses, grade point average wasn't that great. Got to my junior year into the education courses and from then on you know had straight A's and whatever because that's what I wanted to do. Barbara Ann Clark: I thought about it. It was definitely a practical experience. You know, lots of time spent in this library looking over curriculum from other counties, looking at teacher editions, planning out lesson plans and that sort of thing. So it was really very practical training. Barbara Ann Clark: Then, you know, in our junior year, we did that one week kind of experience out in the schools.

Barbara Ann Clark: Yes, there was observation, but soon they got us into taking over a spelling lesson. OK, let's give you a spelling lesson, and you can have reading if you'd like. And eventually we worked our way up in that one day a week to teaching most of the day. So it was very practical, very hands on. And it was a variety of places. Barbara Ann Clark: We went to Howard County, because you know, open space had just started around that time. So one of the places we went was to Howard County and various grade levels, but they got us into those classrooms and we were doing things. Barbara Ann Clark: Now, I don't know if that was Towson's doing, Barbara Ann Clark: or maybe it was the teacher being very willing to let this observer be a participant in her class. It could have been a little bit of both. Yeah. So it was very hands on and I loved it, to say the least.

Karen Blair: So you said, hmm, this was the right fit. Karen Blair: Do you remember anything specifically that hung with you, or turned out to be very useful in your career? Or do you remember any professors that sort of stood out as role models for how you thought you might want to teach yourself? Barbara Ann Clark: Well, it was interesting when I was thinking back, Dr. Binko, I had him probably my last year, that would been about 72, and I'm not sure when he started, but it was an independent study and I thought, I've never… Barbara Ann Clark: No one’s ever told me just to take the semester, go off, research, do whatever you want.

Barbara Ann Clark: That was so unusual, ‘cause it was very structured, of course, here, and I grew up in a very structured educational program. So here is this man giving us permission to go out there and to, you know, pursue… It was kind of like the action research, beginnings of action research, which I thought was really neat, Barbara Ann Clark: and unusual, and I found it very beneficial because I thought, well, the kids were given a little more freedom in what they were interested in pursuing, that maybe this was a good thing because I found out that I still put time and effort into that course, Barbara Ann Clark: and I was doing it on attention deficit disorder, because that was just starting to come around and, you know, experienced it in the in the schools and that sort of thing. So I had an opportunity to do my research on that. And I thought that was really, back then in 72, this is quite innovative. Barbara Ann Clark: I liked it, and so I can recall when I was a classroom teacher, you know, giving children time and choices to pursue things like that in a guided sort of way, but giving them that freedom and nobody had ever done that before. So that's one that always stuck out in my mind.

Barbara Ann Clark: And of course, then I got my masters here In reading, and I loved the way the whole program was designed. Barbara Ann Clark: It was great. Karen Blair: So here you are, the end of your education. How are you feeling about your preparedness to become a teacher? Barbara Ann Clark: I thought about that too. Certainly had lots of practice and experience in that planning part, which was crucial, you know, planning out, strategizing.

Barbara Ann Clark: Mapping out a unit of study. Barbara Ann Clark: I thought that was so beneficial because, you know, even though the curriculum is given to you when you become a teacher, and it's pretty structured, you still had to do that planning piece and had to, you know, map it out and do that sequentially. I thought I really had a handle on that. Barbara Ann Clark: The part I didn't have so much was… And, and the children were better behaved back then. You know, they really were. They truly sat in their seats and they were. But I didn't have probably enough education in the area of learning styles, differentiating instruction, even back then, Barbara Ann Clark: knowing more about the different ways kids would learn.

Barbara Ann Clark: When they would learn reading or they would learn math. So that was one area I thought, I'm not so hot on this. I'm going to have to do it on my own. Research it. That's why I came to Towson to get my reading degree, because I wanted to understand more about the reader. Karen Blair: Mm-hmm. Did you have an opportunity to work with different grade levels or different kinds of students when you did your student teaching? Barbara Ann Clark: That's interesting too. I was at Matthew Henson down in the city. Barbara Ann Clark: And I was in a first grade class, and my supervisor, coordinating teacher, her husband passed away.

Barbara Ann Clark: Right in the middle of my student teaching. And they thought well, instead of us getting a substitute, we'll just let Barbara take the class. So I learn how to be the teacher in charge for almost a month. And it was when they had the Initial Teaching Alphabet just came into being. Barbara Ann Clark: ITA, yeah, those 16 character kind of things. And so I really did become the teacher of record for that period of time. So I did not switch to another grade, even though some of my partners that came from Towson, we had a carpool, they were switching. I stayed. Barbara Ann Clark: The principal felt comfortable enough to leave me in that classroom, and so did the wonderful lady that I worked with, and I thought what a bet- I was ready for it. Barbara Ann Clark: Bring it on. No, let me do this. I can do this. And so that's how I spent my student teaching. And I loved it. Every minute, you know, because I always thought I could be in charge even when I was in the third grade.

Barbara Ann Clark: So it was OK. Barbara Ann Clark: Yeah. I know. That was a little different. Karen Blair: Uh-huh. Karen Blair: Different experience. Well, so of course an ITA is a very structured program, reading program. So that was kind of useful too. So that you really followed a script to some extent.

Barbara Ann Clark: I did. Barbara Ann Clark: Learned a lot about classroom management at that point in time. Karen Blair: Yes, OK. And that came out of really this hands on experience. Barbara Ann Clark: Right. And because the gal that I replaced, she was an elderly woman and she was loving but stern. So those children did exactly… And plus it was an all African American school. She was too. So it's like, OK, now she's removed. So I had to learn really quick how to establish myself as the teacher.

Karen Blair: I guess so. Barbara Ann Clark: And it, you know, it came pretty easily, though, I was surprised. I didn't have any issues with that. Karen Blair: So, well, maybe she had them sort of in shape when you took over. Barbara Ann Clark: I think it was about November when that happened, so.

Karen Blair: Well, and that's an important sort of trial by fire for new teachers, but didn't expect it in… Barbara Ann Clark: I think the rules and regulations were probably a little different back in… Karen Blair: I would think so. Barbara Ann Clark: That was in 71, that fall of 71, yes.

Karen Blair: Yes, I don't know that we would entrust a class to a student teacher. Barbara Ann Clark: No, not this day and age. Karen Blair: 2012. Don't think that's going to happen. Barbara Ann Clark: But a great learning experience. So it was wonderful.

Karen Blair: Yeah. So where did you start teaching? You had said earlier in a conversation with me that you had a contract before you even graduated. Barbara Ann Clark: April. I had already signed a contract with Baltimore County. I knew that I was going to be at Elmwood Elementary School in the northeast part of Baltimore County, even before I graduated. Barbara Ann Clark: So I was hitting the education needing of teachers at the right time in my life. You know, they needed teachers. They needed to fill those positions. I had great letters of recommendation. I had wonderful grades the second half of my college career. So I already had a contract. Barbara Ann Clark: So that was good.

Karen Blair: Yes. Karen Blair: And what grade did you get? Barbara Ann Clark: I taught first grade. Karen Blair: Oh, first grade again.

Barbara Ann Clark: For 12 years. And then I moved to 3rd grade in the Southeast part in Dundalk area for two years, and then I moved on as a resource teacher and became an administrator. But they didn't have mentor teachers back then, Barbara Ann Clark: so you really relied on your fellow neighboring teachers who had experience to teach you how to teach phonics, to, how to, you know, teach math. We were big into learning centers back then, so we would spend our free time, our summers getting together, coloring, cutting, pasting, making stations. I mean, it was truly our life. Barbara Ann Clark: And I had wonderful teachers that taught me how to be… One of them, I still visit. She lives in Oakcrest and her name is Kathy Perano. Her name was Kathy Miller. She was a student here. She came to Towson. Wonderful gal. And she just had to sell her house in Bel Air. And they moved to Oakcrest. And in a message she said, I actually still had things from first grade. Barbara Ann Clark: And she's like 78 years old. You know, when she taught first grade. So I had a wonderful teacher.

Karen Blair: So you really did sort of have an informal mentor. Barbara Ann Clark: And friend. Karen Blair: And maybe that's why we are thinking that mentoring is so important. Karen Blair: It's just feedback from folks who said, I didn't have an official mentor, but people were good.

Barbara Ann Clark: And we had large classrooms then. I can remember my first year, 40 students. Absolutely. 40 students. Barbara Ann Clark: And that school became a title one school. And so then we received parent helpers, instructional assistants, to help. But those were large classrooms and there would be, you know, like five first grade classes. And I mean, there were a lot of kids, thus the need for teachers then. Karen Blair: And what was the socioeconomic background? Karen Blair: Because you were in northeast, right?

Barbara Ann Clark: Yes, the northeast. But we drew from the Garden village, which was right over the city line. So it was a lower economic area. Yeah, that's the title one influence. Karen Blair: Right, eventually, yeah, you got that designation. Barbara Ann Clark: And it was about 30% African American then, and it's much larger now. And that was pretty much the two populations. Barbara Ann Clark: I did happen to have a Korean child in my class one year, because her dad was going to be a doctor and he was here for his little internship, and they were living in that area. So she was a great experience for all of us. You know, we were learning some other culturals and things. It wasn't too diverse back then, you know.

Barbara Ann Clark: So it was great experience. Karen Blair: And then you went to Dundalk. Barbara Ann Clark: Uh huh. For two years. Open space school. So I got to experience that well. Karen Blair: I have asked anybody who's had that kind of experience what they thought of the open space experience, and I guess I have the same question for you.

Barbara Ann Clark: We were in open space, but we made walls. We made walls with bookcases, with the stackables, with whatever. We did, because there would always be those kids that would be distracted by any other sound that was going on, and plus myself, because one of the teachers, I remember she had such a booming voice that, Barbara Ann Clark: you know, I’d just get lost in my own thinking. So we made our own barriers. Barbara Ann Clark: You know. Nut it was great for sharing, once again, was kind of a mentoring thing. And in that group was an older woman returning to teaching after 17 years, myself, who had already had 12 years, and then a first year teacher. So we had a nice bond. Barbara Ann Clark: It was really great.

Barbara Ann Clark: So I did learn a lot from there, but from there I moved on to being a resource teacher. Karen Blair: And a title one. And what is a title one resource teacher? Barbara Ann Clark: Well, it was at those schools, you know, and it's all based on what they call FARM, the indexed on free and reduced lunches. So there were quite, it's always in the corridors, you know, around the city. So it was, you know, the northeast, into the southeast, southwest, northwest, Barbara Ann Clark: all around that corridor were our title one schools, and as a resource teacher, we were managing budgets.

Barbara Ann Clark: We were making sure that students who were identified as needing extra help in either reading or math were receiving extra services by a trained parent helper, which was part of our job, to train them, and train instructional assistants. So we did that training piece, Barbara Ann Clark: but probably the most important I found of that job was the parenting. That's when we started all those parent groups. Barbara Ann Clark: And I did, called Journey Through Selfhood. It was about self-esteem, helping parents nurture their children, self-esteem, and about how to spend quality time with your kids even though you didn't have quantity. So I would do PTA meetings because that was my little gig as a resource teacher that I did. Barbara Ann Clark: Some others did, you know, things on reading, some did math. We all had kind of a specialty, and mine was a parent one, which grew into my own business.

Barbara Ann Clark: The Corporate Family Connection, myself, another resource teacher, and a gal from Harford County. We formed this business and for three years we would, on our days off, we would go to like, Ralph’s and Company, McCormick. We would set up parenting libraries in their faculty pavilion. Barbara Ann Clark: Wherever they had their lunch room. And we would do brown bag seminars. Yeah. And one was about reading with your child. One gal did that, one gal did things on math, and I did the self-esteem. Barbara Ann Clark: So we were, you know, touching all three things during these brown bag seminars. Barbara Ann Clark: So that went on for a couple of years, very successful, but we could only do it the days that we were off. And then I was promoted to assistant principal and that was just too much work and that ended. But it was great, and it's something that all parents need, all the time, forever, you know.

Barbara Ann Clark: So we're hitting the working parent. Barbara Ann Clark: So that was very exciting. So I think those were truly my most creative years, those six, because I had, once again, that Dr. Binko model of freedom, you know, innovation, study your research, put it together, do your own thing. Barbara Ann Clark: And it was, you know, it was quite successful. Karen Blair: At some point, though, somebody suggested moving into administration, and how did that come about?

Karen Blair: And did you think that this was a route that you would travel? Barbara Ann Clark: Well, and I always, on my worst days as administrator, I’d call my father up and I'd say it's all your fault because my dad used to say to me, now, remember, he was a mechanic. He came from the mountains of North Carolina, but he always had high expectations, you know. And he would say to me, Barbara Ann Clark: you don't want to be just the classroom teacher. No. You want to be the principal. Barbara Ann Clark: That's what he said to me when I was young. So that always stuck in my head. So when I'd have those bad days as a principal, I'd call him up.

Barbara Ann Clark: And say it's all your fault. Barbara Ann Clark: But that truly is where it came from, and plus, as a resource teacher, you were in a leadership role. Barbara Ann Clark: You truly were the confidant of that schoolhouse principal. That's how Karen Schaefer and I became such good friends. I was her resource teacher. She confided in me. We would talk about educational things. Instruction piece. You know, what do you think about this? And I had that kind of relationship with all the principals that I worked with. Karen Blair: So they really were…

Barbara Ann Clark: Including Maravene Loeschke's first husband. Barbara Ann Clark: Yeah, we were- I was his resource teacher, Richard. Karen Blair: Interesting. He was a principal. Barbara Ann Clark: Uh-huh. At Grange elementary. Yep. So that was the leadership. And you had the budget piece because we had to maintain a title one budget.

Karen Blair: Sure. If you're getting federal funding. Barbara Ann Clark: Absolutely. Assessment was a big part of our job. Making sure kids hit benchmarks, way before the rest of the school system was doing that. The federal government always wanted to see benchmarks met, so yeah. Barbara Ann Clark: So it was great. Karen Blair: So somebody said…

Barbara Ann Clark: Yes, you better get your admin one. So I came here, received my administration one certificate. Karen Blair: 18 credits. Barbara Ann Clark: Because I already had a master's in reading, so I just needed those 18 credits. And then it was the process of, you know, the interviewing, getting into the pool, what they called the pool of eligible candidates. That's how they do it. You had to go through an interviewing process, and you formed a pool. And then when openings came, Barbara Ann Clark: you know, you were placed in jobs, so you didn't have any say on where you're going to be placed.

Barbara Ann Clark: So I drove for two years from Bel Air to Catonsville, West Town Elementary School. Two years. Karen Blair: As an assistant principal. Barbara Ann Clark: And then I was promoted to principal at Bedford Elementary in Pikesville, and that was during the day… It was under our Superintendent Stuart Berger. Barbara Ann Clark: So he had parents interview candidates and they selected the principal of their school, like the PTA or whatever. And so on. A hot- I'll never forget, it was July 7th, a hot summer day. I traveled to three different schools for these interviews with parent groups.

Barbara Ann Clark: And Bedford, which is a 99% African American school, selected me. Yeah. And it was a great school. It was. Challenging, very challenging, but a great school. Karen Blair: You fortunately had had experience with parents. And that kind of training sort of done mostly on your own, but… Barbara Ann Clark: So that was very helpful. And that's when I began, you know, the process of hiring teachers. When you're in a title one school, you always have openings, because they're tough schools. You know, the teachers come and go in those schools. Barbara Ann Clark: They burn out. So you always… It would be nothing to have 13 new teachers in a given year because of the transition and all that. Some didn't make it.

Barbara Ann Clark: So we always had new teachers, but that, I loved that part of my job. You know, training them, shaping them, having them look in instruction, lots of observations, lots of feedback, that sort of thing. So a lot of individual staff development, professional development, happened when you particularly had new teachers, Barbara Ann Clark: because you were in their rooms all the time, demonstration lessons, and that sort of thing. So I really enjoyed that part of my career. It was great. Karen Blair: That's something I'd like you to talk a little bit more about, is what you were looking for. I don't… I would assume that Baltimore County had some process for hiring where potential teachers were prescreened, Karen Blair: and then at some point you as a principal would interview them?

Barbara Ann Clark: Yes, they would send them out. Barbara Ann Clark: You would say you have a, you know, an opening, say in second grade or fifth grade or whatever. And then they would send you the names of people to interview. They'd already been, like you said, screened. They'd already looked at their GPA's, their transcripts, all that sort of thing. So you knew that they were ready to go, to be interviewed. Karen Blair: Right. And what were you looking for? Barbara Ann Clark: Well, first, I always looked at where did they student teach, because I was always in a challenging school.

Barbara Ann Clark: Hawthorne, being in Middle River, certainly was more Caucasian, whatever, but terribly deprived, a lot of addictions. You know, kids on the streets, that sort of thing. Whereas the climate of the African American school of Bedford, socioeconomically, they were varied, Barbara Ann Clark: and parents were very involved with their kids, and those kids you know, came to school prepared and ready to learn and they were bright, whereas this little pocket of children, they had, you know, pitiful lives, no warm meals, you know, came to school… Barbara Ann Clark: We had a full time social worker, Barbara Ann Clark: you know, just there providing their basic needs. So I was always curious in both schools, where did your student teach, what kind of environment did you come from? If you told me that you came from this higher economic area, you know, almost like a public private school, you might have a little trouble with the Bedford, which was definitely one culture,

Barbara Ann Clark: and certainly with the Middle River population. So I'd always kind of look at that, and then I want to know about other experiences with kids. Barbara Ann Clark: Were you someone that sought out, you know, the camp for special needs students, Barbara Ann Clark: did you try to subsidize, sort of, your experience with children if you were in kind of an Ivy League type, you know, public school setting and student teaching, did you, you know, volunteer at a camp? Did you work in the summer playground at a poor area? You know, that sort of thing. So that kind of told me a lot about them. Barbara Ann Clark: The thing that they needed to round out their experience.

Barbara Ann Clark: We talked about instruction and they of course would go through the process of how they plan a lesson or whatever, and I'd like to throw in a little curve, you know, what about Joey in the back, who really hasn't been watching you or listening or can't really get it that way? How would you differentiate instruction? And that was the part that I saw they were still weak in, Barbara Ann Clark: the part that I didn't have when I started, so I knew it was my job to make sure that I taught them those things they needed to fill that gap on differentiating instruction for kids. Barbara Ann Clark: Because they could all talk the talk, they knew how to answer those kinds of questions. Barbara Ann Clark: Then I would always ask them a question personally about a time in their life where they persevered, because I tell you, being a new teacher, perseverance is a top quality, because it's hard. You know, there's no way about it.

Barbara Ann Clark: It takes long hours and it's hard. And are you going to tell me about a time when you did that in your past? So then I'll know you're going to hang in there. Barbara Ann Clark: And you're going to stick this out because this is going to be a bumpy ride, so I would ask questions like that. Karen Blair: But they actually didn't do like a demonstration lesson or anything? Barbara Ann Clark: No, we did not do that. No, we did not. They all came with beautiful portfolios that you could… And I always looked at them because I know how hard they worked on them. It's a lot of work. So I would be very interested and you know, look at it and point out things, but…

Karen Blair: But you had your own set of questions. Barbara Ann Clark: I did. I did. Karen Blair: I know. So tell me about being a principal. You were at two different schools? Barbara Ann Clark: Two different schools.

Karen Blair: And what does the principal do? Barbara Ann Clark: Well, very seldom do you ever eat lunch. I was much thinner when I was a principal. Barbara Ann Clark: Then I came to Towson and I sit a lot. Barbara Ann Clark: Your day is… Every day is different. You would never know what you were going to face going into that building. You know, it might be a child that brought a knife to school. It could be an irate parent because you forgot to send the field trip slips home. The teacher didn't do what they were supposed to do, but I always stuck to my observation schedule, you know,

Barbara Ann Clark: because I was very deliberate and always making sure that I was in those classrooms and if there were a new teacher, and I had a lot of them, they had to be formally observed four times during that first half of the year, and we'd have many redos, because I made them redo it until they got it right. Barbara Ann Clark: So if parents came in and they were irate or crazy, or the kids were coming here, I would fit them in around my schedule because I was… To me, instruction was the key, and I needed to be there no matter what. Now if it was a life death situation, there's some bloodshed involved, of course. But I stuck to that. I always stuck to them. Barbara Ann Clark: That was very important. So you always got there early enough, because you could get the parents coming or the teacher coming down to complain about something, and you stayed late for those various reasons, you know. But every day was different, not predictable. And on the side, you still had to maintain a budget. Barbara Ann Clark: You know, you had to supervise the custodial staff, you had to make sure that parks and recs and groups that were using your building had access to it, and you had to do that PR in the community. You know, I was always fundraising kinds of things, particularly at Hawthorne, because it was such a needy, you know, area, trying to get a church to buy a townhouse

Barbara Ann Clark: in that community to set up as an outreach for kids to have a place to do homework, or a food bank, or that… So I was always, you know, that's where they needed that sort of thing more. Karen Blair: With all your own personal experience and coming through Towson's teacher education program, what do you think really are the most important ingredients? Pieces that should be in a prep program for teachers? Were there things in your own… Karen Blair: While you had talked about a few things that you sort of got serendipitously, rather than as part of the curriculum, what do you think that we need to provide our prospective teachers? Barbara Ann Clark: You know, it was tough because I, you know, I persevered. But those first two years of taking geography and the math and all that.

Barbara Ann Clark: I thought, what am I… Can I stick this out? I thought if they would just throw me a bone, like an education course in there within at least that second year to just, you know, get that appetite going, and to be successful, you know, it was very hard for me coming from being like an A student in high school coming here, taking history, Barbara Ann Clark: and you know, getting a C or even a D. I had to take a course over at Harford Community. That was devastating to me. But of course when I got in the education course, what I loved, I excelled. But I thought if they could have just thrown in one of those courses a little earlier, or had me go out to a school a little earlier, Barbara Ann Clark: I probably would have sweated through studying for that geography exam, knowing that this was going to lead me there. I think that's hard and I don't know if that's still an issue with young people, but I always wanted them to put those courses a little earlier. Barbara Ann Clark: I think they do a great job now because you stay in the school an extended period of time, junior year into your, you know, senior year, that sort of model that's going on now I think is very, you know beneficial. But boy, I could have used something a Little earlier.

Karen Blair: Yeah, well, I think, right, Karen Blair: and you had said you almost took over a classroom in your own experience as a student teacher, but that you'd had a teacher in place who had gotten those kids ready. Karen Blair: So that probably being a new teacher wasn't as difficult as if you had started this school year being a new teacher. Even though you weren't quite really a new teacher. Karen Blair: I mean, now they go back when teachers come back, which means they help set up the classroom, and they're in from the beginning.

Karen Blair: So that probably helps with things like learning classroom management. Barbara Ann Clark: It does. The whole organizational piece to being a teacher. Barbara Ann Clark: Some of my good friends are supervisors of interns, Kim Bunch is one of them, and we talk often. You know, about the benefits of what she does, and the two-year period where, you know, she teaches them in their junior year and she's with them for two years, and she knows when they're ready to graduate, that they will be a successful teacher. And I always love having her tell me, so tell me where your kids are. Where did your students end up? Barbara Ann Clark: Every one of them have teaching jobs this year, and she tracks them and follows them into that. And I think that is worthwhile. Beneficial. Now she is truly their mentor, not only the classroom supervising teacher, but Kim’s role with that two-year period of time is so beneficial. And she was a principal.

Barbara Ann Clark: And she hired teachers like I did, so she knew what she was looking for and what she expected out of this, you know, this group. And of course, there are always the students that are in there and teaching is really not their thing. And so then you have to make those decisions, Barbara Ann Clark: and strong decisions about saying this is not for you. Having those conversations is very difficult when they're, you know, in their junior year or whatever, but has to be made. Karen Blair: Well, and if she's been a principal, then she's probably had to do that her own teachers, her own faculty. Barbara Ann Clark: She has, absolutely. I think the model now is really a good model for training teachers.

Karen Blair: Well, let's get back to you and we left you as a principal. Barbara Ann Clark: Yes you did. I’m still in one piece. Ten and a half years. It was good. Absolutely. Karen Blair: And then a new opportunity presented itself. Barbara Ann Clark: Towson Learning Network. How about that? Yeah.

Karen Blair: Uh-huh. And so that came from somebody on campus. Barbara Ann Clark: Yep. Saw an opening. Barb Ellis, who started the Towson Learning Network. I was her resource teacher at Grange. I'll tell you, that was a great job. Talk about networking. It really was a great job. So she, of course, was here, you know. And when that job came open, she of course, was good friends with Karen Schaefer. Barbara Ann Clark: And I've been her resource teacher, so Carol Stewart was here. I've been her resource teacher. So they all said, oh, this would be a perfect job for Barb. So I couldn't turn it down. And it is a good job. Really is. Karen Blair: I would imagine that you are still using a whole bunch of your professional skills that you have accrued over time, being both a teacher and a principal and administrator,

Karen Blair: in what you're doing now. Two questions, or one request and that's that you tell us a little bit about the Towson Learning Network, Karen Blair: because it really has to do still with teacher preparation, just at the in-service level rather than preservice. Karen Blair: And then give us a sense of how this just was an appropriate and effective transition for you, using some of those skills that you learned both as a teacher and an and as an administrator. Barbara Ann Clark: Alrighty, I've been here now seven years.

Barbara Ann Clark: And when I started, we were just for the College of Ed, that was Towson Learning Network. We just did all College of Ed all over the state and it was, of course, partnerships with school systems, and the clincher for the deal was the fact that teachers would pay minimum out of pocket, Barbara Ann Clark: like anywhere from $50 to $150, and the school system, would pay the rest of the tuition at the current reimbursement rate for that school system. So the teachers, theoretically, were getting a master’s degree for a minimum amount of money, and we know the implications of that because all of us had to pay, of course, Barbara Ann Clark: full price for our master’s degree, so the cost was certainly there for teachers. It was great. Barbara Ann Clark: It was convenient because we were in the school systems. You know, the folks down in Montgomery County didn't have to drive to Towson University. We would deliver a full Master’s program to them. Howard County, PG, wherever we were going. And it would be full master’s,

Barbara Ann Clark: and, you know, we always said to them, it's the same rigor as you would have on campus. Barbara Ann Clark: That sort of thing. So a lot of that stemmed from the needs of school systems, whatever it was that they had a deficit in, whether it was special ed, school library media, if they needed more reading specialists, they would contact us, we would go and have a dialogue with the department person here. We were the liaison between the system and the university. Barbara Ann Clark: It was a great model, and we would help in those discussions because we could help them help the school system map out a course of study. Barbara Ann Clark: Because teachers want things done quickly, now, they want to finish in two years, not five. So we could help the department figure out a way of designing it. Take two courses in the semester. We had a lot of flexibility.

Barbara Ann Clark: So we would lay out different plans for school systems and this is the, you know, the proper sequence of courses, the department would agree, and so, you know, we made that connection. Barbara Ann Clark: So a lot of the skills we had, marketing wise, we were always marketing education as principals. We've used in school systems because sometimes they don't always think outside the box as to how to orchestrate this or how to get it down to a two year or three-year program instead of like a five year. And teachers didn't want to do that. So we've done a lot of that. Barbara Ann Clark: We go to school systems and oftentimes they don't know what Towson University offers. So we'll talk about the programs here on campus and how, pretty much, Barbara Ann Clark: we can bring anything to your school system within reason. And of course that's with conversations here on campus with the department chairs. So they often don't realize what we can offer teachers. So that's always been an eye-opening experience down there. And we always have, we have a protocol in place that we do an information meeting. We meet with the teachers.

Barbara Ann Clark: You know, we sense how they would like it to run, how they would like the courses set up, we make it work for them. We always are accessible when they have questions about the registration process, because that can be cumbersome at times. So it is that cost, it's convenient, Barbara Ann Clark: and it is the content, I mean, we talked to them about, you're going to have the same assessments as if you were here on campus, so that they know they are a part of Towson University. We explained that their one card works here on campus. They are considered alumni when they finished the program. So we truly are ambassadors for Towson University, Barbara Ann Clark: and of course, we believe in the quality of education we had here. And so it's kind of easy for us to go out there and sell it. Unfortunately, now we're not just College of Ed. You know, we've grown, and there was a need for that because not all the programs were as organized as the College of Ed. Barbara Ann Clark: So now we take care of all of the off-campus programs. I think in the fall, we registered about 3,600 students. Yeah. So it's in all areas.

Karen Blair: And that's all over the place. Barbara Ann Clark: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Karen Blair: Now, do you do things, getting back to education, do you do things for schools other than master’s degrees? Barbara Ann Clark: We do. We have post bac certificates, but we also have a relationship with our PDS schools, our professional development schools, where our interns are located. We often get calls, they have course work in their strategic plans that they do,

Barbara Ann Clark: and they'll call us. Can you offer a brain-based research class or a technology course? Because it's in our strategic plan. And so then we work with an individual school on setting that up just for the teachers in that school. So we do do single courses when needed requested. Barbara Ann Clark: I think probably the best are always the master programs because, you know, it's sustained across time. It's professional development across time. Uh, you know, the single course is not so much, it's something of interest at the time. Barbara Ann Clark: We don't always know if there's follow up or whatever, but we know when it's a full post bac or a master's program. You know that the teachers are getting a full education, but we do have that service for our PDS schools, which is good. Karen Blair: Yeah, I mean, that's the idea of PDS, is that a school can look at their strategic plan,

Karen Blair: and say this is sort of what we are seeing as a need, fairly consistent across faculty, and how nice to have a partner, you can call up and say, could you put something together for us? Barbara Ann Clark: Right, right. We do that readily. So that's good. Karen Blair: Yeah, absolutely. I'm really at the point where I want to ask you, is there something that we haven't talked about that we should… Barbara Ann Clark: Consider? For future teachers of America?

Barbara Ann Clark: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I don't know how many… Barbara Ann Clark: I haven't looked at all the statistics about professional teachers, are the teachers out there now going to stay 32 and a half years that our generation did, I don't know. Karen Blair: Well, the statistics sort of say that about half of them leave within five years. So somebody who's going to stay 25 or 30 years is almost, not quite, Karen Blair: but almost the rule rather than- I mean, the exception rather than the rule to stay that long, and you're talking about PDS. That's one of the reasons I was interested in that,

Karen Blair: and what you do in relationship to that is one of the things I think that we're hoping will change that statistic. And actually I think the College of Ed and the Center for Professional Practice have examined this over time and find that graduates of Towson do in fact stay longer. Karen Blair: We're not quite certain all the reasons why, but I think some of the things that you mentioned certainly are part of it. This mentoring, getting familiar with what it's all about earlier in their preservice training, all those things that you've mentioned certainly seemed to make a difference. Barbara Ann Clark: Well, I know when we traveled to the various counties, Barbara Ann Clark: they're always pleased, and they go out of their way to tell us how much they say that our Towson interns are ahead of others. You know, that they come, more prepared and ready to step into that role as teacher of record than some other… And we have a lot of business.

Barbara Ann Clark: Howard County particularly. Barbara Ann Clark: We have lots of master’s programs down there, and they always say how our interns are always a step ahead of some of the other universities. Karen Blair: That's nice to hear. And so what would you say? What wisdom would you share for someone thinking about a career as a teacher? Barbara Ann Clark: Well, like you have to be willing to work hard. It is a career, you know, it's not a nine to five job.

Barbara Ann Clark: And certainly, you've got to love children. There are days when people would say, well, I don't know if I really love kids, but I want them to learn. And I can make them learn. Barbara Ann Clark: Well, no, you’ve got to love kids, Barbara Ann Clark: because kids are quirky and they're going to, you know, work on you. So you have to love kids. But it is a career and a dedication. Barbara Ann Clark: And it does take over your life. You know, it is consuming. Long hours, that sort of thing, but the benefits are incredible. To see a young child, you know, be able to read a complete sentence on their own or to see a high school student be able to solve an algebra problem. There's nothing like it when that light bulb goes off and they get it, you'll never have a more rewarding job.

Barbara Ann Clark: I often tell that to people, Barbara Ann Clark: But it's only, it could be one or two out of a group of 15 or so. You know, those little perks and those light bulbs go up. It's not all the time and every day, you know, you’ve got to make that happen. So I say to them, you've got to dedicate a lot, and you make a lot of sacrifices even in your personal life. There are. Barbara Ann Clark: That's tough. Barbara Ann Clark: I always get a little concerned at the young administrators, the principals out there that are raising babies and doing that job. I'm thinking, somebody out there is getting cheated somewhere. I'm not sure who is doing that.

Barbara Ann Clark: But it's a great career, very rewarding. Makes an impact on society. It does. Karen Blair: Yeah. Barbara Ann Clark: That's all I have to say. How about that? Karen Blair: I think that's terrific.