Interview with Anthony Marchione

Anthony Marchione graduated from the Maryland State Teachers College at Towson in 1955 with a bachelor's degree in education. Doctor Marchione served the Baltimore County Public Schools for more than forty years as a teacher, assistant principal,

principal, a central office administrator, and finally as Superintendent. These are his reflections. Doctor Marchione, thank you so much for taking your time today

to come in and talk to us about your preparation to become a teacher here at Towson University and your subsequent very lengthy career in education. I think your story will add greatly to our understanding of

teacher education at Towson across time, and I think a good place to begin is in the beginning. So would you share with us a little bit about your early social context, where you grew up, what kinds of ideas you were

having as you went through school, about what you might do when you graduated? Well, I'll start. I was born in Baltimore City and I was born into an immigrant

family and first generation American. My mother and father came from Italy and actually, in the household, until I started school, everyone spoke Italian. So I did too, and didn't learn to speak English until I

started kindergarten and my mother learned at the same time. So that's early beginning. I went to two years of parochial school and then all the rest in public schools in Baltimore County.

Went to Dundalk Elementary and then Kenwood High School is where I graduated. My yearbook states I wanted to be a math teacher or an engineer.

This is your high school yearbook? Yes. So I was thinking of teaching, but I wanted to be an engineer primarily and applied and was accepted at Hopkins, but then my

parents couldn't afford the tuition. So I ended up at Towson where, you know, it was practically free. So that was fine with me because being a math teacher was

one of my goals. So I started teaching at Golden Ring Junior High School. But let me talk about Towson. Please do.

OK. Because you were very actively involved not only in your preparation to become a teacher, but you were class president, I think, for at least three or four years.

Yes. And you were involved in a variety of other things as well. So we would love you to talk about your experience here. Yes, Towson was at the time much smaller obviously than it is

now. And the the programming was primarily for elementary education. That's interesting.

And when the counties, the state moved to having junior high schools and they put in core, I don't know if you've ever heard the term core that was English, social studies. And it was supposed to be a blend of the two

in order to be a transition from elementary school into junior high. They wanted to prepare core teachers because most people were either prepared in English or social studies and not in

core. And, in fact, the best core teachers initially were elementary teachers, former elementary teachers. So Towson instituted a program for preparing core teachers

primarily, but within a few years they also added math- science. And that's what I did, I went into that program to become a math- science teacher.

So I had all the math courses they were offering at the time and then proceeded to get involved in the school activities and of course, a lot of activities. This was a fun place for for us at the time.

So I was class president for three years. I was on the Tower Light, as you pointed out earlier. I was on the track team. And... So this was a rich experience.

For me. You know, and having leadership positions I think helped, you know, that was part of who I became eventually. Absolutely.

It was not what my plan was for me. In fact, when I graduated, I wanted to go back to becoming an engineer. I still had that in my mind.

So I had gotten married in April of our senior year and my wife Dione agreed that she would continue working for me to go back to school. But I had a two year commitment with the county.

Before we go on to that, what do you recall about your education courses? Do you recall the nature of them, whether they were sort of philosophical, theoretical, or very practical?

Very few. I hate to say this, but you want to hear what really happened. I do. The education courses were not very practical.

I see. There were a few exceptions. There was a math teacher, Doctor Vopel. He was our class advisor, also, because he was so popular. He modeled teaching.

He modeled the kind of teacher I wanted to be. Doctor Abendroth, who taught reading, but he also modeled the kind of teaching, and there were others there in the various departments, not just... But in education,

those were the two. Most of the others did not model the kind of teacher I wanted to be, unfortunately. Where I learned to become a teacher was when I

student taught. I had two excellent supervising teachers in the classroom. Now, where did you do your student teaching? Well, because the junior high program here was to

prepare core teachers. Right. All of us had to have a student teaching experience in core. I see. Even though I was a math-science major, so I did my core student

teaching at Towson Junior High and Marguerite Davison was the supervising teacher. And she, in fact, I modeled my teaching to the way she did it. It was... She had personality and she had command

of the class, she had discipline and the kids loved her. And when I first got in front of the classroom, I simply tried to imitate that woman and it worked.

And then the second one... So, that's in Towson area. And the second one at Stemmers Run, completely different socioeconomic group of kids. Absolutely.

And Dottie Fisher was my supervising teacher and she was an excellent math-science teacher. And I, again, just followed her lead. So that's where I learned to teach.

So when I became a first year teacher and walked into the classroom, I felt prepared because of those two experiences. Now you had said you had this two year obligation, but you

were married and your wife was going to continue to work so you could go back to school, right? And that was something it sounds like you really wanted to do. I did, I really did.

And so what happened? Well, what happened was I was fortunate in my first year to have two excellent supervisors. One was the math-science supervisor from the central

office, Sam Herman, and the other was my principal, Sam Brown, and they were both in their first year in their jobs. So they were relatively young too. And they were very encouraging to me and saying you don't want

to leave teaching, there's a bright future for you. So my plan then was to, well, obviously I stayed, it passed my second year and didn't go back to school and I wanted to be a math supervisor just like Sam Herman, but those jobs did not

come open. And then after... I became a department chairman in my third year. That's very fast. Yes, it was.

And back then it was a math- science combination. So I was supervising a large department and part of the job was to help first-year teachers, work with the probationary teachers.

I'd just finished being a probationary teacher, but I was helping them and observing and giving feedback. So I started doing that early on. So the first job that became available was, I thought I would

become then a vice principal. We call them vice principals at the time. And so that was a comfortable transition for you.

You really were looking to to do something administrative. Yes, but, see, by that time I had a family and having twelve-month employment was very important and administration offered that. Yeah.

So that became what tilted it for me, going in that direction. But I always had it in the back of my mind eventually I was going to become a math teacher in college. So Bob Hanson was in our graduating class and he was in

my group of students. It was a small group of students who were math majors here at the time. He became a professor here, you know Bob Hanson.

Yes, I do. And I always told Bob I always aspired to be doing what he was doing and and teaching math at the college level. Well, that didn't happen.

So anyway, after I was department chairman, and it was five years, I became administrative assistant, which is like the second vice principal in a school. Went to Sudbrook, was there for two years and then became a

vice principal at the Woodlawn Junior High. Was there for three years and really learned to be a principal there. Had a good model in terms of the principal.

[inaudible] Now, at this time, were you working on a master's degree or did you have to do some kind of special preparation coursework or something to become a principal?

Yes, yes, I got a master's degree at the University of Maryland and... I got that in '59, you know, just night school and summers. So, I know now certainly you have to go through

a process and you have to go through training and usually you have a master's degree associated with it. Yeah, I had my master's degree in '59. So I had this certification to be a principal. After being an

assistant principal, vice principal for three years, then I got my first principalship. I see. And where was that?

And that's at North Point Junior High, again, in the southeast area. And most people at the time thought that was a, you know, a challenging assignment, but it worked out for me.

I was there for two years, and I became principal at Sparrows Point High School. And that's sort of the same area. Same area. Sparrows Point.

Yeah. That's down in that end of the county. Yeah. Southeast part.

And how did that first year go as a principal? I had a good year. Yeah, it was just what I wanted to do. By that time, I knew I wanted to be a school administrator.

So by that point, you had decided this higher ed thing was really not the direction you wanted to go. Well, I thought about it for retirement. I see.

I thought, you know, now I'll finish this part my life. And actually, as I think back, the the most satisfying position of all the positions I had was being principal of the school. Because you had the most autonomy and you could do...

It was your place to be what you wanted it to be. And that's not true in other positions, there are always too many other people trying to tell you what to do.

Well, were you in a position as a principal to hire teachers? Yes, I was and train teachers and, you know, give feedback about their instruction. Yes. One of the things I'm curious about is

what you were looking for. One of the things that we're always debating and discussing is the qualifications we're looking for in a good teacher, and as a principal,

what kinds of things were you looking for? First thing for anyone, the very first thing you have to find out about the person and and determine did they like the kids they're working with.

It's unfortunate there were at the time, I hope it's not still true, too many teachers who did not like the kids and that's sad. It's sad for everybody concerned and when I discovered that I

worked very hard to get them to see that and resign rather than my going through the process of firing them. The other would be how well they engaged the students in the learning process and didn't like to see a teacher just stand up

in front of the classroom and just lecture all the time. So there were two of the primary areas of observation that I had. And how long were you at Sparrow's Point? Three years.

So I was a principal for five years altogether and then I decided to get my doctorate and I went to University of Maryland, took a year of sabbatical, And when I came back, I was supposed to go back to the same

assignment, but Baltimore County did not have enough principalships. There were three of us on sabbatical, three high school principals and

they got the schools because they had more seniority than I did. But then I ended up getting a job in central office as a director of staff and community relations where one of my

primary jobs was to develop training, leadership training for principals. And at the time we were also focusing on the transition, the school system was going through with the population, back

in '68, it was a population, African American population of about 3.4%, but it rapidly grew and was growing, and we needed to have our administrators be sensitive to

that kind of change. And I was put in charge of that mostly because of the program I took at the University of Maryland. And what was that?

It was a doctorate in educational administration with emphasis on human relations with Dr. Newell, Dr. Clarence Newell, who was really focused on that. Tony, was that position in place before you were asked to fill

it, or was that sort of a new position in Baltimore County? It was new. It was new. So you were just sort of trying to assess what was needed and do it kind of thing?

Yes. The, well, the school system had created a committee, diverse committee made-up of parents and administrators and teachers that I wasn't a part of, the committee on racial and

culture concerns. Mary Ellen Satterly was the chairman of that committee. So the report had come out and the board had accepted it while I was on sabbatical.

Many of the recommendations from that report pointed to having staff development for administrators, training for teachers eventually, and that, all of those, and doing a lot of things with the community, you know, the outreach to the

community groups that would support that effort. And that's what I was assigned to do. And the other part of the job which, I was working with Bob Dubel, he was my direct supervisor and the school system

at the time was just starting negotiations with the teachers' association and formal negotiations. So, and then we had all these other employee groups that had to have, not contracts, but... Some kind of agreement?

Yeah, agreements of understanding with all of them. And there were about seven or eight. And I was put in charge of all those except for teachers.

Bob Dubel did that one. So I was doing negotiating, which I never really liked, but... Well, human relations, I guess that sort of comes... It was related.

But the strategies for negotiations aren't necessarily the same as as trying to get along with people, have people... Exactly.

Were these negotiations something that were going on prior? I mean, did you have an active teachers association and employees association?

Yeah, they were meet and confer before they became formalized negotiations. And it was always reduced to an agreement. It was just a memorandum of understanding you had and not

a signed agreement. And yes, teachers were doing it with the school system. Then it became formalized. So eventually all these other groups I'm talking about,

cafeteria workers, bus drivers, secretaries, custodial staff, the maintenance people, each one had their own group. And so eventually they got the right to negotiate formally also years later.

So that was kind of a job you didn't anticipate, but... And how long were you in that position? I was in that position about three years and then I became an area Superintendent, the northwest area of the county.

It was when, that's the position I really wanted and eventually got to be area Superintendent. Right. And what does an area Superintendent do?

Since this was one that you wanted. Yeah, well, it was, you know, a step up. The county's divided in five geographic areas. And because it's so large, they divide it up into

administrative areas and each one has area Superintendent and the area Superintendent supervised principals, essentially. And there were about 30-some principals in each area.

You know, the county is large, when I was Superintendent it was 163. I think it still was, maybe a few more now. 163 schools. So you divide that up in five areas. And so I was the direct supervisor and evaluated

principals and had to visit schools and observe them do their jobs which is a very important position. I think it's, I don't know whether it's still organized.

It's organized similar to that, but not exactly. So you're talking about thirty schools maybe. Yeah, in the Northwest, I had 33 schools, you know, K through 12.

So you were doing a lot of traveling? Yes, a lot, visiting schools, a lot of traveling. Yep. And what was most rewarding about that position?

What did you feel good about? Seeing principals improve, that... And of course, prior to that I had done the training, you know, I had...

That's right. I'd been involved in the leadership training program. I created the phases one, two, and three with the help of some of the other staff people.

In fact, George Hall was one who was on my committee that helped create all that. But I was in charge of it. And so I had established the expectations for principals

through that training. And so as area Superintendent, I was observing what the expectations were. On a model that you oversaw develop. Helped to develop.

Yes. Wow. Phases one, two, and three. Could we go back to that a minute? Yes, yes.

And tell us a little bit about that process. Yeah, phase... This was all part of that... It was initiated because, remember that report on racial

culture concerns, we did not have enough African Americans who even applied for... And all of our administrators were white except those who were in... The school system did not change from the dual system.

You know, we had a black school system they called the negro school system and the white, and in 1968 we started to dismantle, didn't finish it until in the '70s. So they were the only black administrators, those who were

moved from all black schools to integrated schools. So the challenge was how do you get more black teachers prepared to be administrators? And we created this program, three-phase program primarily to

get to that. But then we were training everyone. So the first phase was to have them discover... Anybody could apply and the included. They had to discover what their

skills were. And we had eight training sessions where we presented human relations skills and we had in-out baskets that, in fact, the state had an assessment center that included

many of the kind of activities that we did. Isn't that interesting? And wasn't my idea originally. In fact, Montgomery County had been doing it.

And then we simply went there and used that as a model to develop ours. So the first time we had it, we had this, over 500 people showed up to be in phase one and we divided them up into classes

of about 25 to 30 and we taught the eight sessions. At the end of it, there was an assessment and we gave that back to them. The assessment, based on how they responded to... It

was mostly like an interest survey. And did they still want to do this? This is what's involved in being administrator. And so they self selected to go in phase two and phase two was

specifically a course where they got credit from the University of Maryland in super... It was a course in supervision, basically, and we developed that and got approval through University of Maryland and

that became phase two. Phase three was the selection process. I see. And we had an elaborate process of being interviewed and taking

tests and put all that data together. And then we had a point system and we would have a cutoff and we started getting African American teachers who came to the top.

So we created a pool of about fifty people and then we had, continued to have training of the fifty and we would do that on Saturdays. Became, they nicknamed it Charm School because those people were the ones we went to be promoted to either a supervisory

job or a school administrative job. And you thought they were sufficiently polished to be able to do the task. So of course it would be called Charm School.

Yes. So you find yourself now in the northwest part of the county and you're getting to see these principals who have been selected through a process you had a whole lot to do with.

And what were you thinking about your principal, your 30 school principals that you had, 33 you said? Yes. Well, I thought they were well prepared.

I think we had a really talented group of principals that, you know, there are few that you have to counsel out of the position, but I've always been impressed with the talent in Baltimore County, really have.

That's great. So here you are in the position you had aspired to, but for some reason you didn't stay there forever. No.

Well, I was offered the, when Bob Dubel became Superintendent, he wanted to elevate the importance of this staff in community relations, dealing with community and all this training I was just talking about.

And he elevated that to an associate Superintendent, which is just below third level, I guess, there's a Superintendent deputy and then there was an associate in charge of instruction, one in charge of

facilities, one in sort of charge of finance, and this one in charge of staff and committed relations. So because it was a promotion and it was doing what I was doing as director previously but enhanced, public relations became

part of it too. So then I did that for a number of years before I became deputy. Then Bob Dubel eventually asked me to be deputy. So I was deputy with him for nine years and then three years

with the next Superintendent who got fired. So, in that, so what did you do in that position where you're the associate and you're in charge of community relations because

you were there for some time. Yeah. And now you're... But now it's not just sort of maybe some of the things you

were doing in Northwest, but now the whole county. That's right. Yeah, I was, really took the responsibility for, a lot of responsibility for getting involved in the promotion

process and selection process, I should say, of people in the pool. I got to know them very well, would visit them in their schools.

And... And so when the area superintendents were discussing who was eligible for the next position, actually really look at the pool of vice principals who was going to be assistants

and then the pool of teachers who were going to be vice principals. So I focused a lot of attention on getting to know them personally

so I could actually advise an area Superintendent, I have been in that school, I have observed that person, and I think I would recommend this person. And of course they knew them too, but they just knew them

from their area, where I had the county view. And it was one more piece of information that you provided so that, you know, that helps to confirm what they're thinking. Right.

So you wind up being deputy, deputy Superintendent. And what in heaven's name does the deputy Superintendent do? The deputy Superintendent supervised the area Superintendent.

OK. It's the number two person in the system. And I conducted the staff meetings of the entire Superintendent staff.

The Superintendent attended, but I got the agenda together. The deputy was the, I guess the overall administrator of the system, the day-to-day stuff. The Superintendent focuses on public stuff and policy stuff.

And it's, so the day-to-day things, all the other associates also reported to me. I mean, they reported to Superintendent, but I'm the one who dealt with them day in and day out.

Exactly. Sure. A nuts and bolts kind of guy. Now you mentioned that you served under Bob Dubel and then there was a Superintendent who replaced him but who was not in

that position for too long. No, no. In fact, I think they wanted to fire him after one year, but then he lasted for three.

I had applied for the job and they didn't want me. I was a clone of Bob Dubel. Well, sure. They wanted to change.

And you were an in-house person. Yeah. You grew up through the system. Exactly.

So I was prepared to leave. In fact, Bob Dubel had, because he had retired, he had gotten a position, part time position at University of Maryland and he was ready to turn it over to me because he...

Anyway, teaching courses, administrative courses there. In fact, the last two years I was in my position, I was teaching courses at university. Well, I taught courses in administration at Morgan and

University of Maryland and... Well, who better to do it than somebody who's had that kind of experience? So I was prepared to leave when I didn't get the job of Superintendent. Right.

But Stuart Berger, who had just come in, asked me, he wanted me to stay. And I said, I don't understand it, but yeah. So I stayed and pretty much did what I was doing.

Well, you had said that you were sort of responsible for daily, the nuts and bolts kinds of things. So maybe he was very wise in his insistence. He probably assessed that. Said, I need somebody who can do

this, who knows all of this. So he got in trouble with the community. He got in trouble with every organization out there, you know, with the Teachers Association.

He just rubbed everybody the wrong way. And he's a bright guy, great ideas, but he was abrasive and no one liked him. That's actually what it was.

So I continued and then his third year, before, at the end of his third year, they had already fired him, but I didn't know that. So that the summer before would have been his last year,

I was on vacation and the board president called me and said I need to talk to you. I had no idea what it was. He called me because as a deputy, they needed someone to

take over because he was leaving, I think that next day. And so that's how I became Superintendent and filled out his term that last year of his term and then had another term. Reappointed.

Yeah, I was reappointed to a full term. So that's how I got my five years in as Superintendent. Interesting. And so you have said before that a Superintendent really is

the person who interacts with groups and the public. Yes. Could you elaborate on that a little bit? Yes, of course, the number one group to to work with is

the board and, and Baltimore County has one of the largest boards in the state. Interesting. It just evolved that way.

Partly they added members of the board because they wanted to get rid of Stuart Berger. Yeah, the politicians, the elected officials do that. So it's a large board.

And is that an appointed board? Well, then, it's been appointed up until now. Now they're talking about having the part of it elected. No, they were appointed by the governor, but the

County Executive recommends some people who get on it. So working with that group is very important. The other important group are the elected officials in the county, the County Council, County Executive and

all the legislators, and they all, because money comes from... That's where all the money comes from. Most, 75% of the money came from the county, and the other 25, there's about 23% from the state.

They all feel they have a stake, which they do, but they also feel they want to tell you what to do. So that's the challenge. Well, sure, because they've all been students and...

Yes, so as Superintendent, you have twelve bosses on the board, had dozens of these other people. I mean, most of them are really pretty nice people and reasonable.

But once in a while there's going to be someone who has an agenda. And who's very vocal about it. That's right. And they want you to do what they want done.

So working through that is probably the biggest challenge. Sure, absolutely. How big is Baltimore County public schools? You had said a hundred and... Well, 163, it's still around that,

then 160-some schools, K through 12, including special schools. And at the height when I went into the central office, we had as many as 134,000. And then the enrollment declined, when I retired, about

110,000. It's still a large school system. Certainly is. So it's one of the largest.

I think it's for a long time it was the 17th or 19th largest in the country. I would think so, yeah. Yeah.

Because it's a county system and a lot of states do it by smaller units, localities. So wow. What was most rewarding in that position?

As Superintendent? Yes. We, with the help of the staff, I had a very talented staff. Of course, I selected practically all of them, and we made a point

of focusing on instruction. So, I picked area superintendents who really understood instruction, who I required to go in and observe principals, observe and give feedback to principals about

their skills and observing and giving feedback to teachers. And I had a really good group. And then the other really practical goal we had is to

improve student achievements. Very, very straightforward. And we set a goal for ourselves to have every second grader read on grade level at the end of the second grade

based on the testing we were using. And so once we started that focus, and by the time I left, it was about 98% of the kids, when we started, it was only about the upper 80s.

You know, the reading on grade level. It was... And all of our achievement scores, and then of course, all the other state tests, we improved. So I felt good about how the school system improved in

achievement across the board, especially getting kids to read at the end of grade two. Very important because we know once they get behind, that gap just grows. Well, what haven't we talked about?

Well, what I did after I retired. Yes. Yeah. Well, I did think about going back to teaching. In fact, I was offered a position here with Mike Hickey.

And when it started, I was going to teach some courses here with Mike. And that summer after I retired, I said, well, Mike, I'm going to postpone it for the semester, for the summer.

I'll start next semester. I postponed it twice and I said, I really don't want to do that. Uh huh.

Isn't that interesting? Because that had sort of been in your past, something you were thinking maybe you would like to do. And wouldn't that have been fabulous? Two

county school superintendents. And it was all set to go. He and I had meetings and, you know, and he's still doing it, I think. He's still here.

I know, he certainly is. So I didn't do much, I didn't do anything professional for those, about three years. But then the County Executive called me in and...

So much for retirement. Yes. Invited me, asked me to be the county administrative officer.

And most people don't know what that is. I have not a clue. OK, Baltimore County, of course has, you have a County Executive, and that person is in charge of the county and running the

county. However, the County Executive has, like I described the deputy Superintendent, has an administrative officer. It's in the law. It's the highest ranking non elected

official in county government. I see. It's like a manager of a city. They call them managers and we call them County Executive.

So, the administrative office supervises all the departments, all the department heads. So it includes fire department, police department, social services, maintenance, everything.

So I had 25, 26 departments that I supervised. So I did that for four years, his first term, and after that decided, you know, I had spent 45 years in the system. I know.

And so I did that for four years, from 2003 to about 2008. So then I really did retire. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see how long that lasts.

Somebody will invite you to do something else, I'm sure. Well, they have, but I have resisted. Well, good for you. I mean, this is your retirement.

So we want you to do what you're happy doing. But I think this is really testimony to the fact that people understand your gift in terms of human relations and getting people together and managing to somehow produce a

positive outcome. And those people are hard to find. So you may get another phone call here and there about that, I'm sure.

Is there anything that we've forgotten that you want to share? Well, just one thing about Towson, and that is Towson is a big...

It's a big part of, of my life, but also my family. My mother worked here as a... My mother was a seamstress. She learned to be a seamstress in Italy and worked as a seamstress at alteration departments of Stewart's,

remember, for many, many years she was in charge of it. And then she, at the end of her career, she got a job here in the drama department, made costumes. Really?

So she worked with Georgia Baker. Sure. And with Doctor Gillespie. And among her students was Maravene, who knows her well. Wow. That's special.

So that's my mother's connection to it. But then three of my children took... My three children, they took courses here. My son just went one semester and then went to University of

Maryland. My daughter, one daughter, took two years in nursing, then transferred to University of Maryland, and then my other daughter became a teacher, phys ed teacher and is still

teaching and and still working in Baltimore County. Then I have four grandchildren who have gone through. Really? Yeah.

So I'm still connected. You certainly are very well attached to this institution. That's special. We always ask one last question, and you've had

experience in doing this by virtue of your hiring teachers or choosing teachers as a principal. What would you say to someone? Well, you must have said something to your granddaughter,

to someone who's interested possibly in becoming a teacher, choosing teaching as their career. Well, I'd go back to what I said earlier and the first question is, do you really like to work with kids?

Do you want to be with young people or children? And that's got to be #1 in my mind, that their interest in being around young people and wanting to work with them, having an interest in the subject matter is

important. Yes. And they have to have the skills for that. But I think primarily they've got to want to work with the person they're, who were there in

front of them each day. Anything else? Yeah. If I were interviewing a teacher, what kinds of

things I would ask? Well, I'm saying, you know, if I'm thinking, say I'm a relative and I'm thinking about becoming a teacher now in 2014, what kind of advice would you give me? And certainly you said, first question you'd ask me is do you

want to work with kids, right? Do you enjoy their company? And I would see that as very important. But do you think that this, would you recommend this as a

field to go into or... Well, going back to what I started to say, a love of learning is very important. Do they love to, do they like learning? Do they like reading?

Do they like wanting to know new things? And are they curious about the world? I think a teacher who has that, if they have a curiosity about learning, I think students pick that up.

So if they're not curious about the world around them and about learning new things, then it's probably not in the cards for them to want to be a teacher. I think I learned as much or more when I was teaching.

Every time I taught, whatever I taught, I learned more about it than... Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'd learned about math when I had to teach it. I really learned about math when I had to teach it.

So I think a love of learning, you got to love the kids and be willing to do a lot of hard work because teaching is hard work, long hours and hard work. Gratifying nonetheless?

Very gratifying. To know that you have communicated, have gotten the student to learn what it is you wanted them to learn. That is, there's nothing feels better, really feels good. That's why we do it, right? Right.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming... My pleasure. ...and having a conversation with us. This has been great fun.

Thank you.